Poisoned British Double-Agent

[Virgil Showlion]

Referring to British double-agent Sergei Skripal. If you're not familiar with the story, you can catch up here.

The current theory (via the AP):

In a rare joint statement, President Donald Trump, President Emmanual Macron, Chancellor Angela Merkel and Prime Minister Theresa May say "there is no plausible alternative explanation" to Russian responsibility in the March 4 attack in England.

They base this on the fact that Mr. Skripal operated in Russia (he was fact was captured there and returned to the UK as part of a prisoner exchange) and that the nerve toxin used to poison him was developed in Russia.

P.M. May in particular is calling the attack an act of war and seemingly chomping at the bit for retaliation. Chancellor Merkel and Pres. Macron initially demanded more evidence, but were apparently won over by a phone call by P.M. May yesterday. Britain's official opposition is still demanding more evidence. Russia vehemently denies any involvement.

I must admit, I'm also skeptical. We're in a situation where anti-Russia hysteria is at its peak, Russia is under intense scrutiny, the Russian election is in full swing, and they're about to host the World Cup. And Pres. Putin, an intelligent man well-trained in spycraft, decides this is the optimal moment to assassinate a British ex-spy living openly in London since 2010... with a Russian nerve toxin? A man that he'd returned in a prisoner exchange a decade earlier?

Just... what?

Does this make sense to anybody here? If so, I'd welcome an explanation.

Bear in mind, Mr. Skripal was a double-agent for years. We have no idea how many enemies he made during that time. If he was an effective spy, he was no doubt responsible for at least a few deaths, imprisonments, etc. Yet we have world leaders jointly claiming "there is no plausible alternative explanation" to a Russian-state-sanctioned hit?

I simply can't believe Pres. Putin would be so foolish as to carry out this kind of attack at this time, unless there's a whole world behind Mr. Skripal that... for some reason... necessitated acting at this exact moment in history, using a messy chemical weapon (that supposedly hasn't been used since WWII) that screams "Russia!"   If Pres. Putin was going to be so brazen, why not lob a Russian mortar into Skripal's apartment building? It would provoke the same response.

What say you?

[billisonboard]

I think we need to look for connections to the Clinton Foundation. You know how the Clintons like to murder people.

But yeah, Virgil Showlion, I wonder the same thing.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 15, 2018 9:57:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I think we need to look for connections to the Clinton Foundation. You know how the Clintons like to murder people.

But yeah, Virgil Showlion , I wonder the same thing.

Actually, the conspiracysphere is on high alert because Mr. Skripal and Christopher Steele (of "Trump Dossier" fame) apparently knew each other quite well and met frequently, even in recent years.

As I see it, this is an understandable coincidence. They were both British ex-agents, operating in Russia, around the same time period. I doubt MI-6 is so extensive that two such agents wouldn't have run into each other.

[billisonboard]

Maybe it was a hide in plain sight type operation. Make it so obvious that no way could it be that. (That is really stretching)

[thyme4change]

Im.not sure anti-Russia hysteria is at the peak. The cold war was worse, and I think it will get worse in the next few years.

[happyhoix]

I'm thinking at it backwards - who would have the nerve gas on hand, and who would want to use it on this particular person?

Russia has a history of murdering inconvenient people. And Russia is among a limited number of players who has access to nerve gas.

However, could some other actor have done it purposefully, trying to frame the Russians? I've read enough spy novels to believe that's possible. Possibly a Russian Putin rival. Possibly a Ukrainian trying to make the Russians look bad. Even some rogue Brit or American forces trying to destabilize Russia. Or China also trying to destabilize Russia.

To fit in with the current Mueller investigation - what if this Russian was Steele's source on the Russian blackmail material and Russia wanted him gone before he handed over any documentation?

With all the closed circuit cameras in Britain, didn't they get some shots of what the assailants look like? It would help if they could actual ID the suspects.

[Spellbound454]

Well he has...since Novichok was made in Russia

We have had an attempted assassination in the middle of a British city ....with one of the most deadly nerve agents known to man.
Loads of stuff is contaminated..... and the poor public don't know whether they have been in contact with it or not.-

There have been lots of odd deaths of Russians in the UK..... People falling out of windows or jumping under trains.
and Litvinenko of course.... was poisoned by polonium in a drink of tea.

but this is reckless beyond belief.

Someone is completely running amok.

[Virgil Showlion]

My bet would be on somebody--likely a Russian--burned by Mr. Skripal. Or perhaps somebody with a bone to pick with Russia and a taste for war.

But Russian state involvement makes no sense to me, for all the reasons in the OP and in Spellbound's post. As an assassination attempt, it's clumsy, inefficient, high-collateral-damage, ill-timed, unnecessary, counterproductive, easy to link to Russia, inexplicable, .... and the list goes on. As I said, the Kremlin would have done better to lob a mortar into the man's apartment. At least there wouldn't be chemical weapons charges in that case.

Perhaps Pres. Putin has gone off his nut, but I don't see it. And he'd have to be off his nut to order something like this.

[billisonboard]

Mar 15, 2018 18:34:01 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

... And he'd have to be off his nut to order something like this.

But might he order it without micromanaging the means and some fool care it out in this way?

[Spellbound454]

Mar 15, 2018 18:34:01 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

My bet would be on somebody--likely a Russian--burned by Mr. Skripal. Or perhaps somebody with a bone to pick with Russia and a taste for war.

But Russian state involvement makes no sense to me, for all the reasons in the OP and in Spellbound's post. As an assassination attempt, it's clumsy, inefficient, high-collateral-damage, ill-timed, unnecessary, counterproductive, easy to link to Russia, inexplicable, .... and the list goes on. As I said, the Kremlin would have done better to lob a mortar into the man's apartment. At least there wouldn't be chemical weapons charges in that case.

Perhaps Pres. Putin has gone off his nut, but I don't see it. And he'd have to be off his nut to order something like this.

Yes Putin could have lost control of this agent........ although he was given a opportunity to explain and just chose a glib denial.

We certainly have the Russian Mafia here ... We have loads of oligarchs who got rich on the backs ordinary citizens...

...and of all the ways to kill someone, this is pretty lame. (assassins normally make it look like suicide ... and there has been several odd deaths)

but this action bears a label, someone is trying to say something whilst running amok in someone else's Country.

Putin is to be held accountable because this nerve agent was made in Russia........ and deployed on our sovereign soil.
It could be gangsters but ultimately the guy at the helm is accountable whether it was one of his cronies or not.

[Tennesseer]

Keep in mind the assassination of Kim Yong Un's half-brother, Kim Jong Nam, in Maylasia last year .  He was killed by two women who placed a handkerchief over his face which contained  the VX nerve agent.   The U.S. concluded North Korea ordered the kill.  No reason to believe that is not true.

There are various ways of taking out your enemy beside making it look like a suicide.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 15, 2018 18:57:05 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Mar 15, 2018 18:34:01 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

My bet would be on somebody--likely a Russian--burned by Mr. Skripal. Or perhaps somebody with a bone to pick with Russia and a taste for war.

But Russian state involvement makes no sense to me, for all the reasons in the OP and in Spellbound's post. As an assassination attempt, it's clumsy, inefficient, high-collateral-damage, ill-timed, unnecessary, counterproductive, easy to link to Russia, inexplicable, .... and the list goes on. As I said, the Kremlin would have done better to lob a mortar into the man's apartment. At least there wouldn't be chemical weapons charges in that case.

Perhaps Pres. Putin has gone off his nut, but I don't see it. And he'd have to be off his nut to order something like this.

Yes Putin could have lost control of this agent........ although he was given a opportunity to explain and just chose a glib denial.

We certainly have the Russian Mafia here ... We have loads of oligarchs who got rich on the backs ordinary citizens...

...and of all the ways to kill someone, this is pretty lame. (assassins normally make it look like suicide ... and there has been several odd deaths)

but this action bears a label, someone is trying to say something whilst running amok in someone else's Country.

Putin is to be held accountable because this nerve agent was made in Russia........ and deployed on our sovereign soil.
It could be gangsters but ultimately the guy at the helm is accountable whether it was one of his cronies or not.

Suppose this is the case. An aging Russian agent goes rogue, has access to this nerve toxin, and decides to take vengeance against his old enemy, Mr. Skripal, who's living comfortably in retirement in London and being visited by his daughter.

Let's also presume the Russian state is culpable in the sense that they took no extraordinary measures to prevent agents from obtaining the toxin.

In these circumstances, what would you say is the appropriate response of the British government?

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 15, 2018 18:37:03 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 15, 2018 18:34:01 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

... And he'd have to be off his nut to order something like this.

But might he order it without micromanaging the means and some fool care it out in this way?

No.

If he's involved, it's either because i) he's gone off his nut and wanted to make a profound, undeniable statement of aggression, or ii) there's a world behind Mr. Skripal we're not aware of, a world of circumstances we're not aware of, and assassinating him as soon as possible, by any means possible, was so greatly in the Kremlin's interest that they'd risk war, sanctions, isolation, etc. to accomplish it.

[weltschmerz]

I must admit, I'm also skeptical. We're in a situation where anti-Russia hysteria is at its peak, Russia is under intense scrutiny, the Russian election is in full swing, and they're about to host the World Cup. And Pres. Putin, an intelligent man well-trained in spycraft, decides this is the optimal moment to assassinate a British ex-spy living openly in London since 2010... with a Russian nerve toxin? A man that he'd returned in a prisoner exchange a decade earlier?
---------------

That's what he's counting on. "They'll never think it's me.....it would be too obvious."

And calling it an election is joke, when Putin barred his biggest political rival, Alexei Navalny,  from running at all.

Threw him in prison and barred him from running. And it wouldn't be the first time he's done this.

Gosh, I wonder who is going to win?

[weltschmerz]

Mar 15, 2018 20:42:59 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 15, 2018 18:37:03 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

But might he order it without micromanaging the means and some fool care it out in this way?

No.

If he's involved, it's either because i) he's gone off his nut and wanted to make a profound, undeniable statement of aggression, or ii) there's a world behind Mr. Skripal we're not aware of, a world of circumstances we're not aware of, and assassinating him as soon as possible, by any means possible, was so greatly in the Kremlin's interest that they'd risk war, sanctions, isolation, etc. to accomplish it.

Sanctions? From his good buddy, Trump?

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 15, 2018 20:52:06 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

That's what he's counting on. "They'll never think it's me.....it would be too obvious."

This logic only works if the British perceive Pres. Putin as too stable to do something so reckless and they aren't looking for an excuse to wage war. If Pres. Putin reads even a single British newspaper, he'll know that neither is the case.

I won't say the theory is impossible, but given the current political climate, it would constitute such an egregious political miscalculation on Pres. Putin's part that I maintain my "he'd have to be off his nut" proviso.

[thyme4change]

I'm sure you are right Virgil. After all, the leaders of European countries don't have any additional information that is top secret. And your ability to analyze that data is probably better than MI-6, or whatever intelligence agencies analyzed the info.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 16, 2018 11:09:11 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I'm sure you are right Virgil. After all, the leaders of European countries don't have any additional information that is top secret. And your ability to analyze that data is probably better than MI-6, or whatever intelligence agencies analyzed the info.

I've never said this couldn't be the case.

But if you're comfortable going to war based on super-secret hidden facts that can't be revealed to the public for some reason, I've got a war in Iraq to sell you.

[Spellbound454]

Let's also presume the Russian state is culpable in the sense that they took no extraordinary measures to prevent agents from obtaining the toxin.

In these circumstances, what would you say is the appropriate response of the British government?

They are culpable...... At the very least, they made this nerve agent and should have destroyed it.

What did you expect us to do?

If Putin is deliberately targetting citizens in another country with Novichok ... which has also poisoned the police officer who was in attentedance because of its reckless useage.

It is an act of War.

To say our government is none to happy about it is an understatement. Imagine if a deadly nerve agent was deployed in your Country?

We've had enough of this bloody lot ...and all the strange Russian deaths that appear to be happening on our soil
Anyone who is suspected of being a spy has been kicked out ... and further sanctions will be applied unless Russia starts investigating.

[Spellbound454]

Oh look... they have murdered another Russian on Monday
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43433552

Thought originally to have hung himself...... turns out to have been strangled.

[thyme4change]

Mar 16, 2018 11:25:17 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 16, 2018 11:09:11 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I'm sure you are right Virgil. After all, the leaders of European countries don't have any additional information that is top secret. And your ability to analyze that data is probably better than MI-6, or whatever intelligence agencies analyzed the info.

I've never said this couldn't be the case.

But if you're comfortable going to war based on super-secret hidden facts that can't be revealed to the public for some reason, I've got a war in Iraq to sell you.

Let's start with sanctions, as we should have done when Congress approved them months ago.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 16, 2018 12:17:17 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Let's also presume the Russian state is culpable in the sense that they took no extraordinary measures to prevent agents from obtaining the toxin.

In these circumstances, what would you say is the appropriate response of the British government?

They are culpable...... At the very least, they made this nerve agent and should have destroyed it.

What did you expect us to do?

If Putin is deliberately targetting citizens in another country with Novichok ... which has also poisoned the police officer who was in attentedance because of its reckless useage.

It is an act of War.

To say our government is none to happy about it is an understatement. Imagine if a deadly nerve agent was deployed in your Country?

We've had enough of this bloody lot ...and all the strange Russian deaths that appear to be happening on our soil
Anyone who is suspected of being a spy has been kicked out ... and further sanctions will be applied unless Russia starts investigating.

Sanctions I don't believe punish the right people (that is to say: even if the Kremlin is behind the assassination, they aren't the ones who will suffer due to sanctions), but as long as you're not gung ho on bombing or invading Russian territory somewhere and starting WWIII, I won't criticize.

[Spellbound454]

Boris Johnson ...on TV this morning

“We actually have evidence within the last 10 years that Russia has not only been investigating the delivery of nerve agents for the purpose of assassination, but has also been creating and stockpiling novichok.”

This is perhaps why the US and Europe have supported the UK in the way they have.
Its in violation of current international legislation. ....and it has been deployed

Samples are going to other Countries for investigation... and we'll wait to here what happens next.

I think we are owed an explanation.

[Virgil Showlion]

Spellbound454: I've read that your Labour Party leader, Mr. Corbyn, is being smeared as "Kremlin Stooge", etc., and booed and jeered in Parliament for his comment, “Our response must be decisive and proportionate and based on clear evidence,” and refusal to condemn Russia based on lack thereof.

What's the problem with your P.M. May? Is she so desperate for war? I don't get it.

[Spellbound454]

Mar 19, 2018 6:50:15 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Spellbound454 : I've read that your Labour Party leader, Mr. Corbyn, is being smeared as "Kremlin Stooge", etc., and booed and jeered in Parliament for his comment, “Our response must be decisive and proportionate and based on clear evidence,” and refusal to condemn Russia based on lack thereof.

What's the problem with your P.M. May? Is she so desperate for war? I don't get it.

Who is desperate for War?

Us ... minding our own business, getting on with our ordinary lives....(and wondering why Russians keep dropping dead)

or Russia......... who have culpability for a deadly nerve agent being deployed on British soil?

There are currently two possible scenarios.
Firstly...Putin directly ordered the assassination of former Russian spy on British soil ......with novichok
or secondly.... the nerve agent is now in the hands of the Russian Mafia (or other criminals) and is being used by them for their own purposes ...again on British soil.

Either way... the Russian State is culpable since they made and weaponised the stuff during the cold War

and the allegation from the Foreign Secretary...... is that there is evidence they are making more.

Corbyn is being booed because at times of crisis....... the unwritten rule is that the Country unites.
He is an aging Marxist who doesn't want to believe Russia could do any wrong.... but he is not being supported by his own party

We have the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) here at the moment from the Hague. They are doing their own investigation.
Our next move will be down to their findings.
but don't expect us just to put up with this ...We have been very wronged..... and will jump up and down until the situation finds a resolution.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 20, 2018 12:11:08 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

There are currently two possible scenarios.
Firstly...Putin directly ordered the assassination of former Russian spy on British soil ......with novichok
or secondly.... the nerve agent is now in the hands of the Russian Mafia (or other criminals) and is being used by them for their own purposes ...again on British soil.

These are the only two options?

The origin of the toxin hasn't been determined, and numerous groups are able to produce it.

Either way... the Russian State is culpable since they made and weaponised the stuff during the cold War

This is like the saying the US is responsible if Iran nukes Israel since Americans developed the nuclear bomb.

Yes, Russia developed the technology. This doesn't mean they produced and lost control of the batch that killed Mr. Skripal.

and the allegation from the Foreign Secretary...... is that there is evidence they are making more.

WMDs in Iraq...

Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan...

Corbyn is being booed because at times of crisis....... the unwritten rule is that the Country unites.

Peace and democracy in Libya...

Chemical weapons in Syria...


Well... when the first Russian nuke hits London, if the flesh hasn't melted off your face and you're still able to speak, don't say I didn't tell you so.

[Spellbound454]

Well... when the first Russian nuke hits London, if the flesh hasn't melted off your face and you're still able to speak, don't say I didn't tell you so.

Getting a bit ahead of yourself aren't you Virgil?

Nuclear strikes end in mutually assured destruction.

Russia cannot operate like this in other peoples Countries..... and they have been up to all sorts of malevolent acts.

This is like the saying the US is responsible if Iran nukes Israel since Americans developed the nuclear bomb.

Huh? You are talking about entirely different States here, there is no comparison.

As for your links, it depends on your agenda and what you are reading. Russia denies making novichoks at all yet others disagree.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/novichok-nerve-agent-poison-soviet-russia-salisbury-attack-leonid-rink-vladimir-uglev-the-bell-a8265626.html
Someone is lying.

We'll soon know if it is them because each chemical leaves a trace of origin.

Yet the Ex Russian Spy and his daughter are still in a coma that they may never come out of.
and there is contamination in a British city.

Russia are feeling the pressure and they bloody should. Perhaps it will make them think twice before doing or allowing anything like this again. 

[retread]

Mar 23, 2018 14:35:12 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Getting a bit ahead of yourself aren't you Virgil?

Nuclear strikes end in mutually assured destruction.

That's a rather malformed use of the terminology for the deterrence / stalemate which exists when two sides have the capacity.

'Assured' refers to the potential for that outcome, not the outcome itself which would be Mutual Destruction.

As far as how nuclear strikes end, we don't actually know for certain.  We know how they could end but history has only given us two examples, both in 1945.  The destruction was unilateral, not mutual.

[Spellbound454]

Why be pedantic?

Russia and the UK have nuclear weapons ...we are also part of NATO
No-one s going to escalate this in to a nuclear war anytime soon....it would be suicide.

Do you really think Russia should be allowed carte blanche to attack with nerve agents in our Country
What if they did it in the US?
Don't you think that the government would be furious?

[retread]

Mar 23, 2018 17:13:23 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Why be pedantic?

Why be renitent toward learning some things which would help you to appear less clueless in future conversations?

Do you really think Russia should be allowed carte blanche to attack with nerve agents in our Country

A  -  There's no proof that 'Russia' did so.
B  -  Who's 'allowing' this?