moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Feb 21, 2018 23:57:01 GMT -5
Got the second offer tonight!
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adela76
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Post by adela76 on Feb 22, 2018 0:22:20 GMT -5
It sounds like you've got it all figured out.
One thing though - your desire for "protection of your reputation" by applying legal pressure to push/force them into an agreement to agree to stop bad-mouthing you . . . do you really expect such an agreement to be successful? By your account, these are shady people who have treated you badly for no reason. Regardless of whatever agreement you get the corporate lawyer to sign, these people will continue to speak badly of you with a wink, a nudge, an "off-the-record" comment. If you truly desire to protect your reputation, walk away and move on. Continue to build your good reputation at your new company. If you want to embarrass them, punish them, and possibly set yourself up for a future drawn-out, contentious, breach-of-contract lawsuit when they continue to bad-mouth you despite the legal agreement, then go for it.
I recently left a job because I got fed up with how poorly the leadership team was managing a transition to a new strategy/methodology. I was in favor of the new methodology, just not the leadership team. I've heard through the grapevine that my boss' boss has obliquely referred to my departure with the phrase "change is hard, some people are afraid of change". It makes my blood boil that he would say this about me, but at the end of the day I can't control what he says or does. The people who know me know that I'm excellent at what I do and why I left (and that it wasn't "fear").
I realize my experience is probably pretty minor/benign compared to what you are dealing with. But however carefully "presented in a context" your modest request may be, it sounds like blackmail to me (maybe it's justified and legal, but it still sounds like blackmail). You are kidding yourself if you think they won't instantly recognize this as a threatening action. That doesn't mean don't do it, but at least be honest with yourself about why you are doing it and what the consequences may be (particularly if it doesn't follow your ideal path).
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moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Feb 22, 2018 0:31:33 GMT -5
It sounds like you've got it all figured out. One thing though - your desire for "protection of your reputation" by applying legal pressure to push/force them into an agreement to agree to stop bad-mouthing you . . . do you really expect such an agreement to be successful? By your account, these are shady people who have treated you badly for no reason. Regardless of whatever agreement you get the corporate lawyer to sign, these people will continue to speak badly of you with a wink, a nudge, an "off-the-record" comment. If you truly desire to protect your reputation, walk away and move on. Continue to build your good reputation at your new company. If you want to embarrass them, punish them, and possibly set yourself up for a future drawn-out, contentious, breach-of-contract lawsuit when they continue to bad-mouth you despite the legal agreement, then go for it. I recently left a job because I got fed up with how poorly the leadership team was managing a transition to a new strategy/methodology. I was in favor of the new methodology, just not the leadership team. I've heard through the grapevine that my boss' boss has obliquely referred to my departure with the phrase "change is hard, some people are afraid of change". It makes my blood boil that he would say this about me, but at the end of the day I can't control what he says or does. The people who know me know that I'm excellent at what I do and why I left (and that it wasn't "fear"). I realize my experience is probably pretty minor/benign compared to what you are dealing with. But however carefully "presented in a context" your modest request may be, it sounds like blackmail to me (maybe it's justified and legal, but it still sounds like blackmail). You are kidding yourself if you think they won't instantly recognize this as a threatening action. That doesn't mean don't do it, but at least be honest with yourself about why you are doing it and what the consequences may be (particularly if it doesn't follow your ideal path). Your story is interesting. I’m curious... how does this equate to blackmail? I perceive blackmail very differently than what you’re suggesting.
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moneymaven
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Joined: Dec 26, 2010 10:05:04 GMT -5
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Post by moneymaven on Feb 22, 2018 0:32:28 GMT -5
I should add that yes I do believe it will be successful because they’ve just done the same for two former colleagues and know I’m privy to the agreement.
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retread
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Post by retread on Feb 22, 2018 2:21:25 GMT -5
I don’t want to fight and I don’t want to cause a scene, in my office or in the industry. I just want to protect my $$ and my name. There are some other facts that I don’t want to outline here for privacy sake but I have so much in my back pocket (fleshed out with my attorney) that could sink them big time. I’m sitting in some positional power at the moment to leverage a peaceful transition while protecting myself and my money. There are some situations that they cannot handle with me absent so if presented in a context around some of their needs, I think I can appeal to a solution that effectively manages my needs and theirs and leaves me in a professional and favorable light. I don’t want to drop the proverbial hammer and threaten. I just don’t think that ever works well. If you have an attorney, you should be getting better legal advice than you're likely to get from a message board. If not, consider a better attorney? In terms of strategic advantage, the party who takes legal action is always in a better position. The other party must react. One has more time to prepare when acting than reacting. As far as "sinking them big time", unless you're in a mid six-figure salary range, any award you get via judgment probably won't sink any company healthy enough to be worth working for in the first place. But companies generally prefer settlement to court battles. However this goes for you, I do have some advice regarding talking about the current situation. Don't. Venting in an anonymous venue won't be a problem. Discussing this with anyone at your new place of employment is the worst thing you could possibly do. No matter how "in the right" you are, talking about this will cast a shadow on you.
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gooddecisions
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:42:28 GMT -5
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 22, 2018 8:18:43 GMT -5
If it were me, I'd negotiate my offers to include a higher salary, higher bonus and a sign-on bonus at least as much as the quarterly bonus you will be forfeiting. Then, I wouldn't pursue anything with my old company and definitely wouldn't speak another word of this drama.
The situation sucks, but it's not illegal and your perception is likely completely different than the new person in charge. When leadership changes, some incumbents aren't always going to be onboard with new ways of doing work (ie, him meeting without you). If you are perceived as standing in the way of how he wants to run the shop, then he is going to want you out. That's harsh, but it's business.
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hoops902
Senior Associate
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 22, 2018 11:56:12 GMT -5
It sounds like you've got it all figured out. One thing though - your desire for "protection of your reputation" by applying legal pressure to push/force them into an agreement to agree to stop bad-mouthing you . . . do you really expect such an agreement to be successful? By your account, these are shady people who have treated you badly for no reason. Regardless of whatever agreement you get the corporate lawyer to sign, these people will continue to speak badly of you with a wink, a nudge, an "off-the-record" comment. If you truly desire to protect your reputation, walk away and move on. Continue to build your good reputation at your new company. If you want to embarrass them, punish them, and possibly set yourself up for a future drawn-out, contentious, breach-of-contract lawsuit when they continue to bad-mouth you despite the legal agreement, then go for it. I recently left a job because I got fed up with how poorly the leadership team was managing a transition to a new strategy/methodology. I was in favor of the new methodology, just not the leadership team. I've heard through the grapevine that my boss' boss has obliquely referred to my departure with the phrase "change is hard, some people are afraid of change". It makes my blood boil that he would say this about me, but at the end of the day I can't control what he says or does. The people who know me know that I'm excellent at what I do and why I left (and that it wasn't "fear"). I realize my experience is probably pretty minor/benign compared to what you are dealing with. But however carefully "presented in a context" your modest request may be, it sounds like blackmail to me (maybe it's justified and legal, but it still sounds like blackmail). You are kidding yourself if you think they won't instantly recognize this as a threatening action. That doesn't mean don't do it, but at least be honest with yourself about why you are doing it and what the consequences may be (particularly if it doesn't follow your ideal path). Your story is interesting. I’m curious... how does this equate to blackmail? I perceive blackmail very differently than what you’re suggesting. I agree...not sure I see how "you're doing something negative and potentially illegal...I'm putting you on notice that if you don't stop I'm going to take action" equates to blackmail (or if it does, then pretty much everything in life is blackmail). If my employer fails to send me a paycheck and I tell them "pay me or I'm going to file a lawsuit and report you"...that would also qualify as blackmail here.
More specifically, blackmail involves demanding money for not revealing information about a person which would harm them. I don't see any demand of money.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 22, 2018 12:34:56 GMT -5
She is demanding payment of her quarterly bonus and severance in return for not burying them. At my company, you don't get to demand severance and prepayment of a bonus if you resign. You could with a lawyer and threat of lawsuit, of course. It would not be worth the reputational risk if I had other opportunities that meant I would come out ahead. On the other hand, if I were being fired and my livelyhood was at stake, than I'd lawyer up.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 22, 2018 13:44:56 GMT -5
If after reading these opinions, you still want to pursue a lawsuit, think about what case they might be building against you.
Does your new boss believe you are acting bitter for not getting the position and undermining his authority? Is there any part of your performance or behavior that might be under scrutiny? It is possible that a lawsuit or threat of a lawsuit will jeopardize your reputation and prospects for a new job? Since the position was filled without being posted, were you even an applicant?
What is your case exactly? You deserved the position over the one who got it and he doesn't seem to like you? His boss may have discriminated against you? (very hard to prove). You feel the new boss treats you unfairly?
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Anne_in_VA
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Post by Anne_in_VA on Feb 22, 2018 20:57:20 GMT -5
it makes me really sad to read this thread and the responses. This is how the assholes keep being assholes - because we all just don't say anything and then leave. Nothing will ever change. It is an unfortunate reality. I don't disagree with saying anything, but the reality is that "you" will be the one punished first, lonf before karma bites the wrong-doer in the ass (and karma is not likely to come in the form of management punishment). So, first step is to protect yourself, unless you are in a situation where you can afford to lose your job, and go into it with eyes wide open, not an idealistic view of what is to come. Once out, then make contact with the former management to explain the issues, when it can no longer affect you and your lively hood, if you feel that doing so may allow for change for someone else. Having been there, done that, with serious proof, and still having to deal with a year of aggressive attempts to get me to mess up so they could hammer me, I highly encourage escape before anything else, if at all possible. Even had I "been victorious" and things been handled as they should have been, I would not want to still be in that old environment, as that one person had created a very toxic pool, sucking others in. And, as far as people having your back, agreeing with your side, seeing the issues first hand, witnessing events, when the moment comes when they have to do more than gossip about it, nearly every last one will clam up and "stay neutral", even if all they had to do to "save" you was tell the truth. They won't. You can only depend/rely on yourself. So much this. I’m just catching up on this thread, but I’ve been in a toxic work situation and I ended up being pushed out. I tried to apply for other positions within the company but with other departments but wasn’t successful. I was targeted by my managers boss and ended up leaving. He then targeted the next person and got them out too. He kept doing this to others in the department successfully for several years. At some point he was forced out too ( didn’t hear why but I suspect someone higher up figured out what was going on and got rid of him. He’s moved on to a new company and there are constantly open positions in his department that I see advertised, so I would suspect that he’s up to his old tricks again. I hope karma does get him eventually, but I’m not holding my breath.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 22, 2018 21:19:54 GMT -5
She is demanding payment of her quarterly bonus and severance in return for not burying them. At my company, you don't get to demand severance and prepayment of a bonus if you resign. You could with a lawyer and threat of lawsuit, of course. It would not be worth the reputational risk if I had other opportunities that meant I would come out ahead. On the other hand, if I were being fired and my livelyhood was at stake, than I'd lawyer up. Regarding the blackmail explanation: That's how I interpret it also.
Having been in a slightly similar position, I desperately wanted to file a lawsuit. My husband talked me out of it as he (rationally) believes it would have tarnished my reputation more than just moving on.
moneymaven, Are the two offers comparable? I'm glad you have two of them!
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adela76
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Post by adela76 on Feb 23, 2018 23:46:12 GMT -5
Your story is interesting. I’m curious... how does this equate to blackmail? I perceive blackmail very differently than what you’re suggesting. I did put a caveat of "justified and legal" blackmail. It was really just hyperbole. Just for fun, I looked up the dictionary definition of blackmail: "any payment extorted by intimidation, as by threats of injurious revelations or accusations." You are asking for a severance payment (money), and you say that you have enough info to "sink them". This implies that, if they do not do what you want, you will reveal information that will injure them. It also implies that if they do do what you want, you won't reveal the information that will injure them. It's not blackmail, but it's got certain parallels. I truly don't think you are literally or illegally blackmailing anyone, nor did I mean it as an insult or moral judgment. A lawsuit that is settled out of court with a confidentiality clause also has certain parallels with blackmail too (I'm not saying that lawsuits are blackmail either, for the record).
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moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Feb 24, 2018 16:39:08 GMT -5
A third offer came Friday morning and I accepted one of them. I will give notice in a week (new employer needs to work some internal PR for internal candidates) and then I will make the move. It’s a great change and I got a 25% increase on an already healthy salary so really happy about that.
With everything else happening in my life, a new job is a lot to take on, but frankly, it’s like I’m wiping my entire slate clear and starting anew.
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