You can't criticize something unless you have done it?

[Rob Base 2.0]

I've never understood this argument that you can't have a point of view / criticize something unless you've done it / experienced it yourself

like for example, I was reading that a film producer or whatever didn't like one of the negative reviews and he asked the critic via twitter "well how many movie scripts have you written?"

And I criticize peeps parenting styles all the time, and I have no kids, so I get that argument thrown at me too "well you don't have kids, blah blah...."  and I am like so what, I will continue to criticize so there

I guess according to that logic, only a handful of peeps can criticize the President, because there aren't too many of ex-POTUSes around?

What am I missing to this argument?

[Tennesseer]

I have no opinion of murder because I have never done it or experienced it myself.

[Rob Base 2.0]

Dec 23, 2017 13:03:06 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I have no opinion of murder because I have never done it or experienced it myself.

See what I mean? You aren't even allowed to say murder is bad.......

I am going to keep on criticizing peeps with kiddos anyway.....

[Tiny]

The part you are missing is that they have resorted to a fallacy to defend their position.   

It could be an "ad hominem"  if  they are going for the "you aren't one of us" so you must automatically be wrong because you are the "wrong" kind of person. 
It could be a kind of "mind projection fallacy" -  in that they believe their 'view' of the world/way things works is correct (and if you haven't experienced their "world" you must therefore be wrong).  
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_projection_fallacy

That said... I do believe there are some things/experiences you cannot truly understand without experiencing.. say the death of a parent if your parents are all still alive.  BUT that doesn't mean you are clueless about death/grief (assuming you're not so sheltered that no one you know or no pet you have known has died).  

And I know I often fall back on the Mind projection fallacy - cause sometimes I just can't believe that I live in the same reality as some other people (and how can they NOT see that the world doesn't work they way the say it works).

 

[dannylion]

We all have opinions about everything.  There's nothing wrong with that. 

Life presents us with opportunities for expressing our legitimate dissatisfaction with something, opportunities for offering constructive criticism suggestions, and opportunities for having unexpressed thoughts.  The trick is to know which opportunity is presenting itself as we stagger through our day among other ordinary humans who are staggering through their own days, all of us with varying degrees of success. 

I don't have children, either, and I certainly have opinions about the parenting skills of people I encounter in public whose children appear to be feral, at best (we've all encountered those children).  Sharing my opinion with the parent would not make anything better.  So I view those occasions as opportunities for having unexpressed thoughts.  I have no idea of the family or their backstory, I know nothing about the special circumstances that brought on the behavior I have seen that I don't like.  If the parent is distressed by the behavior of the child, hearing my thoughts on the behavior is not going to improve anything for anyone.  If the parent is unconcerned by the behavior, then hearing my thoughts would have no effect and would be a waste of my time.  Life can be hard.  There is no reason to make it harder, even if you think the kid is a brat and its parent is incompetent.  

Before I knew anything about what is involved in analyzing and predicting the weather, like many others I would go directly to the "stupid weatherman got it wrong again" as the default reaction.  Then I learned something about meteorology and just how difficult and challenging it is to predict weather with any precision and how much real skill is involved in the job.  I now react differently when the weather does not conform to the best efforts of professional meteorologists to predict it. 

We all should have opinions about the competence and performance of politicians and other government officials and should feel free to express them.  We should also feel an obligation to learn about the issues so whatever criticism we offer is informed and not just bat-shit loony ranting about how awful "they" are.  That's just annoying. 

[andi9899]

The parenting thing is valid. Until you've been there, you can't judge. It's the hardest job you'll ever have. You can't quit or have any days off.

Other stuff, it depends. I've never been stranded in the desert, but I'm sure it would suck.

[thyme4change]

Dec 23, 2017 20:41:52 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

The parenting thing is valid. Until you've been there, you can't judge. It's the hardest job you'll ever have. You can't quit or have any days off.

Other stuff, it depends. I've never been stranded in the desert, but I'm sure it would suck.

Even if you have kids, it can be hard to truly understand what a different parent with a different kid is going through. Kids have different challenges and helping them work through it is unique. If your kid did not have that problem, you might not have any insight.

[kittensaver]

The Kid Thing:

You don't have to know how to lay an egg to make a good omelette, just sayin' . . .  

[justme]

Dec 26, 2017 16:50:08 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

The Kid Thing:

You don't have to know how to lay and egg to make a good omelette, just sayin' . . .  

If it truly was a you don't know unless it's your kid, there would be no cps.

[Ryan]

In the extreme or near extreme sides of bad parenting, you don't need to have been a parent to criticize.  On most of the stuff in the middle that's questionable, I think it's hard to judge unless you've had experience.  Parenting is a lot of give/take and most parents need to focus on the important stuff and be more lenient with other things so they don't end up yelling at their kids all day/everyday.  

[kittensaver]

Dec 26, 2017 17:05:57 GMT -5 justme said:

Dec 26, 2017 16:50:08 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

The Kid Thing:

You don't have to know how to lay and egg to make a good omelette, just sayin' . . .  

If it truly was a you don't know unless it's your kid, there would be no cps.

For Real

[wyouser]

Dec 23, 2017 13:03:06 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I have no opinion of murder because I have never done it or experienced it myself.

Tenn, I'm not so sure most folks would want to experience that....especially if they happen to be the "murdered"....   I was never a "guest" at Buchenwald or one of the camps of the Soviet Gulag but I have a definite opinion of them.....

[Tennesseer]

Dec 27, 2017 7:48:07 GMT -5 wyouser said:

Dec 23, 2017 13:03:06 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I have no opinion of murder because I have never done it or experienced it myself.

Tenn, I'm not so sure most folks would want to experience that....especially if they happen to be the "murdered"....   I was never a "guest" at Buchenwald or one of the camps of the Soviet Gulag but I have a definite opinion of them.....

Wyouser-my comment was sarcasm without the sarcasm emoji. I do have an opinion on murder.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

On most of the stuff in the middle that's questionable, I think it's hard to judge unless you've had experience.

Amen to that.  So much of parenting has been learning on the fly.    It's been a real learning curve for us having two girls close in age.   I am seven years apart from my brother.  DH is ten years younger than his sister and seven years younger than his brother.

We have no frame of reference for dealing with two girls. 

[andi9899]

Dec 26, 2017 17:05:57 GMT -5 justme said:

Dec 26, 2017 16:50:08 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

The Kid Thing:

You don't have to know how to lay and egg to make a good omelette, just sayin' . . .  

If it truly was a you don't know unless it's your kid, there would be no cps.

I'm going to guess that neither of you has children which is why you would write things like this. Like Ryan said, extreme cases where CPS would be involved are easy to judge. Any idiot knows you're not supposed to beat, starve, or otherwise neglect your kid. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that.

What's hard is everything else. How to know what's bothering your baby who can't talk to tell you whether they're hungry, in pain, etc. How to deal with other little kids being mean to your kid or how to deal with your kid being the bully. How do I talk to my tween about changes going on with their body. How do I talk to my kid about sex and make sure they aren't afraid/ashamed to talk to me if/when they have questions or require medical attention. That's just high level stuff too. On top of that you have doctors, other parents, and childless people such as yourself telling you what to do or judging what you do. It's hard and only one who has lived it can know what it's like.

That being said, I'm a parent and there are things I can't judge. I have girls. I would never begin to think about telling someone with boys the best way to teach a boy how to be a good man. It's not in my wheel house. How can a married parent tell another how to be a single parent? How can a parent who has no experience with it tell another how to deal with a special needs child? These are things you can't possibly judge unless you have been there.

But you go ahead and compare parenting to making eggs. That seems like a very reasonable comparison.

[mroped]

I think people are just a bit too sensitive. If someone disagrees with your parenting methods or anything else that you might have done, it can be taken as “criticism” but why not try to take it as an idea?
Do you always feel that what you are doing or how you are doing a certain thing is the right way? If not then why not try something else, something that had been suggested through criticism.
Being criticized doesn’t necessarily mean your have done it wrong but that there are other options too some of which might be more efficient or more productive.
And no, if your parenting methods are criticized you shouldn’t get to say “you don’t have kids so you don’t know!” unless the critic suggests things like “you should’ve beaten the little bastards so they fear you!”
There is never just one way when solving a problem. There is always a multitude of solutions and we have to pick the ones that we go with or the ones that we believe to be working.

[cktc]

Dec 26, 2017 16:46:03 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Dec 23, 2017 20:41:52 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

The parenting thing is valid. Until you've been there, you can't judge. It's the hardest job you'll ever have. You can't quit or have any days off.

Other stuff, it depends. I've never been stranded in the desert, but I'm sure it would suck.

Even if you have kids, it can be hard to truly understand what a different parent with a different kid is going through. Kids have different challenges and helping them work through it is unique. If your kid did not have that problem, you might not have any insight.

So much this. Sometimes I thing other parents can be more critical than non-parents. I think they either had an easy kid, are blind to their faults, or blocked out the challenging years. I don't think they were just so much better at everything. I think mine falls on the easy end of the spectrum, but I'm still in the thick of things with a toddler and he's spirited. I at least try to keep my opinions to myself and only offer advice when solicited.

[Ryan]

Dec 27, 2017 12:16:06 GMT -5 mroped said:

I think people are just a bit too sensitive. If someone disagrees with your parenting methods or anything else that you might have done, it can be taken as “criticism” but why not try to take it as an idea?
Do you always feel that what you are doing or how you are doing a certain thing is the right way? If not then why not try something else, something that had been suggested through criticism.
Being criticized doesn’t necessarily mean your have done it wrong but that there are other options too some of which might be more efficient or more productive.
And no, if your parenting methods are criticized you shouldn’t get to say “you don’t have kids so you don’t know!” unless the critic suggests things like “you should’ve beaten the little bastards so they fear you!”
There is never just one way when solving a problem. There is always a multitude of solutions and we have to pick the ones that we go with or the ones that we believe to be working.

People probably accept parenting advice if it's coming from someone that knows them very well and delivers it gracefully.  A random stranger approaching you in the grocery store in the middle of a temper tantrum probably won't be received well with advice like "You should try feeding her a little bit before bringing her out".  Now, if you're in line at the store and the mom/dad is talking about how she always throws a fit, and a lady says "I used to give them a snack right before we left to settle them down", then it might be received much much better.  

Obviously, it's all in the delivery though.  

I can't say I've really had anyone openly judge me in public...probably a lot in their heads though!

[Ryan]

Something similar though that bugs me equally as much is when volunteer groups blow off recommendations by saying "Well if you have so many good ideas, why don't you volunteer to help out?"  

First off, I do get that attitude because I kind of had the same attitude when I was coaching sports.  Particularly if a parent would say something like "It just seems really unorganized at the start of practice" and I'd be like "Yeah, because twelve 6-year olds just got dropped off by their parents.  Why don't you get off your phone and help get the kids organized!"

Still though, there are some suggestions that might not be glaringly obvious to someone.  Like for my son's little league, they have taken the stance of honoring all buddy requests.  The problem with this is that it means that a league of 1st and 2nd graders will end up with 3 teams entirely of 1st graders and 3 teams entirely of 2nd graders.  At first blush, it probably sounds great to have an entire team of all your friends.  The problem with this is that the teams are REALLY mismatched and the 1st grade teams end up getting killed.  

The other problem is if a kid doesn't put in the buddy request, then sometimes they will randomly assign you to a team.  There were 2 kids that were put on a 1st grade team.  

Every other league I've been a part of allows you 1 buddy request and it must be a 2-way match.  No buddy requests in AYSO unless the parents are the coach, assistant coach, and ref for the team.  

It seems much easier to do the 2-way buddy match system in this case and then just split up the kids evenly onto teams.  It's actually so obvious, that I can't believe the league officials wouldn't think of it!!!!

[mroped]

You got a point there with the strangers giving advice and honestly if a stranger would’ve done that to me I would’ve plainly told him to shove it! And with absolutely no regards to my own safety!😀
I went through something similar with what you describe when coaching little kids in U6-U8 AYSO. Some parents were assuming that the practice time works like babysitting so they were unhappy when the kids would have bruises or scrapes. The kids on the other hand didn’t have a worry in the world. Even to this day(10-12 years later) they still call me “coach” when I ran into them. And that, makes me happy!

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 23, 2017 12:52:37 GMT -5 Rob Base 2.0 said:

What am I missing to this argument?

Depending on what argument you're looking at, you may be confronting an identity fallacy and/or an appeal to accomplishment fallacy.

The former illogically posits "you can't understand because you aren't...". The latter illogically posits "you can't understand because you haven't...".

They're tricky to prove because the statements "you can't understand because you aren't..." and "you can't understand because you haven't..." can reasonably be true in some cases.

Another closely related one to watch out for is the "follow your heart" fallacy:

The Affective Fallacy (also The Romantic Fallacy; Emotion over Reflection; "Follow Your Heart"): An extremely common modern fallacy of Pathos, that one's emotions, urges or "feelings" are innate and in every case self-validating, autonomous, and above any human intent or act of will (one's own or others'), and are thus immune to challenge or critique. (In fact, researchers now [2017] have robust scientific evidence that emotions are actually cognitive and not innate.) In this fallacy one argues, "My feelings are valid, so therefore you have no right to criticize what I say or do, or how I say or do it." This latter is also a fallacy of stasis, confusing a respectful and reasoned response or refutation with personal invalidation, disrespect, prejudice, bigotry, sexism, homophobia or hostility.

[wyouser]

Dec 27, 2017 10:15:02 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 27, 2017 7:48:07 GMT -5 wyouser said:

Tenn, I'm not so sure most folks would want to experience that....especially if they happen to be the "murdered"....   I was never a "guest" at Buchenwald or one of the camps of the Soviet Gulag but I have a definite opinion of them.....

Wyouser-my comment was sarcasm without the sarcasm emoji. I do have an opinion on murder.

I know that....I'm just "funnin' ya!!!  Damn ole lefthander here can never resist a possible "play" on words........