djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 13, 2017 16:06:52 GMT -5
this is how elites thought from 1776 to about 1910, and then again from 1930-1981. since that time, this idea has eroded into a sea of selfishness, as the elite have grabbed more and more power and $, and somehow duped the electorate into thinking it is good for them. i worry for our country, dem. i really do. but soon, it won't be my country to worry about. best of luck to you. It got a little bloody at the turn of the century. The Railroad strike, the coal miners, steel workers, Mother Jones, etc, all got violent. Just so the richest people could have a few more bucks in their pockets. I just don't feel we learned much from that. it's been forgotten by this generation of capitalists. perhaps they should be reminded.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 13, 2017 16:09:38 GMT -5
Yes, I agree with your observance about the timeframe about the "elites" line of thought on this, and kudos for noting the gap for the gilded age (we could quibble on the exact dates, but I also see you noted that they were approximate) I worry for our country as well dj, but I am a somewhat fatalistic student of history in this sense. I think that every age is very dangerous, and holds the threats of dire consequence of one sort or another. This particular era is quite scary, both in terms of our capacity to really, really screw things up on a scale previously unknown, and also because since the history is not written the outcome is very much in doubt. However I also harbor a reserve of optimism, and think that it is yet possible for the (United States of) American experiment to prevail. I do fear for the pain along the way, as well as the real damage if it does not. The Chinese model of totalitarianism is one I would fear for the world to emulate, for instance. I can see the allure of escape to a simple paradise elsewhere, and have family in Costa Rica and the Bahamas. However I would urge you not to cut too many or all ties. I have seen in others that the life of an expat has it's downsides as well. There is truth to the old "home is where the heart is" stuff. Wish you well in whatever adventures you pursue of course! every nation has it's shortcomings. the nation i am thinking of moving to is even stupider about drugs than the US is, for example. simple possession would land you in jail. and they are not very forgiving about it.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 13, 2017 17:37:35 GMT -5
It got a little bloody at the turn of the century. The Railroad strike, the coal miners, steel workers, Mother Jones, etc, all got violent. Just so the richest people could have a few more bucks in their pockets. I just don't feel we learned much from that. it's been forgotten by this generation of capitalists. perhaps they should be reminded. Unfortunately the people who die aren't the silver spoon crowd.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 13, 2017 17:40:57 GMT -5
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me when was the last time they saw money trickle anywhere. I've been waiting since the Age of Reagan. Still nothing. My experience tells me he who gots the money keeps the money. He ain't gonna let that stuff trickle!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 17:55:55 GMT -5
If it trickles... its back up. We keep giving the 'handouts' to the poor... but wealth still concentrates at the top... that is because all $200 does when you pass go is keep you in the game... let you keep paying rent for one more round... and who gets the rent?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Nov 13, 2017 19:05:40 GMT -5
One is forced to wonder how many of these proponents actually believe what they have been told and how many are just claiming it works because it allows them to lower their own taxes (or that of "donors") if they can convince enough other people? Which is worse? Economic illiteracy and ignorance or self-dealing and corruption?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 14, 2017 7:15:08 GMT -5
The French rose up and their poor had a hell of a lot less than ours do.Β They toppled a monarchy that had lasted hundreds of years up to that point. The French Revolution was 10+ years in the making.Β Β It wasn't just the wealth divide it was also several years of bad climate and economic conditions that left the peasants without any way to support or even feed themselves.Β As they literally starved in the streets the rich were powdering their wigs with flour. Same thing happened in Russia with the toppling of the Romanov Dynasty.Β And Rome.Β Β And Imperial China.Β Β And the British Empire.Β Β And the Spanish Empire.Β We may not get their today or even tomorrow but we're heading in that direction.Β Β Β That is the beauty of being poor right now in America. They have just enough to feel like they have something to lose. Most of it on credit, so they don't even know that they are in worse shape than they think. If they are working, they can get a phone, a tv, maybe cable, a computer. If they are hungry, we give them assistance. Maybe not as much as they like, but some. We provide section 8 housing, so they have a place to live. If their job suddenly ends, maybe they get unemployment. Maybe welfare. If they are old, we give them social security. There won't be a true uprising until we cut off welfare programs and cut off easy credit. Republicans want to chop welfare, not knowing it would cause an uprising The dems don't want to cut welfare. Is it because they know we are keeping the poor placated and that is good because they want to keep things as is, or is it because they don't know that the only thing holding our current state steady is the relative quiet if the huddled masses? Thatβs a very good thought
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 14, 2017 7:21:45 GMT -5
I think the trickle down theory works. Iβm getting an unexpected gift. Iβm using it to pay for landscaping. This enables quite a few workers to have a job before the holidays in a time when most people donβt do landscaping. In January which is their totally dead time, theyβll do the backyard at a discount just to stay busy. Iβm taking the family to NYC. This keeps airline industry and hotel, restaurants, Uber drivers, stores in business as well. If I didnβt get it, I couldnβt spend it aka share the wealth. Am I spending everything? Certainly not. I have taxes due which also supports a lot of people.
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Post by dezii on Nov 14, 2017 7:47:45 GMT -5
I think the trickle down theory works. Iβm getting an unexpected gift. Iβm using it to pay for landscaping. This enables quite a few workers to have a job before the holidays in a time when most people donβt do landscaping. In January which is their totally dead time, theyβll do the backyard at a discount just to stay busy. Iβm taking the family to NYC. This keeps airline industry and hotel, restaurants, Uber drivers, stores in business as well. If I didnβt get it, I couldnβt spend it aka share the wealth. Am I spending everything? Certainly not. I have taxes due which also supports a lot of people. Usually if there is extra or surprise $ in play , some of that may be spent for fun or necessary but up to now, put off necessity's ...also though, many times it's just stashed away..invested for a rainy day..no guarantee how to be spent....[For me...got most of what I need..invest it..fun deciding where...which stocks, which funds].. There has been talk about forgiving tax dollars for corporate profits that are parked over seas by companies..but if forgiving or mucjn less taxes charged on those $...trillions..[not billions but trillions] would flow back here...and would be invested in new plants, business expansions, new hires, salary increases.... I am in favor of that , however, I do not trust that corporations would spend large amounts on expanding their businesses, new plants, new hiring, higher salaries...maybe , maybe not... Personally I believe hugh amounts of these funds would go to their stock buy back, dividends to stock holders, bonuses to executives...If they do a bring back the cash deal...I would want in black and white...worked out before hand ...with how much to be spent on new plants, raises to rank and file workers, new hires...business expansion.... Do I trust the corporations because our Donald says they will spend as he suggested they will..new plants, new hires, expansion, increased salaries, in other words another "trust me"? You got to be kidding..
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 8:21:57 GMT -5
I think the trickle down theory works. Iβm getting an unexpected gift. Iβm using it to pay for landscaping. This enables quite a few workers to have a job before the holidays in a time when most people donβt do landscaping. In January which is their totally dead time, theyβll do the backyard at a discount just to stay busy. Iβm taking the family to NYC. This keeps airline industry and hotel, restaurants, Uber drivers, stores in business as well. If I didnβt get it, I couldnβt spend it aka share the wealth. Am I spending everything? Certainly not. I have taxes due which also supports a lot of people. It allows you as a consumer to purchase goods and services. Thatβs not what is being talked about. THIS is a good thing. This is what drives hiring. They are talking about giving the business owner the break... and you nothing. So you have nothing to contract the business with... but the powers that Be say the extra money will cause the business to hire... but I only hire when demand exeeeds current capacity. Not because I have extra money.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 14, 2017 13:04:01 GMT -5
I think the trickle down theory works. Iβm getting an unexpected gift. Iβm using it to pay for landscaping. This enables quite a few workers to have a job before the holidays in a time when most people donβt do landscaping. In January which is their totally dead time, theyβll do the backyard at a discount just to stay busy. Iβm taking the family to NYC. This keeps airline industry and hotel, restaurants, Uber drivers, stores in business as well. If I didnβt get it, I couldnβt spend it aka share the wealth. Am I spending everything? Certainly not. I have taxes due which also supports a lot of people. Usually if there is extra or surprise $ in play , some of that may be spent for fun or necessary but up to now, put off necessity's ...also though, many times it's just stashed away..invested for a rainy day..no guarantee how to be spent....[For me...got most of what I need..invest it..fun deciding where...which stocks, which funds].. There has been talk about forgiving tax dollars for corporate profits that are parked over seas by companies..but if forgiving or mucjn less taxes charged on those $...trillions..[not billions but trillions] would flow back here...and would be invested in new plants, business expansions, new hires, salary increases.... I am in favor of that , however, I do not trust that corporations would spend large amounts on expanding their businesses, new plants, new hiring, higher salaries...maybe , maybe not... Personally I believe hugh amounts of these funds would go to their stock buy back, dividends to stock holders, bonuses to executives...If they do a bring back the cash deal...I would want in black and white...worked out before hand ...with how much to be spent on new plants, raises to rank and file workers, new hires...business expansion.... Do I trust the corporations because our Donald says they will spend as he suggested they will..new plants, new hires, expansion, increased salaries, in other words another "trust me"? You got to be kidding.. If taxes were the one and only reason manufacturing left the US, I would be more likely to support the lowering of the tax rate. If excess cash flow and profits habitually went to ALL the workers of a company, I would be more likely to support the lowering of the tax rate. But, neither if those is true. Manufacturing isn't here because we are far away from most of the world's population and resources. To make cheap products that can compete, we would have to ship raw materials from all across the world, and then put them together and send them back. Even if we only manufacture stuff for sale in the US, it is often still cheaper on shipping to send finished goods vs. raw materials. Not to mention that people in the US won't work for 4 bucks an hour like they do in China, nor 1 dollar per hour as they do in Vietnam. Now, we currently have an estimated 6 million unfilled jobs because our citizens don't have the right skill sets. And, in general, those jobs pay pretty well. If we focused in that direction, we would be in much better shape than reducing taxes.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2017 13:56:40 GMT -5
If anything, money trickles up, not down, as oped writes. A few years ago in the economic slump after 9-11 the Bush Admin passed a tax rebate of - I don't remember exactly- $500.00 or so, for all American taxpayers. The reason they did so was to "prime the pump", or to put an immediate infusion of cash into the economy. When they did so they admitted that the best way to get money into the economy to grow it was to give the break to common people, who would spend almost all of it immediately. And so they did. People went shopping with it, paid bills with it, and spent it quickly, and many economists pointed to a noticeable bump in economic activity. At the same time, both the Admin economists and unaffiliated economists noted that wealthier people would most likely just pocket/ bank their rebates, which they did. This is a direct repudiation of the trickle down theory on a small scale. Would lowering the corporate income tax boost corporate investment in the US? Perhaps, but in looking at direct comparisons of our corporate taxes to those of other companies people often forget (sometimes too conveniently) that in many of those other countries corporations are also subject to the Value Added Tax (VAT) which doesn't exist here. i think this would be excellent rebranding. except it is more like a geyser. good point about the VAT. i have never seen that in any calculation. all the proof you need for the fact that TDT is rubbish is in the OP.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2017 14:00:26 GMT -5
Usually if there is extra or surprise $ in play , some of that may be spent for fun or necessary but up to now, put off necessity's ...also though, many times it's just stashed away..invested for a rainy day..no guarantee how to be spent....[For me...got most of what I need..invest it..fun deciding where...which stocks, which funds].. There has been talk about forgiving tax dollars for corporate profits that are parked over seas by companies..but if forgiving or mucjn less taxes charged on those $...trillions..[not billions but trillions] would flow back here...and would be invested in new plants, business expansions, new hires, salary increases.... I am in favor of that , however, I do not trust that corporations would spend large amounts on expanding their businesses, new plants, new hiring, higher salaries...maybe , maybe not... Personally I believe hugh amounts of these funds would go to their stock buy back, dividends to stock holders, bonuses to executives...If they do a bring back the cash deal...I would want in black and white...worked out before hand ...with how much to be spent on new plants, raises to rank and file workers, new hires...business expansion.... Do I trust the corporations because our Donald says they will spend as he suggested they will..new plants, new hires, expansion, increased salaries, in other words another "trust me"? You got to be kidding.. If taxes were the one and only reason manufacturing left the US, I would be more likely to support the lowering of the tax rate. If excess cash flow and profits habitually went to ALL the workers of a company, I would be more likely to support the lowering of the tax rate. But, neither if those is true. Manufacturing isn't here because we are far away from most of the world's population and resources. To make cheap products that can compete, we would have to ship raw materials from all across the world, and then put them together and send them back. Even if we only manufacture stuff for sale in the US, it is often still cheaper on shipping to send finished goods vs. raw materials. Not to mention that people in the US won't work for 4 bucks an hour like they do in China, nor 1 dollar per hour as they do in Vietnam. Now, we currently have an estimated 6 million unfilled jobs because our citizens don't have the right skill sets. And, in general, those jobs pay pretty well. If we focused in that direction, we would be in much better shape than reducing taxes. people forget about geographic advantage. taken to an absurd degree, imagine a restaurant that relocates to Thailand. what good does that do? but closer to home, if i manufacture goods for businesses in CA, i have a leg up on my competition based in IN and MN. and, likewise, they have a leg up on me in the Midwest. if you take this to the international extreme, operating a business out of China does a person no good unless they have US offices to sell and maintain. furthermore, if they don't WAREHOUSE a good deal in the US, then any time you need a spare part for a piece of equipment, you are looking at bad translations and long delays. that is not acceptable to the JIT manufacturing in the US. in short, you are absolutely right about the competitive advantage of simply BEING HERE. the China screamers kind of forget about that.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2017 14:16:15 GMT -5
I think the trickle down theory works. you might want to read the study in the OP, because it doesn't.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2017 14:17:56 GMT -5
I think the trickle down theory works. Iβm getting an unexpected gift. Iβm using it to pay for landscaping. This enables quite a few workers to have a job before the holidays in a time when most people donβt do landscaping. In January which is their totally dead time, theyβll do the backyard at a discount just to stay busy. Iβm taking the family to NYC. This keeps airline industry and hotel, restaurants, Uber drivers, stores in business as well. If I didnβt get it, I couldnβt spend it aka share the wealth. Am I spending everything? Certainly not. I have taxes due which also supports a lot of people. It allows you as a consumer to purchase goods and services. Thatβs not what is being talked about. THIS is a good thing. This is what drives hiring. They are talking about giving the business owner the break... and you nothing. So you have nothing to contract the business with... but the powers that Be say the extra money will cause the business to hire... but I only hire when demand exeeeds current capacity. Not because I have extra money. this is precisely it /\ the economy is fundamentally "demand side". having more capital in an economy where consumers have no loose change does no good whatsoever. it starves resources from those that need it.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Nov 14, 2017 14:54:21 GMT -5
It allows you as a consumer to purchase goods and services. Thatβs not what is being talked about. THIS is a good thing. This is what drives hiring. They are talking about giving the business owner the break... and you nothing. So you have nothing to contract the business with... but the powers that Be say the extra money will cause the business to hire... but I only hire when demand exeeeds current capacity. Not because I have extra money. this is precisely it /\ the economy is fundamentally "demand side". having more capital in an economy where consumers have no loose change does no good whatsoever. it starves resources from those that need it. Besides that, it was my understanding that they were going to incentivize corporations to invest in plant & equipment - like say robotics that replace humans in factories. So how is the income going to trickle down and cause hiring and give consumers $$ to spend? How is that going to result in increased wages? Hopefully people can think about how these proposals really might affect them!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2017 15:16:52 GMT -5
this is precisely it /\ the economy is fundamentally "demand side". having more capital in an economy where consumers have no loose change does no good whatsoever. it starves resources from those that need it. Besides that, it was my understanding that they were going to incentivize corporations to invest in plant & equipment - like say robotics that replace humans in factories. So how is the income going to trickle down and cause hiring and give consumers $$ to spend? How is that going to result in increased wages? Hopefully people can think about how these proposals really might affect them! terribly, of course.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 14, 2017 21:54:42 GMT -5
I think the trickle down theory works. you might want to read the study in the OP, because it doesn't. You can manipulate βstudies β just like βstatistics.β
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2017 21:59:23 GMT -5
you might want to read the study in the OP, because it doesn't. You can manipulate βstudies β just like βstatistics.β not as easily as your gut. i'll take the studies, thanks. edit: the study is pretty easy to follow. there is basically ZERO evidence that TDT works. the burden of proof should be on those that advocate TDT, not those who don't. bring it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 14, 2017 22:02:31 GMT -5
Of course you will. Iβd be shocked otherwise.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2017 22:07:04 GMT -5
Of course you will. Iβd be shocked otherwise. and i would be shocked if you availed yourself to facts. shock me.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 14, 2017 22:14:29 GMT -5
Facts? π
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2017 23:14:25 GMT -5
yeah. facts like these: in the (5) years following the (5) largest tax cuts in US history, GDP growth averaged 3.4% in the (5) years following the (5) largest tax increases in US history, GDP growth averaged 3.4% facts like that. facts that you and others ignore in favor of your "feelings" (and the continuous stream of #fakenews). this is why i will take my reasoning and research over any "notions" you (or anyone else) might have. it is also why i spend as little time as i do on this board.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 14, 2017 23:19:34 GMT -5
Thatβs a good one. π
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 14, 2017 23:30:11 GMT -5
Thatβs a good one. π i have made less than (20) posts over at Politics this year. compare that to my monthly average prior to last November. facts.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 6:57:41 GMT -5
Just look at Kansas.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 15, 2017 8:43:05 GMT -5
yeah. facts like these: in the (5) years following the (5) largest tax cuts in US history, GDP growth averaged 3.4% in the (5) years following the (5) largest tax increases in US history, GDP growth averaged 3.4% facts like that. facts that you and others ignore in favor of your "feelings" (and the continuous stream of #fakenews). this is why i will take my reasoning and research over any "notions" you (or anyone else) might have. it is also why i spend as little time as i do on this board. Other facts, when tax cuts focus on the bottom 90%, jobs are created, when they focus on the top 10%, there is GDP growth, but not job growth. Is GDP all we care about?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 15, 2017 15:20:57 GMT -5
it depends on who you ask. if you ask the guys that are drafting the law: nope. the tax cuts are to contribute to the wealth of their doners. so, they don't actually give a crap about GDP growth.
their voters? i would describe it as their primary concern. or "jobs", which also are not grown by tax cuts. well, except maybe help around the house of rich folks by illegal labor.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 15, 2017 23:49:48 GMT -5
Wish I could "like" your post 1,000,000,000 times over! It's a "snow job"! And I have no formal education past high school, but even I can figure it out. Also, have OLD farm experience...way before all this tax mess! if so many "family farms" are affected by the estate tax, why don't we just exempt the farms instead of repealing the whole tax? Is that too logical? because it has nothing to do with farms. it has to do with perpetuating wealth and power.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Nov 19, 2017 21:19:12 GMT -5
A pretty good article on trickle-down economics and the current GOP plan. The finish of it: Derided by critics, trickle-down economics gets another try
Because, Mr. Cohn, they are in the real world and not a bunch of f***ing idiots clinging to a failed theory. Why do you and the GOP think their hands SHOULD be up? Oh, right, never mind. I guess that was answered.
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