djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 9, 2017 11:54:29 GMT -5
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 9, 2017 12:10:01 GMT -5
But I keep hearing how rich people pay more taxes now than in the history of forever! It's ruining the economy and the only way I can ever have a job is if they get lower taxes. Now you're telling me they paid more AND our GDP was better because of it? Fake news.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Nov 9, 2017 12:14:11 GMT -5
I hate it that they keep bringing back trickle-down economics. We've known since Reagan was in office that IT DOESN'T WORK. They should be teaching this to every high school student (or younger) in the USA.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Nov 9, 2017 12:22:18 GMT -5
But is this about economic growth right now? Of course not!!
These tax cuts are for Trump. And his buddies and his biddies. And something Republicans are hell bent on because they have talked about it for years (without delving deeper into the logistics), because they want to stick to those promises they have been making to their base for years (again without thinking deeper about it ) and, most importantly, because they want a win so bad they will settle for any darn thing.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 9, 2017 12:25:53 GMT -5
But I keep hearing how rich people pay more taxes now than in the history of forever! It's ruining the economy and the only way I can ever have a job is if they get lower taxes. Now you're telling me they paid more AND our GDP was better because of it? Fake news. They pay more in taxes now because they are reaching the height of proportional wealth. At this rate, they will have most of the money, by a lot, so they should pay the most taxes, by a lot.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 9, 2017 12:31:23 GMT -5
But I keep hearing how rich people pay more taxes now than in the history of forever! It's ruining the economy and the only way I can ever have a job is if they get lower taxes. Now you're telling me they paid more AND our GDP was better because of it? Fake news. They pay more in taxes now because they are reaching the height of proportional wealth. At this rate, they will have most of the money, by a lot, so they should pay the most taxes, by a lot. Fake news! Everyone knows they pay more taxes because the liberals are trying to steal from them to give to the no good lazy mooching poor.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 9, 2017 13:49:22 GMT -5
Are you referencing all the shovel ready projects President Obama claimed would put everyone back to work rather than the article you posted?
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Nov 9, 2017 14:57:16 GMT -5
www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/paul-ryan-worth-millions-_n_1774346.html
Paul Ryan and his wife are millionaires too. I am sure there is some self interest in him wanting to eliminate the estate tax and other taxes on the wealthy. We are in Ryan's district, and I was surprised that while I knew Ryan was wealthy, my husband was not aware of this. I guess he keeps in on the qt.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 9, 2017 16:04:07 GMT -5
As an aside...listening to someone on CNN talk about her feelings on this bill...I am kinda sick of average households being referred to as "hard working americans" in the context of "this bill takes money from hard working Americans and giving it to the rich." There are very hard working millionaires and multi-millionaires. And there are lazy people who do the bare minimum to earn 50k or 60k per year. I am against the bill, and I know why they use those words to get average earners on their side, but I'm just over it.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 9, 2017 23:26:07 GMT -5
As an aside...listening to someone on CNN talk about her feelings on this bill...I am kinda sick of average households being referred to as "hard working americans" in the context of "this bill takes money from hard working Americans and giving it to the rich." There are very hard working millionaires and multi-millionaires. And there are lazy people who do the bare minimum to earn 50k or 60k per year. I am against the bill, and I know why they use those words to get average earners on their side, but I'm just over it. Yes I hate those buzz words. There are hardworking Americans at all income levels. Some of the hardest workers I know are at poverty level or at what I call effective poverty level, you qualify for Section 8 housing but make too little to qualify for the lowest tier of affordable housing.
How hard you work sadly has little to do with how much you earn. I am against the bill because we don't need to reward the rich anymore than they've been blessed already. Some people want to broaden the base, but what that really means is they believe most of the folks that are poor don't have "skin in the game" per them, so they want their pound of flesh in the form of Federal Income taxes. If it gives more to the rich for the unicorn trickle down job theory, even better.
And there are lazy people at all income levels. Sadly though on this board, if you have enough income to "support yourself" it is forgiven. People should be judged on their character, contributions. Not on the size of their wallet(income) nor their perceived tax burden.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 10, 2017 10:59:25 GMT -5
Are you referencing all the shovel ready projects President Obama claimed would put everyone back to work rather than the article you posted? no. but Obama fell for this bullcrap, too, when he cut payroll taxes.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 12, 2017 9:37:03 GMT -5
The concentration of wealth at the top is greater than ever. This will accelerate it further. They had better think it through, because eventually "the people" get sick of it and do something about it. Redistribution of wealth,,,, Works real good until you run out of other peoples money. Take the easy way out, work hard, work smart, become rich, enjoy the benefits that money has bought, and paid for thru legislation! Other wise called tax breaks!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 12, 2017 11:39:55 GMT -5
The concentration of wealth at the top is greater than ever. This will accelerate it further. They had better think it through, because eventually "the people" get sick of it and do something about it. Redistribution of wealth,,,, Works real good until you run out of other peoples money. Take the easy way out, work hard, work smart, become rich, enjoy the benefits that money has bought, and paid for thru legislation! Other wise called tax breaks! societies redistribute wealth, bro. the question is ONLY how you want it distributed. it is clear that you like feudalism. how poor do you want your poor, oc? would you make Dickens blush?
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Nov 12, 2017 12:32:32 GMT -5
I don't know that the poor will have the resources to rise up enmasse and cause problems. I see more of a possibility of the blue states taking some kind of action at being soaked too much by the red states. Seems like the new tax plan will redistribute even more money out of the blue states to the red, and at some point they are going to try to do something to put a stop to it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 13:26:27 GMT -5
As an aside...listening to someone on CNN talk about her feelings on this bill...I am kinda sick of average households being referred to as "hard working americans" in the context of "this bill takes money from hard working Americans and giving it to the rich." There are very hard working millionaires and multi-millionaires. And there are lazy people who do the bare minimum to earn 50k or 60k per year. I am against the bill, and I know why they use those words to get average earners on their side, but I'm just over it. The issue is moving so much tax saving to passive income, I think that is the point? Badly stated. On the the other hand, how often do the lower income set get called lazy when lots of them work hard... just not for adequate compensation.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 12, 2017 22:10:08 GMT -5
The concentration of wealth at the top is greater than ever. This will accelerate it further. They had better think it through, because eventually "the people" get sick of it and do something about it. Redistribution of wealth,,,, Works real good until you run out of other peoples money. Take the easy way out, work hard, work smart, become rich, enjoy the benefits that money has bought, and paid for thru legislation! Other wise called tax breaks! I still have a ridiculous amount of money available to me compared to people who work full time, or even multiple jobs, but didn't have the luck / genetics o have.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 13, 2017 2:27:10 GMT -5
Are you referencing all the shovel ready projects President Obama claimed would put everyone back to work rather than the article you posted? no. but Obama fell for this bullcrap, too, when he cut payroll taxes. The toughest thing about any situation you walk into fairly high on the food chain, whether politics or a job, there are people who know how the system works who have been prepping for your arrival before you arrived. Obama was *my* personal lesson that confirmed some things simply happen because you get snowed into it, etc.
VB, do you remember that 2008 was still in the middle of the credit crisis? That those shovel ready jobs were both necessary, but also a sop to the ego of the American people ... ?
Because *I* remember 2008 very very clearly. I was working for a business heavily dependent on access to credit. When the axe fell in 2009, I learned that the entire industry was venture capital funded. One piece part was eventually bought upead by IBM (2015?) Many bills were being passed quickly but also held up in debates because of AIG, etc.
In my RL, I moved out of my rented room with a bath in one day, during lunch when my landlord/room-mate/launched by parents death 45 year old woman who never managed finances or lived apart from them. Well, let's just say, all the red flags came out after I signed on the dotted line. She had owned the place for 3 days officially when I signed the lease. But I digress, the third largest dealer in the entire US, headquartered in Florida went down because they had no choice. Dependent on the credit market just like the Telecom Invoice Processing Industry I landed into in 2006.
am stuck in a weird version of Groundhog day and I want out. Back to finally doing brag book/wall of achievement/someday somehow marketing/unique resume #3447 will bring a better job ... ... .....
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 13, 2017 2:33:38 GMT -5
Redistribution of wealth,,,, Works real good until you run out of other peoples money. Take the easy way out, work hard, work smart, become rich, enjoy the benefits that money has bought, and paid for thru legislation! Other wise called tax breaks! I still have a ridiculous amount of money available to me compared to people who work full time, or even multiple jobs, but didn't have the luck / genetics o have. This by a million, billion ...
Easy way my ass and yours! You want to help someone truly deserving help me, or one of my many dopplegangers spread across the US. You'll recognize us by our age and the fact you feel we don't belong where we are. Its Christmas so you may notice more people in the current age range of about 45 - 70, who are so underemployed you will assume they are working there as a second job.
They and I are not. And please help the single ones whether male or female, those with families or at least one working spouse literally have one "leg" to stand on that frankly my tribe does not.
What is a nice woman like you working in a place like this when you have a engineering degree/experience X/used to make $200K/... ?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 13, 2017 2:44:47 GMT -5
I think I'll just delete post #18, TMI, and you can wait for my book or movie to come out, which will be somewhere from at minimum 3 years from now .
Anyway, I called a bunch a people today and heard back from one of my dopplegangers who at least has SS, but is working at an auto parts store and I think has put his engineering degree on hold for now becase Finances. He's not sure what to do, he like I, have tried lots of things and frankly things just don't want to stick. And periodically some just die from the stress of it all and medical, sometimes leaving behind an also unemployed spouse or children not quite starting college...
Yeah luck. I'd rather be lucky. (4 leaf clover emojii)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 3:46:44 GMT -5
Shovel ready jobs kept us in business and allowed us to hire during the two-three years after the crash. We are almost all residential/home owner work... but during those years a significant percentage of income was prevailing wage fed jobs.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Nov 13, 2017 11:09:10 GMT -5
I just am amazed that they are trying to peddle the idea that Trickle down economics works and is going to cause incomes to go up etc. Also they Estate tax is keeping Farmers from passing "Family Farms" down to the next generation. Really? Hmm.
How many farms are worth over 5 Million $$? I googled it this morning.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/14/the-facts-about-the-estate-tax-and-farmers/?utm_term=.4730ff8d4767
In 2001, for instance, $675,000 ($1.35 million for couples) of an estate was exempted from the tax before a top rate of 55 percent tax rate kicked in. Now, the exemption is $5.43 million (nearly $11 million for couples) and tax rate is 40 percent on any amount after that. So the effective rate for most estates facing a tax is significantly lower than 40 percent.
These exemptions have made a huge difference in terms of who gets affected. In 2000, 2 percent of estates had to pay taxes; in 2013, just 0.18 percent had to pay taxes, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation. Put another way, there were 52,000 taxable estate tax returns filed in 2000 and just 4,687 in 2013. (In 1977, by contrast, 139,000 estates had to pay tax—nearly 8 percent of deaths.)
There is special use valuation that permits one’s gross estate to be reduced by an additional $1,100,000. (To be eligible for special use valuation, the land must continue to be farmed for 10 years after death and one or more family members must continue to meet two tests — one involves participation in management and the other, in most instances, does not permit cash rent leasing.) There are other possible discounts as well. There is also a provision that allows the tax to be paid off over 15 years, at low interest rates (with only interest due the first five years).
The U.S. Department of Agriculture estimates that with the exemptions, only 0.6 percent of farms would have to pay an estate tax. (Another 2.1 percent would file returns but would owe no taxes.) The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center estimates that only 120 farms and small business, where at least half the assets are in farm or business assets, had to pay the estate tax in 2013.
So republicans expect us to believe they want to eliminate the estate tax, because 120 Farmers had to pay estate tax in 2013 and they really really want to help those individual tax payers. I cry BS. They are trying to help other individuals, people like the Trumps and the Ryans etc. that have large family estates and want to reduce their own family tax burden.
There is another thread here about critical thinking skills...I wish more people would use their critical thinking skills and ask themselves, does what they are saying make sense? Even when they talk about the corporate tax rate, it bothers me that they don't talk about effective tax rates that corporations actually pay.
time.com/money/4444752/how-many-people-pay-estate-death-tax/
And what about Trump’s claim that small firms and family farms are being driven “out of business” by the tax? The Tax Policy Center found that in 2013, 20 small businesses and farms paid any estate tax nationwide.
The tax rate on estates above the exemption level is 40%, up from 35% last year. However, according to the Tax Policy Center, the average effective tax rate for those who paid the estate tax in 2013 was 16.6%.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 13, 2017 11:41:42 GMT -5
I don't know that the poor will have the resources to rise up enmasse and cause problems. I see more of a possibility of the blue states taking some kind of action at being soaked too much by the red states. Seems like the new tax plan will redistribute even more money out of the blue states to the red, and at some point they are going to try to do something to put a stop to it. all the poor have to do is strike en masse, and stop doing the laundry, housecleaning, and food service of the rich. it is easier said than done, in that the rich really have them by the balls. but it could be done, and would grind the country to a halt in a week.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 13, 2017 11:45:21 GMT -5
Redistribution of wealth,,,, Works real good until you run out of other peoples money. Take the easy way out, work hard, work smart, become rich, enjoy the benefits that money has bought, and paid for thru legislation! Other wise called tax breaks! Wrong. The issue is whether we should continue to have a progressive tax system, which follows the dictum that those who make more and have more should also pay more. Even most wealthy people support progressive taxation. However the new GOP mantra seems to be regressive taxation. If the poor and lower classes no longer feel that they have a stake- or a decent chance- in the system, that is trouble in the making. Did you know that there is now more class mobility in Great Britain and Europe than in the USA? There has been for some time now.... here is a funny thought, deminmaine: the GOP often argues that the government ought to be run like a business. let me ask you this, one businessman to another. which of the following customers do you extend terms to: 1) the customer who has a track record, a banking history, and visible hard assets or 2) the customer who has an "idea". i know how you will answer. but what the GOP argues is that the poor need some "skin in the game", and that it is "unfair" to ONLY tax the rich. but that is actually the OPPOSITE of sensible. you bill people who.....wait for it..... HAVE THE ABILITY TO PAY.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 13, 2017 11:50:20 GMT -5
I don't know that the poor will have the resources to rise up enmasse and cause problems. I see more of a possibility of the blue states taking some kind of action at being soaked too much by the red states. Seems like the new tax plan will redistribute even more money out of the blue states to the red, and at some point they are going to try to do something to put a stop to it. The French rose up and their poor had a hell of a lot less than ours do. They toppled a monarchy that had lasted hundreds of years up to that point. The French Revolution was 10+ years in the making. It wasn't just the wealth divide it was also several years of bad climate and economic conditions that left the peasants without any way to support or even feed themselves. As they literally starved in the streets the rich were powdering their wigs with flour. Same thing happened in Russia with the toppling of the Romanov Dynasty. And Rome. And Imperial China. And the British Empire. And the Spanish Empire. We may not get their today or even tomorrow but we're heading in that direction.
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kadee79
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Post by kadee79 on Nov 13, 2017 12:01:02 GMT -5
I just am amazed that they are trying to peddle the idea that Trickle down economics works and is going to cause incomes to go up etc. Also they Estate tax is keeping Farmers from passing "Family Farms" down to the next generation. Really? Hmm.
How many farms are worth over 5 Million $$? I googled it this morning.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/14/the-facts-about-the-estate-tax-and-farmers/?utm_term=.4730ff8d4767
In 2001, for instance, $675,000 ($1.35 million for couples) of an estate was exempted from the tax before a top rate of 55 percent tax rate kicked in. Now, the exemption is $5.43 million (nearly $11 million for couples) and tax rate is 40 percent on any amount after that. So the effective rate for most estates facing a tax is significantly lower than 40 percent.
These exemptions have made a huge difference in terms of who gets affected. In 2000, 2 percent of estates had to pay taxes; in 2013, just 0.18 percent had to pay taxes, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation. Put another way, there were 52,000 taxable estate tax returns filed in 2000 and just 4,687 in 2013. (In 1977, by contrast, 139,000 estates had to pay tax—nearly 8 percent of deaths.)
There is special use valuation that permits one’s gross estate to be reduced by an additional $1,100,000. (To be eligible for special use valuation, the land must continue to be farmed for 10 years after death and one or more family members must continue to meet two tests — one involves participation in management and the other, in most instances, does not permit cash rent leasing.) There are other possible discounts as well. There is also a provision that allows the tax to be paid off over 15 years, at low interest rates (with only interest due the first five years).
The U.S. Department of Agriculture estimates that with the exemptions, only 0.6 percent of farms would have to pay an estate tax. (Another 2.1 percent would file returns but would owe no taxes.) The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center estimates that only 120 farms and small business, where at least half the assets are in farm or business assets, had to pay the estate tax in 2013.
So republicans expect us to believe they want to eliminate the estate tax, because 120 Farmers had to pay estate tax in 2013 and they really really want to help those individual tax payers. I cry BS. They are trying to help other individuals, people like the Trumps and the Ryans etc. that have large family estates and want to reduce their own family tax burden.
There is another thread here about critical thinking skills...I wish more people would use their critical thinking skills and ask themselves, does what they are saying make sense? Even when they talk about the corporate tax rate, it bothers me that they don't talk about effective tax rates that corporations actually pay.
time.com/money/4444752/how-many-people-pay-estate-death-tax/
And what about Trump’s claim that small firms and family farms are being driven “out of business” by the tax? The Tax Policy Center found that in 2013, 20 small businesses and farms paid any estate tax nationwide.
The tax rate on estates above the exemption level is 40%, up from 35% last year. However, according to the Tax Policy Center, the average effective tax rate for those who paid the estate tax in 2013 was 16.6%.
Wish I could "like" your post 1,000,000,000 times over! It's a "snow job"! And I have no formal education past high school, but even I can figure it out. Also, have OLD farm experience...way before all this tax mess!
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pooks
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Post by pooks on Nov 13, 2017 14:36:36 GMT -5
As if there was any doubt that this was a plan for the rich, Trump Tweeted that he wants the top rate lowered to 35%.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 13, 2017 14:42:18 GMT -5
I just am amazed that they are trying to peddle the idea that Trickle down economics works and is going to cause incomes to go up etc. Also they Estate tax is keeping Farmers from passing "Family Farms" down to the next generation. Really? Hmm.
How many farms are worth over 5 Million $$? I googled it this morning.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/14/the-facts-about-the-estate-tax-and-farmers/?utm_term=.4730ff8d4767
In 2001, for instance, $675,000 ($1.35 million for couples) of an estate was exempted from the tax before a top rate of 55 percent tax rate kicked in. Now, the exemption is $5.43 million (nearly $11 million for couples) and tax rate is 40 percent on any amount after that. So the effective rate for most estates facing a tax is significantly lower than 40 percent.
These exemptions have made a huge difference in terms of who gets affected. In 2000, 2 percent of estates had to pay taxes; in 2013, just 0.18 percent had to pay taxes, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation. Put another way, there were 52,000 taxable estate tax returns filed in 2000 and just 4,687 in 2013. (In 1977, by contrast, 139,000 estates had to pay tax—nearly 8 percent of deaths.)
There is special use valuation that permits one’s gross estate to be reduced by an additional $1,100,000. (To be eligible for special use valuation, the land must continue to be farmed for 10 years after death and one or more family members must continue to meet two tests — one involves participation in management and the other, in most instances, does not permit cash rent leasing.) There are other possible discounts as well. There is also a provision that allows the tax to be paid off over 15 years, at low interest rates (with only interest due the first five years).
The U.S. Department of Agriculture estimates that with the exemptions, only 0.6 percent of farms would have to pay an estate tax. (Another 2.1 percent would file returns but would owe no taxes.) The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center estimates that only 120 farms and small business, where at least half the assets are in farm or business assets, had to pay the estate tax in 2013.
So republicans expect us to believe they want to eliminate the estate tax, because 120 Farmers had to pay estate tax in 2013 and they really really want to help those individual tax payers. I cry BS. They are trying to help other individuals, people like the Trumps and the Ryans etc. that have large family estates and want to reduce their own family tax burden.
There is another thread here about critical thinking skills...I wish more people would use their critical thinking skills and ask themselves, does what they are saying make sense? Even when they talk about the corporate tax rate, it bothers me that they don't talk about effective tax rates that corporations actually pay.
time.com/money/4444752/how-many-people-pay-estate-death-tax/
And what about Trump’s claim that small firms and family farms are being driven “out of business” by the tax? The Tax Policy Center found that in 2013, 20 small businesses and farms paid any estate tax nationwide.
The tax rate on estates above the exemption level is 40%, up from 35% last year. However, according to the Tax Policy Center, the average effective tax rate for those who paid the estate tax in 2013 was 16.6%.
Wish I could "like" your post 1,000,000,000 times over! It's a "snow job"! And I have no formal education past high school, but even I can figure it out. Also, have OLD farm experience...way before all this tax mess! if so many "family farms" are affected by the estate tax, why don't we just exempt the farms instead of repealing the whole tax? Is that too logical?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 13, 2017 14:49:10 GMT -5
I don't know that the poor will have the resources to rise up enmasse and cause problems. I see more of a possibility of the blue states taking some kind of action at being soaked too much by the red states. Seems like the new tax plan will redistribute even more money out of the blue states to the red, and at some point they are going to try to do something to put a stop to it. The French rose up and their poor had a hell of a lot less than ours do. They toppled a monarchy that had lasted hundreds of years up to that point. The French Revolution was 10+ years in the making. It wasn't just the wealth divide it was also several years of bad climate and economic conditions that left the peasants without any way to support or even feed themselves. As they literally starved in the streets the rich were powdering their wigs with flour. Same thing happened in Russia with the toppling of the Romanov Dynasty. And Rome. And Imperial China. And the British Empire. And the Spanish Empire. We may not get their today or even tomorrow but we're heading in that direction. That is the beauty of being poor right now in America. They have just enough to feel like they have something to lose. Most of it on credit, so they don't even know that they are in worse shape than they think. If they are working, they can get a phone, a tv, maybe cable, a computer. If they are hungry, we give them assistance. Maybe not as much as they like, but some. We provide section 8 housing, so they have a place to live. If their job suddenly ends, maybe they get unemployment. Maybe welfare. If they are old, we give them social security. There won't be a true uprising until we cut off welfare programs and cut off easy credit. Republicans want to chop welfare, not knowing it would cause an uprising The dems don't want to cut welfare. Is it because they know we are keeping the poor placated and that is good because they want to keep things as is, or is it because they don't know that the only thing holding our current state steady is the relative quiet if the huddled masses?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 13, 2017 14:59:10 GMT -5
djAdvocate you are absolutely right. But not only do we have the ability to pay... it is the morally right thing. Of those to whom much is given..... much is expected. It is the social compact. this is how elites thought from 1776 to about 1910, and then again from 1930-1981. since that time, this idea has eroded into a sea of selfishness, as the elite have grabbed more and more power and $, and somehow duped the electorate into thinking it is good for them. i worry for our country, dem. i really do. but soon, it won't be my country to worry about. best of luck to you.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 13, 2017 15:15:24 GMT -5
djAdvocate you are absolutely right. But not only do we have the ability to pay... it is the morally right thing. Of those to whom much is given..... much is expected. It is the social compact. this is how elites thought from 1776 to about 1910, and then again from 1930-1981. since that time, this idea has eroded into a sea of selfishness, as the elite have grabbed more and more power and $, and somehow duped the electorate into thinking it is good for them. i worry for our country, dem. i really do. but soon, it won't be my country to worry about. best of luck to you. It got a little bloody at the turn of the century. The Railroad strike, the coal miners, steel workers, Mother Jones, etc, all got violent. Just so the richest people could have a few more bucks in their pockets. I just don't feel we learned much from that.
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