Affirmative Action in Colleges

[milee]

Didn't want to derail the college admissions thread, but a comment from tskeeter about how college admission is not 100% merit based made me wonder what the general feeling was regarding affirmative action in college admissions.  I'd be interested to hear from people:

1)  If they observed affirmative action in their college experience and approximately when that took place.  
2)  What impacts they believe affirmative action had at their college.
3)  If they believe affirmative action is appropriate for college admissions (why or why not?)
4)  If their views on affirmative action on college campuses differ from their views on affirmative action at a workplace setting.

[haapai]

Even though every fiber in my being is telling me not to respond to this post, I'll do it anyways.  I would not be responding to this question if it were posed in real life unless the questioner was someone who I deeply trusted and the same could be said for all witnesses.  I would definitely duck and squirm and be terrified of answering it if it were posed in a workplace or by a coworker.  I don't think that I'd answer it if my own mother asked it, although I might if my dad or brother asked.  My mom's a little racist and I'm afraid of what I might hear her say. 

I don't trust you guys more than I trust my own mother, I just don't have to ever interact with any of you in real life.  If this thread descends into something worthy of 4chan (and the odds of that happening are scarily high), I can just flip the screen down and stay away for a couple of days. 

So here goes.

1) If they observed affirmative action in their college experience and approximately when that took place.
I attended two different undergraduate schools during three different periods.  In 1986, I matriculated at a small, private, highly selective liberal arts school and stayed there for 3 years.  In 1991, I started taking classes at the second-best public university in my home state and stayed there for about three years.  In 1997, I returned to that same school for the purpose of getting a second bachelor's degree in accounting and graduated in the spring of 2000. 

My experiences of affirmative action differed tremendously during each period of schooling. 

2) What impacts they believe affirmative action had at their college.
I think that it was a very good thing for students at the small, private, highly-selective liberal arts school.  I can't remember what I thought of affirmative action during the first stint at the large, second-tier public university.  During the second stint at that school, I wondered a lot about why the students in my accounting classes were so much whiter than the students in the hallways and seemed to be getting whiter as the classes got more advanced.  

3) If they believe affirmative action is appropriate for college admissions (why or why not?)
I honest to god do not know.  I'm gradually sliding to the conclusion that it's a lovely thing for all students attending top-flight private schools and that those schools will always find some way to maintain it.  I'm completely unconcerned about the kids who get bumped into a lower-tier school as a result of the policy.  It's a small bump from one private college to another. 

I have significantly more reservations regarding how affirmative action affects public universities, even the top-tier ones.  Admission to the top state university is (still) a plum of some value and the repeated leaks of how diversity is achieved sour the interactions between students of different backgrounds and students who pay pretty much the same tuition seem to be getting degrees of very different value.  The differences in graduation rates can be stark even at the best schools and become tragic as you go down in the rankings.  Don't kid yourself that these students eventually finished school somewhere else.  Schools have gotten very aggressive about following up with students who have left without graduating in hopes of juicing their 6-year and 10-year graduation rates. 

4) If their views on affirmative action on college campuses differ from their views on affirmative action at a workplace setting.
I'm not sure that I've ever encountered affirmative action in the workplace.  I've never held a job that was particularly hard to get or sought after.  Although I seem to recall being told that X-corp was an affirmative action/EEOC employer at some point in the intake process of every job that I have ever held, I just haven't seen any evidence that race or other disadvantage was a plus factor in getting a foot in the door at any employer that I've ever worked for. 

Every single place that I have ever worked was whiter than the customers and I've seen and heard a few things from management that are quite disturbing.   I don't see equality of opportunity. 

I had originally intended to follow up my short answers with a longer narrative but I've lost track of what the character limit is.  If this thread isn't closed by the time that I post, I may amend a longer narrative. 

[justme]

If we got rid of affirmative action, it's not like colleges would suddenly become merit only. Athletes routinely are accepted with subpar applications. Private schools (not sure about public) routinely give preference to legacies - to say nothing of the rich ones that buy their kid's place. I didn't need it on the academic side, but considering a relative of mine that worked at my college pulled what strings he could (and the mother of one of my roommates did for her & our other roommates) to get apartment housing when few freshman did I don't doubt some with enough clout could pull admission strings. Or maybe children of employees are given automatic preference?


That said, at my college I would guess our diversity had more to do with two large community colleges that have guaranteed acceptance to my school after completing their two year degree.

[swamp]

1) If they observed affirmative action in their college experience and approximately when that took place.

2) What impacts they believe affirmative action had at their college.

3) If they believe affirmative action is appropriate for college admissions (why or why not?)

4) If their views on affirmative action on college campuses differ from their views on affirmative action at a workplace setting. 

I did see some affirmative action at college, late 80's, early 90's.   There was a HEOP program that actively recruited black kids from urban settings, and also native American kids.  The Native kids were local.     

I think it was positive because where I went is known as a "junior ivy league" and is populated with the whitey mcwhiterson children of Charles "Biff and Margaret "Muffy" Worthington IV who are alums, and draw heavily from the eastern boarding schools, suburban Boston, and Connecticut.   Those kids are known as "chips," so i guess they benefit from affirmative action as well.  

I do think affirmative action is beneficial, but i think it should be based on economic factors, not race.   

I also think there is an advantage of hiring people from various backgrounds (consider all factors, not just race).    

[bean29]

I went to a suburban technical college (1982-1984, spent a semester at a local 2 year campus for the UW system (Spring 85) and graduated from the Oldest Private College in the state (1984-1988). The first 2 were fairly diverse as would be expected. At the time, neither was particularly expensive, so I am not sure how much Affirmative Action mattered.

My Private College has some pretty famous minority grads. I think they made some very good financial aid available to them. I was a good student, but not scholarship material ... so I was not obsessing about what everyone else got in financial aid. When I read stories about some of them, they always sound like they had pretty fabulous HS records.  Once you are in, you need to meet the school curricular and GPA expectations, and this was a tough school

After completing my AA in Accounting,  I went to work, and my employer gave me tuition reimbursement (1984-1988). It was not easy, but I am not complaining about the deal I got.  I don't think employers do as much of that as they used to though.

One employer I worked for, my division had a government contract...and we did have minority hiring quotas (1992-1999.  I felt that everyone pulled their weight and worked really hard.  Management did a fairly good job of getting pretty high quality candidates.  The second division I worked for in that company was under Marketing and was a cost to the company, not a revenue generator (2001-2004).  Manager of the department was a minority, a lot of the staff was white, but we had a few Puerto Ricans, Hispanics and Blacks.  We probably pretty much mirrored the general population.  That manager was hard to work for, but I don't necessarily hold it against her.   I feel a lot was what her bosses demanded of her.

ETA:  My DH claimed my kids could have gotten into UW-Madison on Minority Preference Quotas.  We did not attempt it.  I felt if they had to compete with a student body that was mostly 4.0+ GPA's the classes would be too tough.  If you are going for a minority preference you better be pretty close to being qualified for that school, or you will not be able to complete the coursework.  I am not aware of any college that just awards degrees to minorities for showing up.  Both kids wanted to go to DH's alma matter.  I think both my kids got into every school they applied at, but they were not given financial aid or tuition awards to pave the way - they did not have really great ACT or HS GPA.  DD has a few HS friends who complained that she got into the school she goes to and they were denied, but DD had some pretty strong extra curricular and leadership experience in HS.  My DS was a super senior when he graduated, and looks like DD will have a 5th year too.  I have to say, if we did not have a pretty strong financial standing, the kids might have to attend the local commuter college b/c the $$ just would not have been available to help them.  We are bleeding $$ this year and I only have one left in school.

[milee]

Oct 4, 2017 15:32:56 GMT -5 haapai said:

Even though every fiber in my being is telling me not to respond to this post, I'll do it anyways.  ....

I had originally intended to follow up my short answers with a longer narrative but I've lost track of what the character limit is.  If this thread isn't closed by the time that I post, I may amend a longer narrative. 

I'm glad you posted and would be interested in your longer narrative.

[zibazinski]

Oct 4, 2017 16:21:27 GMT -5 justme said:

If we got rid of affirmative action, it's not like colleges would suddenly become merit only. Athletes routinely are accepted with subpar applications. Private schools (not sure about public) routinely give preference to legacies - to say nothing of the rich ones that buy their kid's place. I didn't need it on the academic side, but considering a relative of mine that worked at my college pulled what strings he could (and the mother of one of my roommates did for her & our other roommates) to get apartment housing when few freshman did I don't doubt some with enough clout could pull admission strings. Or maybe children of employees are given automatic preference?


That said, at my college I would guess our diversity had more to do with two large community colleges that have guaranteed acceptance to my school after completing their two year degree.

No kidding about the athletes. They've gotten so bad that not only are they not academically qualified but they're also criminals. That's just frightening and wrong. These thugs have gone on to commit crimes against fellow students as well as fraud and theft.

[NastyWoman]

Oct 4, 2017 18:44:18 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Oct 4, 2017 16:21:27 GMT -5 justme said:

If we got rid of affirmative action, it's not like colleges would suddenly become merit only. Athletes routinely are accepted with subpar applications. Private schools (not sure about public) routinely give preference to legacies - to say nothing of the rich ones that buy their kid's place. I didn't need it on the academic side, but considering a relative of mine that worked at my college pulled what strings he could (and the mother of one of my roommates did for her & our other roommates) to get apartment housing when few freshman did I don't doubt some with enough clout could pull admission strings. Or maybe children of employees are given automatic preference?


That said, at my college I would guess our diversity had more to do with two large community colleges that have guaranteed acceptance to my school after completing their two year degree.

No kidding about the athletes. They've gotten so bad that not only are they not academically qualified but they're also criminals. That's just frightening and wrong. These thugs have gone on to commit crimes against fellow students as well as fraud and theft.

You mean like Brock Turner? Oh wait...he is a "good" kid whose 20 minutes of action caused him to pay a steep price.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/06/06/a-steep-price-to-pay-for-20-minutes-of-action-dad-defends-stanford-sex-offender/?utm_term=.4883d99acec6

[zibazinski]

Doesn't matter the color, if they're bad, they're bad and shouldn't be allowed on campus. I have an expectation that the school I send my kids to doesn't have criminals in it. Seems that expectation is incorrect. I think if a school is going to accept criminals, then they have an obligation to disclose this fact.

[justme]

The onus on that rarely falls on the schools. It falls on our rabid culture for sports and the ability to overlook it if it means your favorite team will still win, the culture that ruining a man's life should be seriously considered but ruining a women's isn't worth the same level of considering, and a justice system that buys into all of that.


It's hard for a college to turn down a "criminal" athlete if they've never been charged. Now, if we're talking about college covering it up that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but I think colleges are moving to a better place on this quicker than the rest of society.

[zibazinski]

Oct 4, 2017 19:04:52 GMT -5 justme said:

The onus on that rarely falls on the schools. It falls on our rabid culture for sports and the ability to overlook it if it means your favorite team will still win, the culture that ruining a man's life should be seriously considered but ruining a women's isn't worth the same level of considering, and a justice system that buys into all of that.


It's hard for a college to turn down a "criminal" athlete if they've never been charged. Now, if we're talking about college covering it up that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but I think colleges are moving to a better place on this quicker than the rest of society.

I hope you're right. I'm looking at Ohio State, Michigan State, and U if Florida and I don't see any change except for the worse.

[zibazinski]

Plus you can get juvenile records covered up but they still exist as does the person that committed the crime. I seriously doubt that White Stanford rapist had never done anything bad before that @one time" but it was covered up I'm sure.

[justme]

Oct 4, 2017 19:07:21 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Oct 4, 2017 19:04:52 GMT -5 justme said:

The onus on that rarely falls on the schools. It falls on our rabid culture for sports and the ability to overlook it if it means your favorite team will still win, the culture that ruining a man's life should be seriously considered but ruining a women's isn't worth the same level of considering, and a justice system that buys into all of that.


It's hard for a college to turn down a "criminal" athlete if they've never been charged. Now, if we're talking about college covering it up that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but I think colleges are moving to a better place on this quicker than the rest of society.

I hope you're right. I'm looking at Ohio State, Michigan State, and U if Florida and I don't see any change except for the worse.

It'll be toughest in the schools with deeply ingrained sports for sure.

[zibazinski]

Oct 4, 2017 19:10:07 GMT -5 justme said:

Oct 4, 2017 19:07:21 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I hope you're right. I'm looking at Ohio State, Michigan State, and U if Florida and I don't see any change except for the worse.

It'll be toughest in the schools with deeply ingrained sports for sure.

I know. That's why I wish colleges would stick to academic standards period.

[justme]

Well, to sort of bring it back to topic, my understanding is that more and more colleges are moving away from GPA and test scores for admittance. Which means it'll be harder for it to be just merit and harder to eek out whether there is any affect of affirmative action.

[swamp]

Oct 4, 2017 18:44:18 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Oct 4, 2017 16:21:27 GMT -5 justme said:

If we got rid of affirmative action, it's not like colleges would suddenly become merit only. Athletes routinely are accepted with subpar applications. Private schools (not sure about public) routinely give preference to legacies - to say nothing of the rich ones that buy their kid's place. I didn't need it on the academic side, but considering a relative of mine that worked at my college pulled what strings he could (and the mother of one of my roommates did for her & our other roommates) to get apartment housing when few freshman did I don't doubt some with enough clout could pull admission strings. Or maybe children of employees are given automatic preference?


That said, at my college I would guess our diversity had more to do with two large community colleges that have guaranteed acceptance to my school after completing their two year degree.

No kidding about the athletes. They've gotten so bad that not only are they not academically qualified but they're also criminals. That's just frightening and wrong. These thugs have gone on to commit crimes against fellow students as well as fraud and theft.

They've always acted like that. Now it doesn't get swept under the rug.  As much. 

[zibazinski]

Ugh

[haapai]

Oct 4, 2017 19:26:47 GMT -5 justme said:

Well, to sort of bring it back to topic, my understanding is that more and more colleges are moving away from GPA and test scores for admittance. Which means it'll be harder for it to be just merit and harder to eek out whether there is any affect of affirmative action.

Holistic admissions are a disaster for transparency of all types.  Whenever I hear the phrase, I think, "Nanny-nanny, boo-boo, we don't have to tell you what it takes to get into this still-subsidized state school". 

While the policy of holistic admissions may have been adopted to disguise the role of race in admissions, it can also obscure many other questionable admissions decisions and policies.  These can range from a complete failure to admit to the importance of AP and honors classes (i.e. fabulous indicators of wealth and the likelihood of graduation) to out and out bribes.  Preferences for out-of-state and international students (who bring in way more tuition than in-state students) may fall somewhere in the middle but there's scandal brewing there. 

[zibazinski]

Oct 4, 2017 21:25:58 GMT -5 haapai said:

Oct 4, 2017 19:26:47 GMT -5 justme said:

Well, to sort of bring it back to topic, my understanding is that more and more colleges are moving away from GPA and test scores for admittance. Which means it'll be harder for it to be just merit and harder to eek out whether there is any affect of affirmative action.

Holistic admissions are a disaster for transparency of all types.  Whenever I hear the phrase, I think, "Nanny-nanny, boo-boo, we don't have to tell you what it takes to get into this still-subsidized state school". 

While the policy of holistic admissions may have been adopted to disguise the role of race in admissions, it can also obscure many other questionable admissions decisions and policies.  These can range from a complete failure to admit to the importance of AP and honors classes (i.e. fabulous indicators of wealth and the likelihood of graduation) to out and out bribes.  Preferences for out-of-state and international students (who bring in way more tuition than in-state students) may fall somewhere in the middle but there's scandal brewing there. 

University of Michigan caught shit about that.

[haapai]

MSU ain't immune either. 

[zibazinski]

Probably not. I just see more in state students accepted to Moo U than to U of M so it's seems to be less obvious.

[haapai]

There's a certain amount of talk regarding MSU completely whoring itself to international students, especially if they can be corralled into a special summer sessions, and bending over backwards for out-of-state ones.  The tuition differential is big and out-of-state students who can fathom paying out-of-state fees tend to graduate at higher rates than similarly academically accomplished in-state ones.  It's about money, and public universities are definitely chasing tuition dollars. 

[Phoenix84]

Oct 4, 2017 11:43:22 GMT -5 milee said:

Didn't want to derail the college admissions thread, but a comment from tskeeter about how college admission is not 100% merit based made me wonder what the general feeling was regarding affirmative action in college admissions.  I'd be interested to hear from people:

1)  If they observed affirmative action in their college experience and approximately when that took place.  
2)  What impacts they believe affirmative action had at their college.
3)  If they believe affirmative action is appropriate for college admissions (why or why not?)
4)  If their views on affirmative action on college campuses differ from their views on affirmative action at a workplace setting.

1. I was in college full time from 2003-2007. I also started but never finished masters degree programs from 2007 through 2013 or so. I never experienced affirmative action first hand. I'm white, and have gotten into every college I've ever applied to. Granted I have not applied to an Ivy League or something similar, just state schools.

2. Can't say.  I don't recall noticing anything odd about the racial makeup of my school.  There were more women than men at my school, but it was a big teaching college. Racial and enthnic minority makeup was about average for that region of the country.

3. No, college admissions should be solely merit based, because we should be a post race society where one is judged by the content of their character and their abilities, not by their skin color or gender.  I am open to the possibility of affirmative action based on wealth, since I think the poor have additional barriers that need to be overcome.

4. No, my views on affirmative action do not change based on a college or workplace setting.  Regarding my experience, I haven't personally felt slighted because of my race or gender in the federal government.  I feel like I've earned the jobs I've been given over the years.  I do feel like there has been a disproportionate number of women in management at one of the agencies I worked for, but I wasn't really qualified for those jobs at the time so it didn't bother me much since I didn't have a personal stake.  My field, health physics, like most STEM fields, has always been predominantly white and male.  Things have changed some, even when I started working professionally in 2007.  When I went through radiological controls training in 2007 at a shipyard, there weren't any females in the class, and only one in my friend's class.  Now nearly half of the spots in the class are for females.  Overall, I welcome the change. 

[skubikky]

D1 sports programs for the big conference schools are major revenue producers.

This accounts for the highly aggressive recruitment of athletes who might not be qualified academically.
That being said, they provide this large income so that from administration's view, they are critical to the overall success of
many of the big NCAA sports schools.

[zibazinski]

Sad but true. Then they take easy majors that will never get them a job if they even manage to graduate. They all think the pros will snatch them up. 

[skubikky]

Oct 9, 2017 7:26:49 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Sad but true. Then they take easy majors that will never get them a job if they even manage to graduate. They all think the pros will snatch them up. 

It does vary across the board.
-Some of the athletes are reasonable students and graduate and maybe go on to a career in their major.
-Some don't play professionally but might find a position as a trainer or assistant in a small school program.
-A fraction get recruited to the pros and even then only a few make it for more than a few years.
- In the case of basketball, some go to play pro ball in the European leagues. (Roosevelt Bouie is one example of that from back in the day).

And a variety of other poor or unremarkable outcomes.

Some of these student might never have gone to college at all if it weren't for their athletic ability.
The connections and exposure they get can have a positive effect on their lives, even without the big professional sports career.

I assure you that very, very few of them believe that they'll be able to have a professional career in sports.  
They have more understanding of that than you could ever grasp.  They're right there up close and personal.
There is also a tremendous amount of pressure on these kids in the high profile D1 programs.
As I said, the monies that come to the schools from TV, bowl games, and a host of other things is a large part of how these schools run.

They're a business....that includes the NCAA.

[Deleted]

We have been undertaking diversity training at our high school.  It has been an eye opener.

One aspect that has been interesting is how hard it is for the white privileged to understand the obstacles that minorities face.  One scenario posed talked about minorities driving through an upperclass predominantly white neighborhood to get to the school that their students attend.  There are lawn signs that say, "Drive like your kids live here."  Most of us who aren't poor or a minority see that sign as innocuous.  Those less privileged see an emphasis on the word "your" and "here."  That would never have entered my consciousness.  Similarly, I view the police as a helpful resource, which makes it difficult for me to understand those that feel threatened by the police (ala "Black Lives Matter.")  A police officer might give me a ticket, but my life would not be in danger while he was doing it.  Again, it would never enter my consciousness to be afraid for my life.

Similarly, those who tout merit as the sole determinant underestimate the effects of decades of racial inequality.  Separate and nonequal schools in the 1960s and 70s had a domino effect.  The schools were subpar so it is like comparing apples to oranges.  The next generation may have had it better, but these students were essentially first-generation college students.  The colleges that their parents may have attended (if they attended) were segregated.  So there is a whole new set of obstacles.  And so on and so on.

We have to consciously try to right the wrong that was done to generations of Americans.  So sometimes that means preference or affirmative action.  For example, students need to see more than an occasional teacher that looks like them in the classroom.  It has been proven to really make a difference.  If that means a minority teacher gets hired ahead of me even though I have slightly better credentials, so be it.  There are soft skills that more than compensate in education and every other profession.  They need to see professionals of their color and race in every profession.

I know, milee, that your original question was about college's affirmative actions.  But that's where the maximum potential for righting that wrong really happens.  We need more African-American doctors or CPAs or whatever.  There are challenges that their grandparents and parents had to overcome that make it less likely that they will be accepted at the top tier schools. But given the chance, anyway, they can make a difference not only in their own lives but in future generations.  Affirmative action offers that chance.

It is hard for those of us who have been immersed in white privilege to really understand it.  I don't claim to.  But the time for racially-blind admissions hasn't arrived yet.

Just my two cents. 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Good thoughts Susanna.

I'd like to also throw out predictive validity.

No one earns or merits a college admission. The college is using its best prediction of your college success (graduating, and perhaps gpa or career or graduate school admissions) with available data.

All data has error, gpas are not equivalent across teacher s let alone different schools.

Taking into consideration the life circumstances Susanna mentioned, the same data profile is not equally predictive across students. Part of what is misunderstood is that some affirmative action, perhaps not all, is an attempt to more accurately predict performance from different students rather than "giving away" spots supposedly "earned " by others.

[milee]

Oct 9, 2017 20:10:51 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

....
I'd like to also throw out predictive validity.

No one earns or merits a college admission. The college is using its best prediction of your college success (graduating, and perhaps gpa or career or graduate school admissions) with available data.

All data has error, gpas are not equivalent across teacher s let alone different schools.

Taking into consideration the life circumstances Susanna mentioned, the same data profile is not equally predictive across students. Part of what is misunderstood is that some affirmative action, perhaps not all, is an attempt to more accurately predict performance from different students rather than "giving away" spots supposedly "earned " by others.

I've often wondered that - if different data points were uniquely predictive to certain populations.  Example - for women of a certain racial background and within ages X -Y, the SAT is predictive of future earnings vs. for men of the same background and age, senior grades were more closely correlated to future earnings... that type of difference.

We're "discovering" that the protocols developed in many of the prior medical studies - which were done on populations of 100% men - are not appropriate when the same protocols are applied to women.  It would seem reasonable that there would be some studies or data that attempted to tease out what the predictive data is for different races, sexes, etc. when it comes to college, given that we now know the same things aren't necessarily predictive across gender, races, etc.

Do you have any examples of studies that show how different data points are predictive for different students?  I'd be interested to see those studies.  

[Rukh O'Rorke]

One could google it up, likely hundreds of academic papers on it. All research that had public funding is available.

Sat and act also conduct this kind of research and it would be available on their websites.