Brookings Institute: College Students on Free Speech

[Virgil Showlion]

www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2017/09/18/views-among-college-students-regarding-the-first-amendment-results-from-a-new-survey/

Some highlights:

The survey results establish with data what has been clear anecdotally to anyone who has been observing campus dynamics in recent years: Freedom of expression is deeply imperiled on U.S. campuses. In fact, despite protestations to the contrary (often with statements like “we fully support the First Amendment, but…), freedom of expression is clearly not, in practice, available on many campuses, including many public campuses that have First Amendment obligations.

...

While “hate speech” is odious, as long as it steers clear of well-established exceptions to the First Amendment such as those noted above, it is constitutionally protected. The survey results, however, indicate that many college students believe that hate speech is unprotected.

...

The survey included a set of questions considering student views regarding actions aimed at disrupting [controversial] speech:

A student group opposed to the speaker disrupts the speech by loudly and repeatedly shouting so that the audience cannot hear the speaker. Do you agree or disagree that the student group’s actions are acceptable?

The responses to the above question show a very distinct variation across political affiliation, with 62 percent of Democrats but “only” 39 percent of Republicans agreeing that it was acceptable to shout down the speaker. More generally, I find the numbers in the above table to be highly concerning, because they show that a very significant fraction of students, across all categories, believe it is acceptable to silence (by shouting) a speaker they find offensive. And, it gets worse:

A student group opposed to the speaker uses violence to prevent the speaker from speaking. Do you agree or disagree that the student group’s actions are acceptable?

These results are notable for several reasons. First, the fraction of students who view the use of violence as acceptable is extremely high. While percentages in the high teens and 20s are “low” relative to what they could be, it’s important to remember that this question is asking about the acceptability of committing violence in order to silence speech. Any number significantly above zero is concerning. The gender difference in the responses is also notable.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody on YMAM approves of violence and very few approve of harassment/shouting down speakers.

But the millennial nutters are coming for us.

[happyhoix]

Well, most people are a little nuts in college. I include myself.

Once they move out on their own and have to start supporting themselves they settle down. Look at what happened in the 60's.

 

 

[Virgil Showlion]

Sept 21, 2017 13:09:45 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Well, most people are a little nuts in college. I include myself.

Once they move out on their own and have to start supporting themselves they settle down. Look at what happened in the 60's.

The 60's was the universities trying to silence the students. Today it's the students trying to silence the universities.

[happyhoix]

Yes, but just like the hippies in the 60's found out when they entered the real world and discovered their employers didn't want to hear that crap,  the millennials are finding out when they get thrust into the cold hard world that employers expect them to shut up, do their work, and not get on their soap boxes about whatever their current passion is (at least not at work).

Not long ago, DH and I visited a lovely B and B in Asheville NC and as we were leaving for the evening we asked the millennial desk clerk if she could recommend any good restaurants. The desk clerk informed us in a snarky manner that she was a very strict vegan who had special rules on what she would or wouldn't eat and she couldn't recommend any restaurants for 'regular' people (only the 'regular' came out like 'subhuman flesh gnawers' when she said it) Then she turned her back on us without further comment.  Wanna bet that sooner or later her boss would overhear that and give her a list of local restaurants she needed to provide to any future guests, sans any commentary - unless she wanted to go seek employment as a waitress at a vegan restaurant?  

Millennials with trust funds will be able to continue their efforts to shout down everyone else, but anyone who has to work for a living will quickly learn that won't work.  

[mmhmm]

Sept 21, 2017 13:19:10 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Sept 21, 2017 13:09:45 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Well, most people are a little nuts in college. I include myself.

Once they move out on their own and have to start supporting themselves they settle down. Look at what happened in the 60's.

The 60's was the universities trying to silence the students. Today it's the students trying to silence the universities.

I was there, Virgil. We (the students) were trying just as hard to silence the universities. It's never a one-way trip, in my experience. I think happyhoix is right. When we're young and still learning we think we know it all. As we grow, we learn we don't know the half of it and probably never will. We accept that but keep trying to learn. That, to me, is what life is about.

[dondub]

I recall we were trying to silence the Vietnam War more than anything.

I'm hoping most here are watching Ken Burns Vietnam documentary. Fortunately I had the 2S deferment and then high lottery numbers or I would be Virgil's neighbor.

[ken a.k.a OMK]

I remember the 60's.   The draft lottery after I already enlisted. I'm DVRing the Vietnam documentary. Not sure I wanted to relive it. I watched the first episode last night and learned a lot about the early history and the French occupation.  Things we were told in the 60's that weren't true.

[happyhoix]

I've been watching bits and pieces when I can.

Not at all how I remember it, but I was young at the time and didn't pay a lot of attention to the news.

Does seem like the military/politicians led us all down a garden path, but then, Washington probably lied about how successful his campaigns were, too.

Some of the details are excessively grisly - I hope this isn't triggering any vets.... If anyone doubts that PTSD could be a real thing, they should watch.

[dondub]

  We were lied to repeatedly by our war criminals in D.C. I highly recommend A Bright And Shining Lie by Neil Sheehan. John Paul Vann was a very interesting man. And

many are not aware that Daniel Ellsberg had the following background. The truthfulness of the Pentagon Papers turned the tide. He is a hero of mine for doing that.

Ellsberg entered Harvard College on a scholarship, graduating summa semen laude with an A.B. in economics in 1952. He studied at the University of Cambridge for a year on a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship, then returned to Harvard for graduate school. In 1954, he enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps and earned a commission.[4] He served as a platoon leader and company commander in the 2nd Infantry Division, and was discharged in 1957 as a first lieutenant.[4] Ellsberg returned to Harvard as a Junior Fellow in the Harvard Society of Fellows for two years, then began working as a strategic analyst at the RAND Corporation, where he concentrated on nuclear strategy[4] and the command and control of nuclear weapons.

Ellsberg completed a PhD in Economics from Harvard in 1962.[4] His dissertation on decision theory was based on a set of thought experiments that showed that decisions under conditions of uncertainty or ambiguity generally may not be consistent with well defined subjective probabilities. Now known as the Ellsberg paradox,[5] this formed the basis of a large literature that has developed since the 1980s, including approaches such as Choquet expected utility and info-gap decision theory.

Ellsberg worked in the Pentagon from August 1964[6] under Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara as special assistant to the Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs John McNaughton. He then went to South Vietnam for two years, working for General Edward Lansdale as a member of the State Department.

On his return from South Vietnam, Ellsberg resumed working at RAND. In 1967, he contributed to a top-secret study of classified documents on the conduct of the Vietnam War that had been commissioned by Defense Secretary McNamara.[7] These documents, completed in 1968, later became known collectively as the Pentagon Papers.[8]

wikipedia

[kadee79]

It won't be watched in this house. My DH did 3 tours in Nam, he had enough of it! And yes, he has PTSD and I get to live with the effects of that every day & every night! And if you haven't lived it, you don't have the slightest idea what it's all about either!

[billisonboard]

Sept 21, 2017 15:21:05 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

... the French occupation. ...

A personal favorite little bit from the TV show MASH was a shot of the camp with the speaker in the foreground. The news was being broadcast. One story was, "The French have just announced that the Vietnam War will soon be over."

[ken a.k.a OMK]

Sept 21, 2017 20:54:36 GMT -5 kadee79 said:

It won't be watched in this house. My DH did 3 tours in Nam, he had enough of it! And yes, he has PTSD and I get to live with the effects of that every day & every night! And if you haven't lived it, you don't have the slightest idea what it's all about either!

I thank your DH for his service and you for your service as a spouse. I may not watch it all when it gets into our involvement but the early history was very revealing. I was on active duty 1969 - 1973 but was stationed state side in a support/training role.

[Phoenix84]

Sept 21, 2017 13:34:52 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Yes, but just like the hippies in the 60's found out when they entered the real world and discovered their employers didn't want to hear that crap,  the millennials are finding out when they get thrust into the cold hard world that employers expect them to shut up, do their work, and not get on their soap boxes about whatever their current passion is (at least not at work).

Not long ago, DH and I visited a lovely B and B in Asheville NC and as we were leaving for the evening we asked the millennial desk clerk if she could recommend any good restaurants. The desk clerk informed us in a snarky manner that she was a very strict vegan who had special rules on what she would or wouldn't eat and she couldn't recommend any restaurants for 'regular' people (only the 'regular' came out like 'subhuman flesh gnawers' when she said it) Then she turned her back on us without further comment.  Wanna bet that sooner or later her boss would overhear that and give her a list of local restaurants she needed to provide to any future guests, sans any commentary - unless she wanted to go seek employment as a waitress at a vegan restaurant?  

Millennials with trust funds will be able to continue their efforts to shout down everyone else, but anyone who has to work for a living will quickly learn that won't work.  

You were too nice.  I'm generally the last one to talk to a manager about an employees performance, but I would not let that slide. 

[Phoenix84]

I think there's definitely truth to what Virgil is saying, but I think we focus too much on a small, vocal minority. I think the term "silent majority" also applies to college students. Most of them are at least somewhat sane.

[Virgil Showlion]

Sept 22, 2017 7:40:37 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think there's definitely truth to what Virgil is saying, but I think we focus too much on a small, vocal minority. I think the term "silent majority" also applies to college students. Most of them are at least somewhat sane.

According to the survey, roughly 50% believe it's acceptable to silence a speaker by screaming over them, and 20% believe violence is acceptable. I agree with the author that this is more than a "small, vocal minority".

The comparisons with the anti-war protests in the 1960's also don't sit well with me. There are common elements, but the activism in the 1960's was focused on a life-or-death issue: the draft. Men's lives hung in the balance. I can understand and appreciate the need to speak out.

The riots and censorship we're seeing today concern mere ideas. These speakers aren't instituting a draft, sending men off to die overseas. The conservative students speaking their minds on campus aren't military recruiters. The millennials are going to war against ideas, just as the state waged war on communism during the McCarthy era. And the colleges--especially the liberal arts colleges--are appeasing them, when the very idea should be anathema to them.

[OldCoyote]

Sept 21, 2017 13:50:36 GMT -5 dondub said:

I recall we were trying to silence the Vietnam War more than anything.

I'm hoping most here are watching Ken Burns Vietnam documentary. Fortunately I had the 2S deferment and then high lottery numbers or I would be Virgil's neighbor.

You know, I would not have expected any less from you!

At that time I had already passed my tests to be a Warrant Officer helicopter pilot full well knowing that I would be heading to Vietnam,

I also knew the high mortality rate with the helicopter pilots!  I was more than willing to defend the Flag and My Country!

If Ratchets were still posting,,, I am sure he would be more than happy to point you in a direction!

[dondub]

You know, I would not have expected any less from you!

 Thankyou for assuming I was the type of American that was willing to exercise my right to dissent the policies of the lying war criminals that ran our government, especially
that treasonous slime dog Nixxon who actually consorted with the enemy to despoil the peace talks. To this day I feel Kissinger should be in prison.

At that time I had already passed my tests to be a Warrant Officer helicopter pilot full well knowing that I would be heading to Vietnam,

I also knew the high mortality rate with the helicopter pilots! I was more than willing to defend the Flag and My Country!

 I'm sorry that you feel you were defending the flag and the country when that was not even remotely the case. Although I appreciate your service

you were duped by nefarious forces into believing something untrue.

If Ratchets were still posting,,, I am sure he would be more than happy to point you in a direction!

 Who cares about ratchets direction. 

[OldCoyote]

Sept 26, 2017 0:01:49 GMT -5 dondub said:

You know, I would not have expected any less from you!

 Thankyou for assuming I was the type of American that was willing to exercise my right to dissent the policies of the lying war criminals that ran our government, especially
that treasonous slime dog Nixxon who actually consorted with the enemy to despoil the peace talks. To this day I feel Kissinger should be in prison.

At that time I had already passed my tests to be a Warrant Officer helicopter pilot full well knowing that I would be heading to Vietnam,

I also knew the high mortality rate with the helicopter pilots! I was more than willing to defend the Flag and My Country!

 I'm sorry that you feel you were defending the flag and the country when that was not even remotely the case. Although I appreciate your service

you were duped by nefarious forces into believing something untrue.

If Ratchets were still posting,,, I am sure he would be more than happy to point you in a direction!

 Who cares about ratchets direction. 

Let me clarify something, I never served in the military.  I had a medical condition, duodenal ulcer, that keep me out of the Army.

The day of the induction, after I was rejected, I climbed on a city bus. Went to my Dr. Office, had him sign a letter that I had no disability, my condition was excellent.

I took it back to the induction center. It changed nothing.

[dondub]

You're still here!    

[NastyWoman]

Sept 21, 2017 13:41:39 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 21, 2017 13:19:10 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

The 60's was the universities trying to silence the students. Today it's the students trying to silence the universities.

I was there, Virgil. We (the students) were trying just as hard to silence the universities. It's never a one-way trip, in my experience. I think happyhoix is right. When we're young and still learning we think we know it all. As we grow, we learn we don't know the half of it and probably never will. We accept that but keep trying to learn. That, to me, is what life is about.

And that is a good thing. Society does (slowly) change in no small part due to the fact that each idealistic generation is followed by a new one. Because as we age we find out  "we don't know the half of it and probably never will" so we go about our lives and raise families, or not, but become less driven to fight for change. Not that the drive to fight for change goes away completely, but there are sdo many other things that need our attention and just a limited amount of time each day...

So while I don't always agree with the changes students propose, I for one am happy when they are not complacent and find their status quo acceptable without challenge. We may have it better today than any generation in the past but there is much that still needs improvement.

[Virgil Showlion]

Sept 26, 2017 19:47:17 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Sept 21, 2017 13:41:39 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I was there, Virgil. We (the students) were trying just as hard to silence the universities. It's never a one-way trip, in my experience. I think happyhoix is right. When we're young and still learning we think we know it all. As we grow, we learn we don't know the half of it and probably never will. We accept that but keep trying to learn. That, to me, is what life is about.

And that is a good thing. Society does (slowly) change in no small part due to the fact that each idealistic generation is followed by a new one. Because as we age we find out  "we don't know the half of it and probably never will" so we go about our lives and raise families, or not, but become less driven to fight for change. Not that the drive to fight for change goes away completely, but there are sdo many other things that need our attention and just a limited amount of time each day...

So while I don't always agree with the changes students propose, I for one am happy when they are not complacent and find their status quo acceptable without challenge. We may have it better today than any generation in the past but there is much that still needs improvement.

I could only wish the fruits of their labours didn't belie their desire to effect positive change. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.