thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 17, 2017 10:19:28 GMT -5
1. We have no proof he has done anything illegal. I am not stating he is innocent, just that I respect the process. No proof means no punishment.
2. He is keeping the Republican party in chaos and disarray. With a better leader they would have repealed ACA and their replacement would not have been better. They will continue to be fractionalized and unable to agree to any major policy decisions. I like it when government gets nothing done.
3. Pence will be a better leader and will get a lot done on social policies I disagree with. This may be a huge plus for many people.
4. The stock market knows no new taxes and no new regulations are coming their way, so I am reaping the benefits. If Pence promised to continue those policies, this may be moot, but we just don't know.
5. Comedians.
6. If he is removed via impeachment for some vague reason, it will weaken the country and give people who have felt unrepresented further proof that they do not matter. Alt-right and other conservative groups will have fair reason to believe the system is rigged, and even when they vote and win fair and square, they still lose. No telling the path that could take.
The tradeoff - disastrous foreign relations, and a high level of discomfort domestically.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 17, 2017 10:35:47 GMT -5
As for #1, I'll reserve judgment on that for when the Mueller report comes out. If he explores the muddy waters of money laundering very much, I think we'll find some illegal stuff - just maybe not illegal stuff that happened when Trump was president. Is that enough to impeach a president? I don't know.
I agree with all your other items, though, especially 5 and 6.
I don't think it would be possible to impeach him with the GOP dominated house and senate, though. Even as unpopular as Trump has become, and what a liability to the GOP, I don't see them voting against their own party member.
More likely that he will resign, or that a less crazy GOP candidate will grab the nomination away from him in 2020 and we'll get a different GOP president for the next 4 years.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 17, 2017 10:59:41 GMT -5
#6 is the most important, and I do agree that just because we have no proof yet, doesn't mean there won't be any in the future.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 17, 2017 11:24:00 GMT -5
I don't see Trump getting impeached unless there's rock solid evidence that Trump himself did something clearly illegal. I'm not talking about the appearances of impropriety, or that one of his advisors did something illegal or inappropriate, but Trump specifically. And honestly, I don't think any evidence short of audiotaped or videotaped evidence would meet the necessary definition of "rock solid." In the end, everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. And even if a crime was committed, and Trump is guilty, the evidence has to be there and meet the high threshold of reasonable doubt.
Otherwise, the narrative will surface (and not without merit) that he was the victim of a witch hunt and rail roaded out of office, especially if it's on some legal technicality.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 17, 2017 11:30:29 GMT -5
As for #1, I'll reserve judgment on that for when the Mueller report comes out. If he explores the muddy waters of money laundering very much, I think we'll find some illegal stuff - just maybe not illegal stuff that happened when Trump was president. Is that enough to impeach a president? I don't know.
I agree with all your other items, though, especially 5 and 6.
I don't think it would be possible to impeach him with the GOP dominated house and senate, though. Even as unpopular as Trump has become, and what a liability to the GOP, I don't see them voting against their own party member.
More likely that he will resign, or that a less crazy GOP candidate will grab the nomination away from him in 2020 and we'll get a different GOP president for the next 4 years.
I'm not a lawyer or legal scholar, but from what I've read on the subject, anything outside collusion with Russians is off the table for the investigation, as it exceeds the mandate given to Mueller. The special council was only appointed for one very specific purpose, it was not a blanket investigation into all aspects of Trump's history. If Mueller does step outside the mandate given to him by the assistant attorney general, it would cast doubt on his findings and be cause for his removal as special counsel.
I'm sure Mueller knows this though. But all in all I don't anticipate any charges unrelated to possible Russia collusion, if any charges are brought at all of course.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 17, 2017 11:46:28 GMT -5
As for #1, I'll reserve judgment on that for when the Mueller report comes out. If he explores the muddy waters of money laundering very much, I think we'll find some illegal stuff - just maybe not illegal stuff that happened when Trump was president. Is that enough to impeach a president? I don't know.
I agree with all your other items, though, especially 5 and 6.
I don't think it would be possible to impeach him with the GOP dominated house and senate, though. Even as unpopular as Trump has become, and what a liability to the GOP, I don't see them voting against their own party member.
More likely that he will resign, or that a less crazy GOP candidate will grab the nomination away from him in 2020 and we'll get a different GOP president for the next 4 years.
I'm not a lawyer or legal scholar, but from what I've read on the subject, anything outside collusion with Russians is off the table for the investigation, as it exceeds the mandate given to Mueller. The special council was only appointed for one very specific purpose, it was not a blanket investigation into all aspects of Trump's history. If Mueller does step outside the mandate given to him by the assistant attorney general, it would cast doubt on his findings and be cause for his removal as special counsel.
I'm sure Mueller knows this though. But all in all I don't anticipate any charges unrelated to possible Russia collusion, if any charges are brought at all of course.
the money laundering has to do with russia - and why they would have helped him. If they did help - they didn't do it for nothing.
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steff
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Post by steff on Aug 17, 2017 11:53:49 GMT -5
I'm just as anxious to see what the NY AG finds. He's looking into money laundering and human trafficking.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Aug 17, 2017 12:03:47 GMT -5
I'm not a lawyer or legal scholar, but from what I've read on the subject, anything outside collusion with Russians is off the table for the investigation, as it exceeds the mandate given to Mueller. The special council was only appointed for one very specific purpose, it was not a blanket investigation into all aspects of Trump's history. If Mueller does step outside the mandate given to him by the assistant attorney general, it would cast doubt on his findings and be cause for his removal as special counsel.
I'm sure Mueller knows this though. But all in all I don't anticipate any charges unrelated to possible Russia collusion, if any charges are brought at all of course.
I very rarely post on this board but I just wanted to point something out. Kenneth Starr was appointed as Special Counsel to investigate an Arkansas land deal gone bad (Whitewater). He was most certainly not removed as special counsel after he started digging into everything and anything related to the Clintons.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 17, 2017 12:59:23 GMT -5
I'm not a lawyer or legal scholar, but from what I've read on the subject, anything outside collusion with Russians is off the table for the investigation, as it exceeds the mandate given to Mueller. The special council was only appointed for one very specific purpose, it was not a blanket investigation into all aspects of Trump's history. If Mueller does step outside the mandate given to him by the assistant attorney general, it would cast doubt on his findings and be cause for his removal as special counsel.
I'm sure Mueller knows this though. But all in all I don't anticipate any charges unrelated to possible Russia collusion, if any charges are brought at all of course.
I very rarely post on this board but I just wanted to point something out. Kenneth Starr was appointed as Special Counsel to investigate an Arkansas land deal gone bad (Whitewater). He was most certainly not removed as special counsel after he started digging into everything and anything related to the Clintons. That was different. Kenneth Starr was appointed a special prosecutor under a legacy law passed either during or after the Nixon resignation. The law governing Starr's appointment expired. The appointment of Mueller as special counsel is altogether different, with a different set of rules.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 17, 2017 13:09:26 GMT -5
I'm just as anxious to see what the NY AG finds. He's looking into money laundering and human trafficking. Schneiderman is a bulldog. He's not going to cut any slack. I'm following his investigation closely, as well.
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steff
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Post by steff on Aug 17, 2017 13:10:01 GMT -5
So if Mueller finds that trump has been laundering Russian money & is indebted to Russia, you're okay with it? Not a big deal since it's outside the "scope"? He should continue to be president if there's proof?
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steff
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Post by steff on Aug 17, 2017 13:10:47 GMT -5
I'm just as anxious to see what the NY AG finds. He's looking into money laundering and human trafficking. Schneiderman is a bulldog. He's not going to cut any slack. I'm following his investigation closely, as well. I think what he finds is going to be much much much worse than what Mueller finds if human trafficking is involved.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 13:26:25 GMT -5
So far all I've seen is a pile of "maybe's". Those can go on forever in the arena of politics. I'm not worried in the least bit.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Aug 17, 2017 13:35:33 GMT -5
1. We have no proof he has done anything illegal. I am not stating he is innocent, just that I respect the process. No proof means no punishment. 2. He is keeping the Republican party in chaos and disarray. With a better leader they would have repealed ACA and their replacement would not have been better. They will continue to be fractionalized and unable to agree to any major policy decisions. I like it when government gets nothing done. 3. Pence will be a better leader and will get a lot done on social policies I disagree with. This may be a huge plus for many people. 4. The stock market knows no new taxes and no new regulations are coming their way, so I am reaping the benefits. If Pence promised to continue those policies, this may be moot, but we just don't know. 5. Comedians. 6. If he is removed via impeachment for some vague reason, it will weaken the country and give people who have felt unrepresented further proof that they do not matter. Alt-right and other conservative groups will have fair reason to believe the system is rigged, and even when they vote and win fair and square, they still lose. No telling the path that could take. The tradeoff - disastrous foreign relations, and a high level of discomfort domestically. First of all, I am not trying to hijack the thread, but on #1, there was a report somewhere either yesterday or the day before, a high ranking lawyer in the investigation resigned this week. Has anyone seen anything on this? Did he resign over being upset in the direction of the investigation going in either direction? Maybe the investigation is not going fast enough or they are not finding anything?
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Aug 17, 2017 13:37:43 GMT -5
I say go for the Impeachment if you want. I want Pence in there to carry out his vision, which is further to the right of anything Trump wants. Plus he will have the backing in Congress to get it passed!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 17, 2017 13:39:30 GMT -5
I say go for the Impeachment if you want. I want Pence in there to carry out his vision, which is further to the right of anything Trump wants. Plus he will have the backing in Congress to get it passed! Hence my point #3. I am opposed to Pence, but I know he will get things done.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Aug 17, 2017 14:36:30 GMT -5
I would NEVER want Pence, or any other man who thinks he deserves even one tiny say in regards to my reproductive choices. Sorry men, but what I do with my body is MY decision. Your religious views don't mean shit to me. What a nut jub Pence is.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Aug 17, 2017 19:13:33 GMT -5
#3 is enough reason for me
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 20:35:35 GMT -5
#3 is enough for me as well (although I wouldn't characterize anyone with his batshit crazy religious zealotry as "a better leader").
I may think Trump sucks at the job (he does)... but he's better than Pence. At least nothing is really getting done under Trump.
Isn't that a sad statement on our system that we can be happy nothing is getting done? That's a really low bar for expectations of our government "accomplish nothing and we'll be happy".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 20:44:32 GMT -5
I don't think even those attempting impeachment want impeachment. I think they want to force republicans to defend.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 17, 2017 20:58:30 GMT -5
1. We have no proof he has done anything illegal. I am not stating he is innocent, just that I respect the process. No proof means no punishment. 2. He is keeping the Republican party in chaos and disarray. With a better leader they would have repealed ACA and their replacement would not have been better. They will continue to be fractionalized and unable to agree to any major policy decisions. I like it when government gets nothing done. 3. Pence will be a better leader and will get a lot done on social policies I disagree with. This may be a huge plus for many people. 4. The stock market knows no new taxes and no new regulations are coming their way, so I am reaping the benefits. If Pence promised to continue those policies, this may be moot, but we just don't know. 5. Comedians. 6. If he is removed via impeachment for some vague reason, it will weaken the country and give people who have felt unrepresented further proof that they do not matter. Alt-right and other conservative groups will have fair reason to believe the system is rigged, and even when they vote and win fair and square, they still lose. No telling the path that could take. The tradeoff - disastrous foreign relations, and a high level of discomfort domestically. #1 - of course wait for proof #2-#5 may or may not be better/worse if impeachment is done. should be determined based on evidence, not fears of collateral damage. #6 - what on earth would be "some vague reason" for impeachment? I can't see that happening at all. Would need quite a few GOPpers so sign on to it. The rationale would have to be solid, imo. If he's impeached with proof of impeachable actions, let it go forward. These fringe groups are become louder and more emboldened via trump. Best to remove that asap imo.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Aug 17, 2017 21:25:18 GMT -5
I would NEVER want Pence, or any other man who thinks he deserves even one tiny say in regards to my reproductive choices. Sorry men, but what I do with my body is MY decision. Your religious views don't mean shit to me. What a nut jub Pence is.
Yes after he is elected the next President I imagine any future statue of him ever going up will be immediately demanded to be torn down and destroyed by all females in the country.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 21:30:10 GMT -5
I don't think his statue would be alowed to be in a room alone with women.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 17, 2017 21:38:14 GMT -5
#3 is enough for me as well (although I wouldn't characterize anyone with his batshit crazy religious zealotry as "a better leader"). I may think Trump sucks at the job (he does)... but he's better than Pence. At least nothing is really getting done under Trump. Isn't that a sad statement on our system that we can be happy nothing is getting done? That's a really low bar for expectations of our government "accomplish nothing and we'll be happy". My definition of a 'good leader' in thos case is someone who can rally a group to all go in the same direction and get that group to accomplish something. Someone who can inspire purpose and action in a large group and have them work together for that purpose. There are many good leaders out there that I totally disagree with. Pence is crazy religious, and if he is able to rally moderate republicans towards a purpose, God centered or not, he will be a leader.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Aug 17, 2017 22:48:00 GMT -5
#3 is my reason too. Pence scares me and he is far more politically competent. The GOP that united to get Trump out would be viewed as maverick heroes and I'm terrified of what Pence would push and how successful he would be.
And that is pretty much the mirror image of why mainstream Republicans held their noses and pulled a lever for Trump. I've laughed at, woe-be'd, and generally smugly pitied those folks for months and now the shoe is on the other foot. As things now stand, I'm seriously arguing that it's better to have a man like Trump have nuclear launch codes than to have a functional Republican president. What is wrong with me?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 23:13:14 GMT -5
This was actually one of my reasons that Trump was a better option than Clinton... the theory that it was very likely that Trump wouldn't actually accomplish anything, whereas Clinton would've added on to Obama's disasters making them worse by leaps and bounds.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 18, 2017 0:17:07 GMT -5
So, the appointments Trump has made aren't doing anything? The positions still open have certainly put a lot of departments/areas into a holding pattern.
Trump actually initiated quite a bit of change...
if they don't do anything with the ACA - isn't that the same as killing it -- and causing a lot of suffering along the way?
As for the Stock Market - I think it's still waiting for Trump to do something... no new taxes or no new regulations isn't enough... it wants/is waiting for TAX REFORM.... and that's not looking so likely to happen....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 1:37:12 GMT -5
So, the appointments Trump has made aren't doing anything? The positions still open have certainly put a lot of departments/areas into a holding pattern. Trump actually initiated quite a bit of change... if they don't do anything with the ACA - isn't that the same as killing it -- and causing a lot of suffering along the way? As for the Stock Market - I think it's still waiting for Trump to do something... no new taxes or no new regulations isn't enough... it wants/is waiting for TAX REFORM.... and that's not looking so likely to happen.... The appointments Trump made aren't doing much of anything, and what little damage they are doing is pretty easily reversible... if the 2020 winner (hopefully NOT Trump) gets to work and appoints reasonable cabinet and department heads. The ACA is going to implode soon after Obama left office anyway. EVERYONE that understood the law already knew that. It can't be stopped, only replaced. I'd like it replaced with what Republicans promised (better, cheaper, covers everyone)... but I'm not going to hold my breath... failing that, I'd like them to not replace it with something WORSE. Just let it die and maybe next time the Democrats pass a healthcare "reform" they won't fuck it up (and yes, that's how badly they screwed up that law... they fucked it up. No other way to legitimately describe it. They had the power and votes to do it right... and they couldn't do it), by making it all about the private insurance companies. The Stock Market is correcting. Corrections happen.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 18, 2017 7:50:54 GMT -5
I don't think even those attempting impeachment want impeachment. I think they want to force republicans to defend. I think this is true. The investigations and threats of impeachment are more to score political points and try to win future elections than about really removing Trump from office.
I'm glad at least one democrat is willing to admit it.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 18, 2017 7:57:54 GMT -5
I don't think even those attempting impeachment want impeachment. I think they want to force republicans to defend. I want Trump gone. Pence as well. Unfortunately it is too early for impeachment, which has yet to fully work in two tries in our entire history. There would need to be grounds for it. Hopefully better than Trump lying under oath during an investigation on him.
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