Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Apr 30, 2017 19:52:55 GMT -5
The Taxation Is Theft Meme Has Officially Gone Mainstream...
Last week, a customer at a Missouri restaurant gave the waitress a “personal gift” instead of a tip, writing the now popular line “Taxation is theft” in the tip section of the receipt.
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But as that discussion developed, reporters were quick to realize that when personal gifts are in the mix, the taxman can’t take part of those earnings away. After all, a gift would have to exceed $13,000 to be subject to taxation, meaning that even if the customer had spent hundreds, the “personal gift” would not amount to anything close to the requirements stipulated by the IRS.
With that, ladies and gentlemen, it becomes easier to not only tip with class, but also with substance, giving your waiter a lesson on what’s moral and how to legally go around the rules to make sure they enjoy their full tip — not just the percentage deemed to be fit by the federal government. The author of the article (Ms. Salles) believes that all taxation is theft. I doubt anyone here would agree with this, but I'm curious about what people think of the "personal gift" tactic being employed. A tip, more formally known as a gratuity, is for all intents and purposes a gift. It's optional, and the custom was conceived as a way for customers to show gratitude for good service (hence the term "gratuity"). At the same time, the government can tax whatever it wants to, including gifts. This tactic is pretty obvious "black hat" loophole--something that may be legal but definitely not what the government intends. Hence, what say you? Is using the loophole immoral? Is not using the loophole immoral (as Ms. Salles contends)? Does it matter? Should the government tax gratuities?
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Apr 30, 2017 23:00:37 GMT -5
Thanks for posting that Paul.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2017 23:10:52 GMT -5
I'll remember that if I ever do a "here's an extra hundred, because you work hard and I want to do something nice for someone" kind of thing.
I don't think I'll be doing it for the fiver I leave on the table after The Wife and I go to I-Hop for a $20 breakfast though.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on May 1, 2017 1:40:11 GMT -5
I think if you want to gift somebody money just because you want to give them money that should be done outside of their profession while earning their pay. If the person is working and earning an income as a wait staff then it's not a gift. You were paying that person extra for doing their job well.
Personally, I wish we were like Japan and other European countries and did away with tipping all together. And I'd like just once to be able to pay a set price for something without all the add ons like cable and phone companies do after quoting you a price and then doubling the charge with all their bogus taxing and fees - but I'm getting off topic here.
I also feel if you use the roads, schools, and other such facilities that Federal taxes pay for then you should pay like everybody else does. Why should only some pay and not others?
I wish people understood that living in a free country doesn't mean you get a free ride on everything that everybody else has to pay for - full time. Getting a little help now and then utilizing various programs is one thing but taking and taking all the time... You're not that special! Pay your share!!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 1, 2017 10:11:42 GMT -5
I really like the idea, I think. Most restaurants (to my knowledge) pay less than minimum wage and expect their wait staff to make up the difference in tips. That's always seemed a bit cheesy to me. Showing my appreciation for good service through a gift is an idea I wish I'd thought of before.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on May 1, 2017 10:33:41 GMT -5
It is not up to the giver to determine the taxability of the tip/gift. There is no loophole, because there is no hole. Every IRS auditor who reviewed the evidence in the story would determine the amount in question to be a tip and therefore taxable as any other tip.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 1, 2017 13:28:39 GMT -5
Fix the real problem. Abolish tipping and have prices be both real and transparent. Tipping is a stupid practice in general, and the "coercive" nature of the current system is beyond ridiculous. And that does not even touch on the tax fraud possibility as deminmaine mentioned.
That being said, yes, this is a tip and should be reported as such. A personal gift is not contingent on the performance of one's job.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 1, 2017 14:21:47 GMT -5
I really like the idea, I think. Most restaurants (to my knowledge) pay less than minimum wage and expect their wait staff to make up the difference in tips. That's always seemed a bit cheesy to me. Showing my appreciation for good service through a gift is an idea I wish I'd thought of before. This is very state specific. I know that it is not true in either Washington state or California. Minimum wage as of January in California is $10.50/hr. And that is the wage servers get paid. Tips, for which the expectations forever seem to creep up as a percentage of the cost of the meal, are earned on top of that. I too would much prefer to do away with the tipping system but don't see that happen any time soon, if at all.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 1, 2017 14:25:04 GMT -5
I'm going to start calling payments from my clients gifts. That way, I don't have to pay income tax.
I don't see how this can go wrong................
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 1, 2017 15:35:46 GMT -5
Fix the real problem. Abolish tipping and have prices be both real and transparent. Tipping is a stupid practice in general, and the "coercive" nature of the current system is beyond ridiculous. And that does not even touch on the tax fraud possibility as deminmaine mentioned. That being said, yes, this is a tip and should be reported as such. A personal gift is not contingent on the performance of one's job. This. When we were in Europe, no tip was expected, as the wait staff was paid fairly.
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Rob Base 2.0
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Post by Rob Base 2.0 on May 1, 2017 15:44:10 GMT -5
I'm going to start calling payments from my clients gifts. That way, I don't have to pay income tax.
I don't see how this can go wrong................ But the problem will be if the clients want to call them "gifts" as well. I suspectuous some of them will want to "expense" the payments as legal expenses vice gifts.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 1, 2017 15:47:20 GMT -5
I'm going to start calling payments from my clients gifts. That way, I don't have to pay income tax.
I don't see how this can go wrong................ But the problem will be if the clients want to call them "gifts" as well. I suspectuous some of them will want to "expense" the payments as legal expenses vice gifts. Oooh, dirty gifts!!! Yay!!!!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 1, 2017 15:50:55 GMT -5
The Taxation Is Theft Meme Has Officially Gone Mainstream...
Last week, a customer at a Missouri restaurant gave the waitress a “personal gift” instead of a tip, writing the now popular line “Taxation is theft” in the tip section of the receipt.
...
But as that discussion developed, reporters were quick to realize that when personal gifts are in the mix, the taxman can’t take part of those earnings away. After all, a gift would have to exceed $13,000 to be subject to taxation, meaning that even if the customer had spent hundreds, the “personal gift” would not amount to anything close to the requirements stipulated by the IRS.
With that, ladies and gentlemen, it becomes easier to not only tip with class, but also with substance, giving your waiter a lesson on what’s moral and how to legally go around the rules to make sure they enjoy their full tip — not just the percentage deemed to be fit by the federal government. The author of the article (Ms. Salles) believes that all taxation is theft. I doubt anyone here would agree with this, but I'm curious about what people think of the "personal gift" tactic being employed. A tip, more formally known as a gratuity, is for all intents and purposes a gift. It's optional, and the custom was conceived as a way for customers to show gratitude for good service (hence the term "gratuity"). At the same time, the government can tax whatever it wants to, including gifts. This tactic is pretty obvious "black hat" loophole--something that may be legal but definitely not what the government intends. Hence, what say you? Is using the loophole immoral? Is not using the loophole immoral (as Ms. Salles contends)? Does it matter? Should the government tax gratuities? My mom had a great way for deducing whether or not something was yours, the alternative being- you stole it: Was it yours to begin with, or did someone willingly give it to you? If not, you stole it. I do not willingly pay my taxes. I pay my taxes because if I don't, the government will seize my assets, or put me into prison- and if I resist, they will kill me. I pay taxes for NO OTHER REASON. It is armed robbery.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 1, 2017 15:53:24 GMT -5
The Taxation Is Theft Meme Has Officially Gone Mainstream...
Last week, a customer at a Missouri restaurant gave the waitress a “personal gift” instead of a tip, writing the now popular line “Taxation is theft” in the tip section of the receipt.
...
But as that discussion developed, reporters were quick to realize that when personal gifts are in the mix, the taxman can’t take part of those earnings away. After all, a gift would have to exceed $13,000 to be subject to taxation, meaning that even if the customer had spent hundreds, the “personal gift” would not amount to anything close to the requirements stipulated by the IRS.
With that, ladies and gentlemen, it becomes easier to not only tip with class, but also with substance, giving your waiter a lesson on what’s moral and how to legally go around the rules to make sure they enjoy their full tip — not just the percentage deemed to be fit by the federal government. The author of the article (Ms. Salles) believes that all taxation is theft. I doubt anyone here would agree with this, but I'm curious about what people think of the "personal gift" tactic being employed. A tip, more formally known as a gratuity, is for all intents and purposes a gift. It's optional, and the custom was conceived as a way for customers to show gratitude for good service (hence the term "gratuity"). At the same time, the government can tax whatever it wants to, including gifts. This tactic is pretty obvious "black hat" loophole--something that may be legal but definitely not what the government intends. Hence, what say you? Is using the loophole immoral? Is not using the loophole immoral (as Ms. Salles contends)? Does it matter? Should the government tax gratuities? My mom had a great way for deducing whether or not something was yours, the alternative being- you stole it: Was it yours to begin with, or did someone willingly give it to you? If not, you stole it. I do not willingly pay my taxes. I pay my taxes because if I don't, the government will seize my assets, or put me into prison- and if I resist, they will kill me. I pay taxes for NO OTHER REASON. It is armed robbery. Poppycock! Taxes are the dues one pays in order to live in a civilized society. Paying one's taxes is nothing more than one of the responsibilities of being a good citizen.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 1, 2017 15:56:53 GMT -5
My mom had a great way for deducing whether or not something was yours, the alternative being- you stole it: Was it yours to begin with, or did someone willingly give it to you? If not, you stole it. I do not willingly pay my taxes. I pay my taxes because if I don't, the government will seize my assets, or put me into prison- and if I resist, they will kill me. I pay taxes for NO OTHER REASON. It is armed robbery. You know you are perfectly free to leave at any time. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 1, 2017 16:07:22 GMT -5
The Taxation Is Theft Meme Has Officially Gone Mainstream...
Last week, a customer at a Missouri restaurant gave the waitress a “personal gift” instead of a tip, writing the now popular line “Taxation is theft” in the tip section of the receipt.
...
But as that discussion developed, reporters were quick to realize that when personal gifts are in the mix, the taxman can’t take part of those earnings away. After all, a gift would have to exceed $13,000 to be subject to taxation, meaning that even if the customer had spent hundreds, the “personal gift” would not amount to anything close to the requirements stipulated by the IRS.
With that, ladies and gentlemen, it becomes easier to not only tip with class, but also with substance, giving your waiter a lesson on what’s moral and how to legally go around the rules to make sure they enjoy their full tip — not just the percentage deemed to be fit by the federal government. The author of the article (Ms. Salles) believes that all taxation is theft. I doubt anyone here would agree with this, but I'm curious about what people think of the "personal gift" tactic being employed. A tip, more formally known as a gratuity, is for all intents and purposes a gift. It's optional, and the custom was conceived as a way for customers to show gratitude for good service (hence the term "gratuity"). At the same time, the government can tax whatever it wants to, including gifts. This tactic is pretty obvious "black hat" loophole--something that may be legal but definitely not what the government intends. Hence, what say you? Is using the loophole immoral? Is not using the loophole immoral (as Ms. Salles contends)? Does it matter? Should the government tax gratuities? My mom had a great way for deducing whether or not something was yours, the alternative being- you stole it: Was it yours to begin with, or did someone willingly give it to you? If not, you stole it. I do not willingly pay my taxes. I pay my taxes because if I don't, the government will seize my assets, or put me into prison- and if I resist, they will kill me. I pay taxes for NO OTHER REASON. It is armed robbery. You don't like protection by the military? Driving on roads? Access to the court system for disputes? Having the police or fire dept. come when you need them? Drinking water without fecal contamination? Knowing that when you take a drug, what is in it won't kill you?
I don't like paying my taxes any more than anyone else, and I think the government is wasteful and inefficient, but that is the price of living in a civilized society.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 1, 2017 17:08:13 GMT -5
I really like the idea, I think. Most restaurants (to my knowledge) pay less than minimum wage and expect their wait staff to make up the difference in tips. That's always seemed a bit cheesy to me. Showing my appreciation for good service through a gift is an idea I wish I'd thought of before. This is very state specific. I know that it is not true in either Washington state or California. Minimum wage as of January in California is $10.50/hr. And that is the wage servers get paid. Tips, for which the expectations forever seem to creep up as a percentage of the cost of the meal, are earned on top of that. I too would much prefer to do away with the tipping system but don't see that happen any time soon, if at all. I'm glad to know it isn't the same everywhere. I know it's still that way here.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on May 1, 2017 17:19:08 GMT -5
Anyone that thinks taxation is theft is just a complete nutbag. I won't even bother listing all the various city, county, state, and federal government services our taxes pay for as those that don't believe it's theft already know and those that do believe it's theft are deranged so wouldn't pay any attention anyway.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 1, 2017 18:37:00 GMT -5
... My mom had a great way for deducing whether or not something was yours, the alternative being- you stole it: Was it yours to begin with, or did someone willingly give it to you? If not, you stole it. I do not willingly pay my taxes. I pay my taxes because if I don't, the government will seize my assets, or put me into prison- and if I resist, they will kill me. I pay taxes for NO OTHER REASON. It is armed robbery. And I have no problem with using my power, through my government, to commit armed robbery on you. Have a nice day.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 2, 2017 1:11:50 GMT -5
Oregon as well pays wait staff minimum wage which is as high as the other west coast states. Servers love out of state customers who tip the 15-20 per cent because they don't know this fact.
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spartyparty
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Post by spartyparty on May 2, 2017 4:49:02 GMT -5
"My mom had a great way for deducing whether or not something was yours, the alternative being- you stole it: Was it yours to begin with, or did someone willingly give it to you? If not, you stole it...." Mother Earth says that everything is stolen.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 2, 2017 10:58:50 GMT -5
Thanks for all the viewpoints. Sorry I wasn't here yesterday to comment. I was visiting with parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts.
I mentioned this story and we had a rousing debate on taxation. Bear in mind this was a crowd where I was the most liberal participant. My uncle's opinion differs only slightly from Paul's (and Ms. Salles') in that he believes virtually all taxation above the municipal level is theft, as well as being unconstitutional in the US by any reasonable interpretation of the US Constitution.
The lot of us agreed that our countries are far too socialist, our federal debts will never be repaid, democratic federal governments are rapidly becoming as corrupt and oppressive as the monarchies that sparked pilgrimages to the New World and fomented the American Revolution.
We had quite the discussion on Bitcoin (I believe it can be a viable currency; everyone else contended it has too many flaws).
The most energetic part of the debate was on whether our societies are on the upslope or the downslope of the Laffer curve. That is: are upper and middle-upper tax levels in Canada at a point where an increase in taxation increases government revenue or decreases it?
I played Devil's advocate and argued that we're on the upslope (mainly because I knew DJ would want me to). It was a hard sell, particularly because my uncle, mother, and father all either quit certain jobs, didn't take jobs, or didn't take advantage of certain business opportunities because the returns after taxes were too meager. My uncle left the US in part because of tax and regulation issues in AZ, where he lived for 15 years. In short, their collective personal experience supported their argument that increased taxes do discourage people from working harder. All I had to counter this was some nebulous stats in the poorly-written whitepaper DJ cited last year.
My mom also contended that our governments never fail to increase spending within a few years of raising taxes, which is regrettably true, hence she argued that "increased taxation = lower deficits" is a fallacy on that basis. I had to counter this with "hypothetically, if governments didn't do this, increased taxation would lower deficits", which everybody except my uncle agreed with, but this was hardly a victory since I acknowledge the premise of the hypothetical is false.
One final discussion point worth mentioning was engineered government dependence--the fact that governments have either deliberately or inadvertently made private-sector solutions to certain problems untenable. This refers to the phenomenon whereby one compares private sector performance to public sector performance and finds that the public sector outperforms, but doesn't account for the fact that the private sector is hamstrung ("sabotaged", if it were deliberate) by government.
As an example, the Ontario provincial government is infamous for outlawing swaths of technology and then comparing public and private where private industry is ostensibly forbidden from innovating or eluding price controls.
We never got back to the original question of whether they approved of the "personal gift" technique in the OP.
If I had to boil down the tax-related elements of the conversation to a handful of conclusions, they'd be: taxation isn't inherently theft, but taxation to the degree that Canadians are taxed is; the government should provide far fewer services than it does; people who are comfortable with the status quo or who want even more services are stupid, ignorant, blind, etc., as their viewpoint requires ignoring the obvious unsustainability and inevitable doom of systems socialized to this degree.
And of course, we were all incredibly glad to live in Canada. Our stolen tax dollars are at least being wasted on non-evil endeavours such as treating hypochondriacs and sending Quebecers' kids to all-day daycare, rather than buying RPGs and frag grenades for our police, building as many jails as we can stuff full of citizens, and bombing the crap out of the Third World for no good reason. That's something at least.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 2, 2017 11:19:33 GMT -5
You know, you really had me on the idea that you all are conservatives, until I got to this last sentence.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 2, 2017 11:57:13 GMT -5
You know, you really had me on the idea that you all are conservatives, until I got to this last sentence. We're conservatives. Fiscal and social. Not neocons. We're not hard-line libertarians. We acknowledge the utility of centralized, tax-supported government to a degree. None of us want privatized police forces, we'll happily pay taxes to have a city administration run sewers and waste disposal, we acknowledge the need for industry regulation, etc. We're split on the degree to which healthcare should be public.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 12:26:45 GMT -5
My mom had a great way for deducing whether or not something was yours, the alternative being- you stole it: Was it yours to begin with, or did someone willingly give it to you? If not, you stole it. I do not willingly pay my taxes. I pay my taxes because if I don't, the government will seize my assets, or put me into prison- and if I resist, they will kill me. I pay taxes for NO OTHER REASON. It is armed robbery. Poppycock! Taxes are the dues one pays in order to live in a civilized society. Paying one's taxes is nothing more than one of the responsibilities of being a good citizen. And yet there is an enforcement system in place........ Edit; I find "undocumented money" as the way to go.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 2, 2017 12:36:17 GMT -5
Poppycock! Taxes are the dues one pays in order to live in a civilized society. Paying one's taxes is nothing more than one of the responsibilities of being a good citizen. And yet there is an enforcement system in place........ Edit; I find "undocumented money" as the way to go. Yes, enforcement is necessary- since not all Americans are patriotic enough to simply do what is right and responsible.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 12:41:07 GMT -5
And yet there is an enforcement system in place........ Edit; I find "undocumented money" as the way to go. Yes, enforcement is necessary- since not all Americans are patriotic enough to simply do what is right and responsible. Responsibility is subjective to the level of those passing laws to collect other peoples money, and what it's used for.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on May 2, 2017 14:01:48 GMT -5
My take? I'm alarmed that anyone believes that the legal determination of what constitutes taxable income is made by what an idiot writes on a cocktail napkin.
But I'm sure this tax-hating diner was smiling to himself with pride as he swaggered out to his car, which undoubtedly had a "I Support our Troops" bumper sticker right next to the "Don't Tread on Me" one, because he doesn't understand irony.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on May 2, 2017 14:10:48 GMT -5
And drove home on a public road.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on May 2, 2017 14:10:49 GMT -5
The Taxation Is Theft Meme Has Officially Gone Mainstream...
Last week, a customer at a Missouri restaurant gave the waitress a “personal gift” instead of a tip, writing the now popular line “Taxation is theft” in the tip section of the receipt.
...
But as that discussion developed, reporters were quick to realize that when personal gifts are in the mix, the taxman can’t take part of those earnings away. After all, a gift would have to exceed $13,000 to be subject to taxation, meaning that even if the customer had spent hundreds, the “personal gift” would not amount to anything close to the requirements stipulated by the IRS.
With that, ladies and gentlemen, it becomes easier to not only tip with class, but also with substance, giving your waiter a lesson on what’s moral and how to legally go around the rules to make sure they enjoy their full tip — not just the percentage deemed to be fit by the federal government. The author of the article (Ms. Salles) believes that all taxation is theft. I doubt anyone here would agree with this, but I'm curious about what people think of the "personal gift" tactic being employed. A tip, more formally known as a gratuity, is for all intents and purposes a gift. It's optional, and the custom was conceived as a way for customers to show gratitude for good service (hence the term "gratuity"). At the same time, the government can tax whatever it wants to, including gifts. This tactic is pretty obvious "black hat" loophole--something that may be legal but definitely not what the government intends. Hence, what say you? Is using the loophole immoral? Is not using the loophole immoral (as Ms. Salles contends)? Does it matter? Should the government tax gratuities? My mom had a great way for deducing whether or not something was yours, the alternative being- you stole it: Was it yours to begin with, or did someone willingly give it to you? If not, you stole it. I do not willingly pay my taxes. I pay my taxes because if I don't, the government will seize my assets, or put me into prison- and if I resist, they will kill me. I pay taxes for NO OTHER REASON. It is armed robbery. LOL. This is ridiculous. This is like saying I don't "willingly" pay for clothes, but since the store wouldn't let me have them for free THEY STOLE MY MONEY. Also - "armed" robbery? really? The level of hyperbole never ceases to amaze me. No one is threatening to kill you for not paying taxes. Fines? sure. jail? Maybe. Bodily harm? Give me an f'ing break.
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