Academic copyediting UPDATE post 19

[debthaven]

Some of you work at universities. DH has been asked to copy edit a Masters thesis. (Well actually I was, but I thought it might be considered a conflict of interest, so DH is doing it instead.)

The thesis will be in English, about 80 pages. Although the (French) writer's spoken English is good, their written English is not that great, so it would be considered heavy copyediting, not just proofreading. (The person is then doing a PhD and has already asked me / DH to edit that too, but we'll worry about that in 3.5 years.)

I have found rates online both for the US and the UK, but I was wondering if any of you have had experience with this?

Thanks

[dee27]

This article is fairly comprehensive about rates charged.


www.wendybelcher.com/writing-advice/how-to-hire-copyeditor/

[debthaven]

Haha Dee, that's the same article I sent DH!

I'm also hoping that somebody may have personal experience with this.

ETA: I tried to post this a few min ago but my internet connection is acting up ...

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Rates I've heard from 2 editors

#1 $4/page just English/spelling/grammar/APA style
$5/page above plus writing coach

#2 $85/hour

[debthaven]

Rukh what do you mean by "$5/page above plus writing coach"? Do you mean $4 per page + $5 per page?

$85 per hour ROFLMAO!!!

[debthaven]

Sorry I need to go to bed but if you could explain the second part of your number one that would be great

Also, for info, I plan to help DH, although only he will bill her.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Mar 8, 2017 17:21:50 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Rukh what do you mean by "$5/page above plus writing coach"? Do you mean $4 per page + $5 per page?

$85 per hour ROFLMAO!!!

Hi debt,

No, the $5 includes everything, so just an extra $1/page for the more in depth commentary.

for the $85/hour - I did think that - although maybe not lmao, but pricey and an odd way to quote copy editing. Because - one could conceivable spend an entire hour on one badly writing page or two, and then it becomes very steep.

OTOH - to compare to the other one - that would be 17 pages/hour to be on par. Probably not doable if looking at minutia and big picture at once. I would think 10 pages an hour doable, then it is about 8.50/page - but no guarantees.

The other side of that is - if a page is written really poorly - there is not that much you can do as an editor without becoming a second author.....so not sure how much time could be spent as an editor per page even it the writing is super bad.

And here -- no contemplation of the second language issues. Although - a schoolmate of mine has English as a second language and used the $5 hour person. Her speaking skills were pretty good, not great, but when I read her writing - the grammar mistakes were every sentence. Multiple ones ones per sentence. Articles in particular - when and when not to use one - were always the wrong way!  But she still got the $5/page from editor #1. I don't know anyone who has used the $85/hour from #2.

I've been looking myself as I prepare to send things for journal consideration. I really wanted #1, but he has too much work to take on anything else, so I got the quote from #2, but I don't have anyone who said they used her with good reports - no bad reports, just not any at all. She does do APA and medical journal styles and if I had the money I might give her a try and see what the value is. Still considering. I have an article almost ready to go but I don't have time for finishing touches, and not too sure how best to report the statistical results in the narrative.

On the one hand, I don't have time to just look up and read articles to see how they are reporting results in the narrative. I could either go over it once more and then hand it off to this person to see what they say and see what I get for the money, It's a smallish paper, just 25 pages double spaced including refs, tables, figures. Or I could put maybe a max of 10 hours into the paper and then send it off and see what response I get from the journal.

I really super need to submit this by the time my annual department review comes around. I had said in my "goals" last time that I would send 2 papers off to journals, and I'm still puttzing on this first one.

ETA: Department review statement is submitted in May....so....not a lot of time!

[debthaven]

Thanks for the explanation! English as a second language is DEFINITELY a consideration here, I do 2-3 pp per hour.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Mar 8, 2017 16:38:40 GMT -5 dee27 said:

This article is fairly comprehensive about rates charged.


www.wendybelcher.com/writing-advice/how-to-hire-copyeditor/

Good article Dee, thank you!

I think I will reach out to editor #2, explain the scope of the paper, and see what he estimate may be. 

It says it's a small investment for my career

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Mar 9, 2017 12:20:44 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Thanks for the explanation! English as a second language is DEFINITELY a consideration here, I do 2-3 pp per hour.

that would make 85 an hour steep!

When I finished my prelim, I printed it out to do a final editing on a work trip. I got through 25 pages on a 3ish hour flight. Of course, there was much pauses and such, and not the best venue for it.

But thanks for the thread! It has got me thinking about it again.  Going to read Dee's article a little more in-depth before deciding.

[Deleted]

I think I'd ask for a couple of sample pages (even something they may have written before without professional edits) and see how long it takes me to get through them, maybe even share comments on my corrections if they want that, and figure out how long a page takes me.  That would be a good indication of whether to charge $5 or $85/page.

Another thought:  how well will DH understand the subject matter?  As an example, if I were editing a thesis on a piece of literature I could probably re-word errors easily without losing the sense of what they were trying to say.  If I were editing one on a topic in Philosophy, a subject which makes my eyes glaze over, and I found a badly-worded sentence I might have to go back to the author and have a conversation about what they were trying to say so I could re-word it correctly.  That takes more time.

[steph08]

Crap, $85/hour, I'm in the wrong profession!

I've copyedited two dissertations. One was my brother's. He has a Ph.D. in Chemistry, but writing is not his strong suit. I did not understand the subject matter at all (MRIs and rat lungs and stuff), but we worked through it together. I did it for free since he's my brother. 

Another one was for my boss at work - I can't remember what I charged her...I think $20/hour. Her paper was written better, but she still had a lot of repetitive language and didn't state her points clearly. 

Even though the rat lungs made me fall asleep sometimes, it was somewhat easier to read that one! 

[debthaven]

I think I'd ask for a couple of sample pages

As I've said, it takes me an hour to do 2-3 of her pages. DH is probably a bit faster than me.

He would understand the subject matter but I'm sure he would have to consult with her from time to time because something isn't clear.

[hoops902]

Mar 10, 2017 11:21:12 GMT -5 debthaven said:

I think I'd ask for a couple of sample pages

As I've said, it takes me an hour to do 2-3 of her pages. DH is probably a bit faster than me.

He would understand the subject matter but I'm sure he would have to consult with her from time to time because something isn't clear.

This is why the hourly rate exists.  You're not going to spend an hour doing this for $8-$12 (even if DH can go faster, it may not be much faster). 

I've done this before, back when I was doing my MBA, some PhD students I knew wanted me to proof their papers on Finance (an area I know).  I was charging $5/page I believe (I hate the per hour thing because as others have mentioned, I didn't want to get caught up in arguing about how long each page took).  They were native English speakers and it went pretty smoothly.  One of them referred me to her friend who was not a great English speaker nor was she a great writer...I turned her down stating I was too busy.  I probably would have charged something like $25/page to do it, but chose to just say no to avoid any offense/hurt feelings since she probably knew I did her friend's for $5.

To me, this seems like a good candidate to have someone less experienced just sit down and help with the written English piece first, then have someone actually edit the copy for more technical things.  Get someone who can write English properly (even if they aren't up on APA style and all that) and then have someone else come in to proof it who knows that kind of thing.  It's probably cheaper for the student to do it that way and probably less headache for the proofer who would end up rewriting the entire thing.  That was my struggle with the non-native English speaker...I read a few pages and all I could think of was to circle entire paragraphs and note that I had no idea what they were even trying to say.  Sounds like they need more of a "translator" of sorts to get it into good written English first.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Come to think of it, I know my friend with non native English used $5 page guy,but I don't know that that was the rate charged.

[debthaven]

Hoops, I agree with you that an hourly rate is much better in a situation like this.

DH doesn't like charging per hour because he says then you can't give a proper estimate... well doh lol. I will suggest that he charge per hour, but give a range, ie 25-35 hours. That might be a good compromise.

I don't think using two different people would be necessary though. It's not very "technical", so DH or I could handle that. But yes, certain sentences will need to be reworked because of language issues.

This said, both of us are used to doing that. But, it's time-consuming.

[hoops902]

Mar 10, 2017 12:35:19 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Hoops, I agree with you that an hourly rate is much better in a situation like this.

DH doesn't like charging per hour because he says then you can't give a proper estimate... well doh lol. I will suggest that he charge per hour, but give a range, ie 25-35 hours. That might be a good compromise.

I don't think using two different people would be necessary though. It's not very "technical", so DH or I could handle that. But yes, certain sentences will need to be reworked because of language issues.

This said, both of us are used to doing that. But, it's time-consuming.

I wasn't thinking you COULDN'T handle doing the rewriting part...I was more thinking it might be cheaper for the student to find some other student to help write it out in English, and then pay for the services of someone "good" to do the true copy editing (in the same way that if I were having a dinner party and needed an amazing meal...it might make sense for me to hire a great chef to cook it, but I don't need to keep the chef on the payroll all night to walk around serving the food as well...it's bad for my wallet and probably not enjoyable for the chef either).  That really lends itself more when the wording isn't technical, as pretty much anyone with a good grasp on the language could at least get it into an easily readable/editable form. I was also partially placing myself in your place and thinking I'd probably want to drown myself in the bathtub before rewriting someone's thesis into English.

If you're going to charge per hour, and give a range of hours...you might as well just give an estimate per page or for the entire thing.  If you limit the hours you'll charge for, then you're really going against the reason to go hourly (in case it takes much longer than you think).  Once you limit the hours you'll charge for, you might as well just give a price for the entire thing at max hours multiplied by the hourly rate you were thinking.  At least if you convert it to a price per page, you're protecting yourself a bit.  If you say it's going to take 25-35 hours...and it takes 35 hours to get halfway through and you're annoyed at working with them and want to quit...you're going to have issues with how much you can really charge (because you've already spent the max hours, and quitting now just looks like you're trying to take the money and run).  If you charge per page, based on the max hours/rate you were going to charge...then you can do 20 pages, realize it sucks and is making you miserable, and quit with only the money due per page.  Once you limit your hours, just charge per page...you'll all feel better about it (and no worries about arguing if you really spent that many hours...etc...it's just far less headache...goes for any job really).

[debthaven]

Hoops remember I'm in France, so it's not that easy to find someone to just put it in better English.

But you raised some really good points, so thanks.

I spoke to DH. He is going to tell her he needs to see the first 3-5 pages before he can give her a rate, and then establish a per page rate based on how long it takes him to edit those pages. She can then take it or leave it.

DH regularly does freelance translating (in addition to his day job). Part of my job is to "teach" this woman English (she's a professor at my business school, and she teaches in English, so her spoken English is excellent). I'm used to working with her. Her written English is not bad, otherwise we wouldn't consider doing this, but it's not great either ... let's say it's "awkward". As a FT professor, she's not a "typical" student.

But you're right, it needs to be paid reasonably well, or it's not worth it. DH's translation rate is $30 per page for his two regular clients, which translates to $30-$60 per hour, depending on the translation.

It makes sense to treat this the same way he treats his translations (ie determine a price per page).

 

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I proofread, edit, and improve all of DH's professional writing. I'm going to start charging him. 

[debthaven]

I just wanted to give an update on this ... in the end *I* did all the work, not DH. I teach two faculty members, and this woman is one of them.

It was a mad rush in June but I did as much as I could during the teaching hours we had left. She is allocated 32h of English lessons (ie me) per year.

I ended up doing the rest outside of school (at her request). I spent time over 72 crazy hours in early July going over the rest (at "mates' rates", ie reduced cost, because she has become a friend).

I already knew that:
- she had the best mark in her class at a very prestigious school (where she is a student)

But I found out this week that:
- her mark and research made our prestigious school (where we both teach) decide to offer her a HUGE raise (ie paying her for her 1.5 days off so she can work on her PhD.) She worked 3.5 days/week and did her MSc thesis on her own time in the other 1.5 days. Now she's paid FT and still has 1.5 days/week to work on her PhD.
- her school (where she is a student) asked for her permission to enter her Masters thesis into a nationwide competition with a monetary prize (I don't know how much) as well as being published.
- her (Irish) thesis advisor said that she had never read such a well-written thesis in all her time in academia

So, I'm very proud.

I'm also thinking this could be a really lucrative side job ... But although I'm very happy to edit, I'm not happy to translate entire pages of French, so I'm not really sure how to go about it.

ETA: Without going into detail, the subject of her Masters thesis was ... auditing! It was a great experience for both of us, because she had to learn to explain it simply enough that I understood, and then I helped her rewrite it so that anyone could understand her research (even me ). 

[Deleted]

debthaven, you remind me of the time that my then-DH decided to start his MBA.  He was taking some sort of business class, and it required a paper.  He wrote the paper, but the workers at the company he worked at went out on strike.  So they were shipping lower-level management employees like him all over the place to do their jobs.

It was the end of the semester, and all he still needed to do was turn in the paper.  But it had no conclusion, and he was working so hard that he didn't have time to write it.

So I read the paper and then wrote the conclusion for him.  It was a couple of paragraphs out of a 20-page paper.  

I was really proud when the professor awarded him an A, commenting that the conclusion was the "best" part of the paper.

It really wasn't cheating.  He did the research and wrote the paper.  I just summed it all up.

But I know the sense of pride that you are feeling.

[debthaven]

Exactly Susana! When she told me about the call to submit the paper for the nationwide competition, for a minute I nearly forgot that it wasn't even my research LOL!

ETA: She is much younger than I am ... but she was very clear about the fact that I am NOT allowed to retire until she finishes her PhD thesis. LOL! She has 3 years to do it and I'm planning to retire (but not stop working) in 4, so it should work out well.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Sounds like it all turned out great debt, and you scored a friend out of the bargain....

The resurrection of this thread is bittersweet for me. I'm still working on that paper to send out for my first try at publication.....It just never gets done. I think 10 more hours, and then after putting 25 or more into, there is still more than the 10 I thought. And then the anxiety builds about spending so much time on it (2-3 weeks) and not on my dissertation, and then while I say I'm going to stick with it till finished and sent, eventually too much time passes and I need to go back to my dissertation and take it to the next level to send to someone.

Which is pertinent to the thread as I'm nearing the second full draft and going to send it to $5/page guy - who has raised his rates to $6 page a guy. But I'm just going for the simple editing of $4/page. My goal is to send to him in 10 days.

I mention this in particular for you debt, as he has quit his day job and gone into solo consulting. Around the time that he was too busy to copyedit my prelim, I think he got to the point where he realized the work he was turning away could result in paying the bills with his side gig of copyediting, and then he hung out his shingle for a comprehensive consulting practice at the same time. 

So definitely think about growing that side biz!!!

Out of curiosity - I know you mentioned giving her the friends and family rate, but now that you've done it - what price would you put on it for a stranger?

[debthaven]

Rukh it's really hard to say ... I know her writing (since I teach her). I get paid 50e/hr to teach her at school, so I charged her 30e/hr "mates' rates". I am "at her service" ... every year she tells me what she wants to work on and I put together an individualized program for her. Last (school) year it was grammar and then her MSc thesis.

Since I'm abroad, sometimes people in France say, "I wrote it in English, it just needs a little bit of editing." Then you find out it's completely unintelligible, or that they put it through Google Translate, and it takes more time to decipher that crap than to start from scratch. English-speaking translators/editors have learned to be extremely wary of that.

All this to say, I probably wouldn't do it for someone without knowing how they write. In her case, it was 50% "medium" editing, 25% "heavy" editing, and 25% translating. That wouldn't happen in the US. And since I "teach" her, we spent several lessons with her explaining her research in great detail. So when it was time for me to edit her work it was much easier for me to understand what she meant when she was unclear.

Whoever is editing you will obviously have a much, much easier job .

To answer your question, I'd probably charge a stranger here about 15-20/page, knowing that I did 2-3 pp/hour. But that's because there's the English as a foreign language aspect, so it's not really comparable to your case.

ETA: Also, I preferred to charge per hour. Since we know and trust each other, that was not an issue. But it could definitely be an issue for a stranger.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

oh - also to note:

I took my soon-to-be journal article to a departmental writing retreat and got a faculty member to read it and give input. So that was really useful and while she said that it was definitely publishable, she suggested that I completely restructure the lit review and discussion sections - so that took my 10 hours to go to about 100.....and I likely put about 40 or so in before the ignoring-my-dissertation anxiety pulled me away.

This paper originated in a class project 3 years ago, and I had lunch recently with a fellow student from that class. She had recently submitter her research project from that class and got a revise and resubmit determination, with one note being a lack of current research in the field. I think the prof from that (who has was an industry-centered adjunct that only taught on the side and has since retired) wasn't changing his reading list the last decade or so and we were not in the most current literature to draw from - even though it was about 150-200 pages of research article to read every week! So I've also pulled about 5 current articles to try to incorporate into my.....so clocking that at another 50 hours there.....

so - from my reported about 10 hours in march on this thread, I'm up to about 110 hours of input to get it ready to send....60 let from the restructuring plus 50 to update literature....

I was planning on taking the weekend off, but now my anxiety about all this makes me think I should go into the office and put a good 5-6 hours into writing.....

[debthaven]

E also had to redo her lit review and add more current articles, so I think that may be more common than you think.

Why do you need to go into the office to write? Why can't you write at home?

ETA: E also has more free time than you ... she works 70%, with 1 day/week free for school (classes in Sem 1, thesis in Sem 2), and a half-day/week off for her (youngish) kids. Her job is also less demanding than yours, and involves little travel. So don't beat yourself up ... I think at some point you have to just decide the article is ready/done and send it.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Oct 7, 2017 10:24:40 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Rukh it's really hard to say ... I know her writing (since I teach her). I get paid 50e/hr to teach her at school, so I charged her 30e/hr "mates' rates". I am "at her service" ... every year she tells me what she wants to work on and I put together an individualized program for her. Last (school) year it was grammar and then her MSc thesis.

Since I'm abroad, sometimes people in France say, "I wrote it in English, it just needs a little bit of editing." Then you find out it's completely unintelligible, or that they put it through Google Translate, and it takes more time to decipher that crap than to start from scratch.

All this to say, I probably wouldn't do it for someone without knowing how they write. In her case, it was 50% "medium" editing, 25% "heavy" editing, and 25% translating. That wouldn't happen in the US. And since I "teach" her, we spent several lessons with her explaining her research in great detail. So when it was time for me to edit her work it was much easier for me to understand what she meant when she was unclear.

Whoever is editing you will obviously have a much, much easier job .

To answer your question, I'd probably charge a stranger here about 15-20/page, knowing that I did 2-3 pp/hour. But that's because there's the English as a foreign language aspect, so it's not really comparable to your case.

ETA: Also, I preferred to charge per hour. Since we know and trust each other, that was not an issue. But it could definitely be an issue for a stranger.

I get about $59/hours and $18-24/page. So definitely my two potential editors are reasonable in comparison!  

I would still like to give $85/hour woman a try some time. I have a second article in my head that I will target a medical journal with, and so it will be shorter and to the point and she had med journal experience.

It's really difficult to understand the potential value of a particular editor before seeing their work, so would be good to try her out on a short (12-15 page) project.

my first article, after getting *free* input from a very well published (with many grants) professor, I will send out without going through a copyeditor (even though post-review I'm essentially rewriting most of it). 

If I get rejected or revise and resubmit (depending on what comments are made), I may change my tune.

[debthaven]

I also think it depends a lot on how well someone writes ... from what I have seen here (and on your CV) you write very well.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Oct 7, 2017 10:33:20 GMT -5 debthaven said:

E also had to redo her lit review and add more current articles, so I think that may be more common than you think.

Why do you need to go into the office to write? Why can't you write at home?

ETA: E also has more free time than you ... she works 70%, with 1 day/week free for school (classes in Sem 1, thesis in Sem 2), and a half-day/week off for her (youngish) kids. Her job is also less demanding than yours, and involves little travel. So don't beat yourself up ... I think at some point you have to just decide the article is ready/done and send it.

When I want to get a lot done, I go into the office on Saturdays. Its quiet, I don't get distracted by chores, people, pets, etc. and then I when I leave I'm done. I tend to be hyper focused, don't go on the internet, and get more done in 6 hours there than working the entire day (12 hours) at home. 

Also - I do most of my writing there. Stay an hour or two late most days to do it. All my articles are there, books, etc.

I will consider while taking the dog for the walk......

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Oct 7, 2017 10:43:08 GMT -5 debthaven said:

I also think it depends a lot on how well someone writes ... from what I have seen here (and on your CV) you write very well.

Thanks!

I feel I have improved greatly the past year or two. Constantly writing and revising. I've been working on my dissertation hard core (for someone with a FT+ job) for 18 months now. The writing seminar the department held was fantastic, and they had a lot of interesting tools to discuss - none of which I plan to try, but interesting.

One thing was an online writing thing where you had to complete x # of words within x# of minutes or it wiped everything you wrote - permanently deleted! Not something I want to play around with. 

I'm going to a seminar next week on how to use mendeley (a reference manager) effectively. I am good at producing, but not organizing all my stuff. There are just mounds of paper everywhere, and I have pdfs of it all, and frequently cannot find either the paper or electronic copy of the article I want.....so that will help out.

Making lunch and heading in to do about 5 hours. Getting late for much more. I will also try to organize some tasks for myself to do 3-4 hours tomorrow and make sure I have all those materials at home (can't get into work building on Sun). Once that anxiety of "not doing it" starts, there is no escape, lol. my whole weekend will be spent in guilt and anxiety if I don't.