And after a week, we are still without a furnace

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Above is the section that I think is driving the HVAC companies to only use the tables. If TD has his stamp, have him draw up his design of the system he wants to use. As the Engineer of Record, he is responsible for the system at that point. Also, have him check on what the Federal requirements are for the efficiency rating for your area.

We've been getting quotes for 80% efficiency, so I'm assuming that that is what the local Federal requirements are.  Logically, it does not make financial sense to pay more for a 95% efficiency, when we use so little gas to start with.

[engineerdoe]

Jan 25, 2017 15:03:08 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Above is the section that I think is driving the HVAC companies to only use the tables. If TD has his stamp, have him draw up his design of the system he wants to use. As the Engineer of Record, he is responsible for the system at that point. Also, have him check on what the Federal requirements are for the efficiency rating for your area.

We've been getting quotes for 80% efficiency, so I'm assuming that that is what the local Federal requirements are.  Logically, it does not make financial sense to pay more for a 95% efficiency, when we use so little gas to start with.

The only time I deal with HVAC is with the weight of the equipment or them trying to run a duct through my structural member so I'm not sure of all the requirements regarding efficiency.  I do know that the 2015 Washington Energy Code is making headaches for everybody with what they are requiring.  One thing you also need to consider is if the county you are in has any other special requirements and sometimes the individual city will have others on top of that. (i.e. King County, City of Seattle)

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Ok, where can I get an ACCA manual J to determine heat load calculations without paying Amazon $129+?

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Jan 26, 2017 10:07:42 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Ok, where can I get an ACCA manual J to determine heat load calculations without paying Amazon $129+?

[br

Will your local building commissioner allow you to look at his/hers? Our town's building department has a small seating area for just that type of reference reading.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Yay!

It looks like we have a company that will sell us what we want.  Good furnace, less BTUs and installed less $$.

Now we just need to not have any major temp drops by the end of next week.  We can handle these temps with only the fireplace.

[debthaven]

Great news!

I'm curious, why do you think they accepted when the others all refused?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 27, 2017 19:07:53 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Great news!

I'm curious, why do you think they accepted when the others all refused?

I'm guessing that TD was able to convince him.  This was the only estimator that TD was home while he was here.  I was here with the others and I'm guessing that they thought that I didn't know anything so could oversell.  While I admit this is new to me and I have learned more than I wanted to know, I am not near as well versed as TD is in the ins and outs of furnaces.

[tskeeter]

Jan 28, 2017 13:51:32 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jan 27, 2017 19:07:53 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Great news!

I'm curious, why do you think they accepted when the others all refused?

I'm guessing that TD was able to convince him.  This was the only estimator that TD was home while he was here.  I was here with the others and I'm guessing that they thought that I didn't know anything so could oversell.  While I admit this is new to me and I have learned more than I wanted to know, I am not near as well versed as TD is in the ins and outs of furnaces.

Mich, read an article just the other day.  The HVAC contractor being interviewed  stated the standard industry practice was to double the estimated capacity of the equipment required, in order to avoid inadequate supply of heat complaints during the very coldest weather.  Sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it?

[OldCoyote]

What is the cost difference between the estimates?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 29, 2017 10:03:46 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

What is the cost difference between the estimates?

Not a lot.  But the point is that the oversized furnace is leaving the house with huge pockets of underheated areas.  Because so much heat is getting blown out by the larger furnace, it cuts off before the heat has a chance to disperse.  The last estimator we had in acknowledged that this is an issue.

So we are looking more for our comfort than cost.

[OldCoyote]

Heat is not a real problem here in AZ,  I did oversize my AC heat pump, with no problem,

If I want, I can almost put frost on the windows.

I did buy and install myself, I don't any problems with hot or cold pockets.

The main reason that I oversized is, I plan on building on to the house and did not to up size the AC then.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Here is the email TD got with the estimate this morning.  Deposit made, just need to get on their schedule.


I hope this finds you well, it was a pleasure meeting and visiting with you, I appreciate your knowledge of furnaces and BTU’s as most customers are not educated in those areas. It is nice to go into a customer’s home when they already have a good idea of what equipment they would like and is actually the correct equipment for the home and existing ductwork. With that said I have attached the proposal.

[debthaven]

Sounds like this guy's a keeper!

[Anne_in_VA]

Yay!  Glad you guys could get someone to quote what you wanted!

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

YAY!  We finally have a warm house!

Not only that, the guest rooms downstairs do not need the space heaters that we had offered to guests so they wouldn't freeze their asses off down there.  It is actually livable down there.

All due to needing a SMALLER furnace, not a larger one!

[zibazinski]

Feb 3, 2017 21:48:10 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

YAY!  We finally have a warm house!

Not only that, the guest rooms downstairs do not need the space heaters that we had offered to guests so they wouldn't freeze their asses off down there.  It is actually livable down there.

All due to needing a SMALLER furnace, not a larger one!

That is so weird but awesome.

[NastyWoman]

Feb 3, 2017 21:48:10 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

YAY!  We finally have a warm house!

Not only that, the guest rooms downstairs do not need the space heaters that we had offered to guests so they wouldn't freeze their asses off down there.  It is actually livable down there.

All due to needing a SMALLER furnace, not a larger one!

Congrats, that was JIT. I just flew back from SeaTac and got delayed for over an hour due to snow/de-icing. With more of that white stuff expected tomorrow 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Yeah.....I'm looking at about 5" of the white stuff and it is still coming down.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 24, 2017 11:53:42 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I should also subtitle this "don't argue with an engineer who does heat transfer calculations for a living in refineries".

Furnace is dead and we have had 3 firms in here to put in their 0.02 (aka, give estimates).  However, they all want to put in the same size furnace - which to them is done by reading where we live on a map, and cross check this with the size of the house on a chart.  However, TD has done the calculations and has determined that a furnace half the size of what they want to put in would be more than sufficient (about 4x vs 10x) to heat the house. He determined this by calculating how much gas we use at the coldest time of the year and even at the coldest time of the year, we are only using the furnace about 5% of the time, and this is with a furnace which is while it's the same size as the HVAC companies want to put in, it's 26 years old and not near as efficient as a new furnace.  So putting in a new furnace of the same size, it would be on even less.

The thing is, if you have a furnace too large for the house, you get cold pockets in the house and we definitely got those with the old furnace.  TD has been on HVAC professional groups and asked them if his heat calculations are correct....they are.  He was told that it is SOP to oversize furnaces, but when an over sized furnace does not warm the whole house evenly, how is this good?  Before the furnace went off, the master bed and bath got frigid because the heat did not reach there before the furnace turned off as the rest of the house was at temp.  While the bedroom isn't so bad - taking a shower in a cold bathroom sucks.

Luckily, the fireplace does a pretty good job of heating the upstairs (even though it's output is only 1/10 of what the furnace is in BTUs), so it's not horribly cold in here.  Also, the temps have been in the 40s rather than 20s of Dec.  

He has walked the estimator through his calculations and the estimator is stonewalling him now.  TD wants a quote for a furnace of about half the size they quoted him, and he can't get it.  At first, I was of the opinion of 'just get what they want us to get', but after him walking me through the math and reading some of the comments from HVAC professionals, I understand why he is so adamant.  Why should we pay more for a furnace that is way in excess of what we need, and is to the detriment of OUR comfort?

ETA:  With the furnace, the thermostat is set for 58° at night, 65° during the day.  Without the furnace and heating with just the fireplace from the time we get up until we go to bed, the house drops to about 60° at night, but gets up to around 67° by the evening.

Have you considered buying the furnace yourself and having it delivered and THEN calling a licensed contractor to install it? Ends debate.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Ah, I see you got this resolved. Good.

Contractors are idiots.