|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 24, 2017 11:53:42 GMT -5
I should also subtitle this "don't argue with an engineer who does heat transfer calculations for a living in refineries".
Furnace is dead and we have had 3 firms in here to put in their 0.02 (aka, give estimates). However, they all want to put in the same size furnace - which to them is done by reading where we live on a map, and cross check this with the size of the house on a chart. However, TD has done the calculations and has determined that a furnace half the size of what they want to put in would be more than sufficient (about 4x vs 10x) to heat the house. He determined this by calculating how much gas we use at the coldest time of the year and even at the coldest time of the year, we are only using the furnace about 5% of the time, and this is with a furnace which is while it's the same size as the HVAC companies want to put in, it's 26 years old and not near as efficient as a new furnace. So putting in a new furnace of the same size, it would be on even less.
The thing is, if you have a furnace too large for the house, you get cold pockets in the house and we definitely got those with the old furnace. TD has been on HVAC professional groups and asked them if his heat calculations are correct....they are. He was told that it is SOP to oversize furnaces, but when an over sized furnace does not warm the whole house evenly, how is this good? Before the furnace went off, the master bed and bath got frigid because the heat did not reach there before the furnace turned off as the rest of the house was at temp. While the bedroom isn't so bad - taking a shower in a cold bathroom sucks.
Luckily, the fireplace does a pretty good job of heating the upstairs (even though it's output is only 1/10 of what the furnace is in BTUs), so it's not horribly cold in here. Also, the temps have been in the 40s rather than 20s of Dec.
He has walked the estimator through his calculations and the estimator is stonewalling him now. TD wants a quote for a furnace of about half the size they quoted him, and he can't get it. At first, I was of the opinion of 'just get what they want us to get', but after him walking me through the math and reading some of the comments from HVAC professionals, I understand why he is so adamant. Why should we pay more for a furnace that is way in excess of what we need, and is to the detriment of OUR comfort?
ETA: With the furnace, the thermostat is set for 58° at night, 65° during the day. Without the furnace and heating with just the fireplace from the time we get up until we go to bed, the house drops to about 60° at night, but gets up to around 67° by the evening.
|
|
wvugurl26
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 15:25:30 GMT -5
Posts: 21,731
|
Post by wvugurl26 on Jan 24, 2017 12:17:55 GMT -5
Can he sign something that he picked it against their recommendation? It's absurd though. I guess they don't like making money.
|
|
alabamagal
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 11:30:29 GMT -5
Posts: 8,121
|
Post by alabamagal on Jan 24, 2017 12:19:45 GMT -5
You are doing it right. BTW, the reason they oversize isn't really for money. it should only be a couple hundred bucks difference. They do it so they NEVER get a call back that you sold them a furnace that won't keep the house warm. the problem is, at every calculation they fudge it "up" for "just in case" so you end up much larger than you need and get uneven heat and short cycling. If it was a homosexual (forced air gas) furnace, i'd just replace myself before dealing with these jokers anymore. they're under $1,000 all day long (this one is $500) www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453067314 here's one. you can spend more on a two speed fan and two setting burner for more even heating. I picked an 80% unit so you won't have to redo your exhaust and makeup air. you'd also have to do some basic ductwork, but this should take less than a day to do if you find one that's the right airflow direction and then do a little plenum repair (not very hard, just kind of sucky for a hour or two) I hope the bolded is autocorrect gone bad........ And as an engineer also, I understand the frustration......
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 24, 2017 12:30:07 GMT -5
BTW, the reason they oversize isn't really for money. it should only be a couple hundred bucks difference. They do it so they NEVER get a call back that you sold them a furnace that won't keep the house warm. the problem is, at every calculation they fudge it "up" for "just in case" so you end up much larger than you need and get uneven heat and short cycling.I can see that from the site you sent me to. TD wants a quote for a 60,000/80% efficiency furnace and they insist on giving us a quote for a 100,000 BTU/80%. When he emailed back, I strongly suggested that he tell them that the 100,000 BTU furnace we currently have leaves cold pockets in the house because it is so over sized. He ignored me on this one though.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 24, 2017 12:43:07 GMT -5
Autocorrect does some really funny things!
I was trying to put in a code for an Amazon gift card and didn't bother to check before I hit 'submit'. I think my code turned into NEW AGE HAIR.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jan 24, 2017 13:15:09 GMT -5
BTW, the reason they oversize isn't really for money. it should only be a couple hundred bucks difference. They do it so they NEVER get a call back that you sold them a furnace that won't keep the house warm. the problem is, at every calculation they fudge it "up" for "just in case" so you end up much larger than you need and get uneven heat and short cycling.I can see that from the site you sent me to. TD wants a quote for a 60,000/80% efficiency furnace and they insist on giving us a quote for a 100,000 BTU/80%. When he emailed back, I strongly suggested that he tell them that the 100,000 BTU furnace we currently have leaves cold pockets in the house because it is so over sized. He ignored me on this one though. It doesn't matter, if you say you get cold pockets, they're just going to suggest a multi-zone system rather than a smaller furnace.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 24, 2017 13:42:18 GMT -5
BTW, the reason they oversize isn't really for money. it should only be a couple hundred bucks difference. They do it so they NEVER get a call back that you sold them a furnace that won't keep the house warm. the problem is, at every calculation they fudge it "up" for "just in case" so you end up much larger than you need and get uneven heat and short cycling.I can see that from the site you sent me to. TD wants a quote for a 60,000/80% efficiency furnace and they insist on giving us a quote for a 100,000 BTU/80%. When he emailed back, I strongly suggested that he tell them that the 100,000 BTU furnace we currently have leaves cold pockets in the house because it is so over sized. He ignored me on this one though. It doesn't matter, if you say you get cold pockets, they're just going to suggest a multi-zone system rather than a smaller furnace. The problem with this is that we don't need a multi-zone (presumably more expensive) furnace when a properly sized one will solve the same problem. For the area of the country we live in (PNW) we rarely get extremely cold weather, or extremely warm weather.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,869
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 24, 2017 13:45:18 GMT -5
I'm laughing over the homosexual furnace!!!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 7:27:08 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 14:09:04 GMT -5
I went through this 2 years ago with a 1908 house. Definitely get the smaller furnace and get the 2-stage with the ECM motor. - Both my quotes wanted to downsize me, I was against that because the furnace ran 100% some nights when we got peak cold days. After research and the comment from the contractor I selected, my ducts were undersized, which meant the larger furnace was actually overheating (really just heating the unfinished basement). After his check of my utilities he was worried about downsizing, but I said I was fine after finding a Canada sizing calculation based off actual utility usage (happened to be a peak year we just came out of therm wise).
- The 2 stage furnace is great and got rid of all the cold/drafty issues in the old house. It runs 60% or more of the time, but just on low fire. Utility bills went down due to the more efficient ECM motor and gas usage being less as I could adjust room dampers to keep house better overall. It kicks up to full fire only on those really bad days.
- Tell them you are writing the check and won't select them if they refuse to quote the furnace you want.
|
|
GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
Senior Associate
"How you win matters." Ender, Ender's Game
Joined: Jan 2, 2011 13:33:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,291
|
Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jan 24, 2017 14:13:39 GMT -5
Call a 4th company and specifically ask for a quote on the size and output you want (NOT a wide open general estimate as you appear to have been seeking). Be precise that you only want a quote for this specific furnace.
And LOL at sexually active furnaces: that's hot. ;-)
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 24, 2017 14:37:02 GMT -5
C all a 4th company and specifically ask for a quote on the size and output you want (NOT a wide open general estimate as you appear to have been seeking). Be precise that you only want a quote for this specific furnace. And LOL at sexually active furnaces: that's hot. ;-) That's what's happening now.
|
|
dannylion
Junior Associate
Gravity is a harsh mistress
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 12:17:52 GMT -5
Posts: 5,197
Location: Miles over the madness horizon and accelerating
|
Post by dannylion on Jan 24, 2017 17:26:42 GMT -5
I hope the bolded is autocorrect gone bad........ And as an engineer also, I understand the frustration...... OMG, that's kind of hilarious. I wrote the acronym for Forced Air Gas and this is what it autocorrected to! I have no preference WRT to my heating devices sexual preferences. Honestly, I don't care what type of furnace my furnace wants to get busy with
We are rarely offered the opportunity to receive information and hilarity in the same post. Well done!
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,649
|
Post by chiver78 on Jan 24, 2017 18:23:37 GMT -5
gotta love the PB censors. Mich, sorry you guys are dealing with this. hopefully this 4th company can quote what you actually need. I had to chuckle at your subtitle, as I remember fighting with Verizon when they were submitting proposals to come wire my old complex for FIOS. I was on the board at the time. my subtitle was more like "Don't argue with the engineer who deals with wiring diagrams for a living when she's calling bullshit on your 'typical' installation proposal"
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 24, 2017 18:34:30 GMT -5
Well, the company we most likely would go with would flat out refused to give a quote for a 60,000 BTU furnace.
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,649
|
Post by chiver78 on Jan 24, 2017 18:37:24 GMT -5
did they give a reason why? wow!
|
|
beergut
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 11, 2011 13:58:39 GMT -5
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by beergut on Jan 24, 2017 20:42:38 GMT -5
You are doing it right. BTW, the reason they oversize isn't really for money. it should only be a couple hundred bucks difference. They do it so they NEVER get a call back that you sold them a furnace that won't keep the house warm. the problem is, at every calculation they fudge it "up" for "just in case" so you end up much larger than you need and get uneven heat and short cycling. If it was a homosexual (forced air gas) furnace, i'd just replace myself before dealing with these jokers anymore. they're under $1,000 all day long (this one is $500) www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453067314 here's one. you can spend more on a two speed fan and two setting burner for more even heating. I picked an 80% unit so you won't have to redo your exhaust and makeup air. you'd also have to do some basic ductwork, but this should take less than a day to do if you find one that's the right airflow direction and then do a little plenum repair (not very hard, just kind of sucky for a hour or two) I actually read this twice, then figured what the acronym for 'forced air gas' was, and realized maybe the acronym is the technical term, and you didn't want to write an acronym people would consider a slur, so you wrote the proper term. It never occurred to me that this was an auto-correct!
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 24, 2017 20:48:34 GMT -5
did they give a reason why? wow! Don't know. TD just texted me that they refused to give a quote for the smaller furnace, no explanation.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,869
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 24, 2017 21:28:42 GMT -5
😣
|
|
wvugurl26
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 15:25:30 GMT -5
Posts: 21,731
|
Post by wvugurl26 on Jan 24, 2017 21:32:02 GMT -5
I don't get why it's so hard get people to provide a service or product and take your money. Customer service is awful these days.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jan 25, 2017 9:12:41 GMT -5
I don't get why it's so hard get people to provide a service or product and take your money. Customer service is awful these days. Because for every 1 person who knows why they want a smaller furnace and has a good reason for it, there are 100 other people who think they know what they need and when you give it to them they're going to turn around and complain/sue because the furnace isn't big enough for their home.
Also for people calling and asking for a specific quote on a specific size...even if you visit them and point out that they need a bigger size because they absolutely do, they're going to complain that you "changed prices" on them.
In short, the potential of having the transaction go well is far outweighed by the potential for having the transaction go terribly (and in today's world of online reviews, having a transaction go terribly hurts a business a lot). It's not worth the potential headache for one sale when most of your sales don't have this additional risk associated with it. Even if a particular customer in this case is fine...they're the 1/100, and do you trust that you can pick the needle out of the haystack? Or do you just avoid this entire population altogether?
|
|
wvugurl26
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 15:25:30 GMT -5
Posts: 21,731
|
Post by wvugurl26 on Jan 25, 2017 9:48:42 GMT -5
I don't get why it's so hard get people to provide a service or product and take your money. Customer service is awful these days. Because for every 1 person who knows why they want a smaller furnace and has a good reason for it, there are 100 other people who think they know what they need and when you give it to them they're going to turn around and complain/sue because the furnace isn't big enough for their home.
Also for people calling and asking for a specific quote on a specific size...even if you visit them and point out that they need a bigger size because they absolutely do, they're going to complain that you "changed prices" on them.
In short, the potential of having the transaction go well is far outweighed by the potential for having the transaction go terribly (and in today's world of online reviews, having a transaction go terribly hurts a business a lot). It's not worth the potential headache for one sale when most of your sales don't have this additional risk associated with it. Even if a particular customer in this case is fine...they're the 1/100, and do you trust that you can pick the needle out of the haystack? Or do you just avoid this entire population altogether?
That's why I suggested having them sign a waiver of sorts. I get everyone is sue happy and not everyone is as knowledgeable or has done their research like he has.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 39,794
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Jan 25, 2017 10:00:22 GMT -5
did they give a reason why? wow! Don't know. TD just texted me that they refused to give a quote for the smaller furnace, no explanation. Probably perceived liability. I think WVU's suggestion is on point. If they won't give the quote, call others and say upfront that you know its smaller than regular requirements, you will sign a waiver, yada yada. My former next door neighbors built their home and the guy insulated it to amazing effectiveness. They had meter readers over a lot in the early years because they couldn't believe they needed so little gas to heat their home.
Good luck. How are you surviving without a furnace in winter? (Just read the last few posts FWIW...)
|
|
Bonny
Junior Associate
Joined: Nov 17, 2013 10:54:37 GMT -5
Posts: 7,438
Location: No Place Like Home!
|
Post by Bonny on Jan 25, 2017 11:07:12 GMT -5
We are rarely offered the opportunity to receive information and hilarity in the same post. Well done!
well, at least I can accidently create humor! Well you could write FA/G but that would be no fun!
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 25, 2017 11:47:51 GMT -5
The company has no interest in giving us what we want, it was very clear in the email TD got yesterday. A waiver would not be sufficient. With the fireplace going, and an electric heater going in the bathroom, it hasn't been too bad. Outside temps the last few days have been 30-38 deg. and the house is around 66 deg.
About 5 years ago, TD had someone come in and put a blower motor in the fireplace. As the entire upstairs is really just one big room other than the master bedroom, it does a decent job of heating our living space. The downstairs guest bedrooms are pretty chilly now, I suspect the temps down there are low 50s.
We have another firm to come by tomorrow and give us an estimate. Fingers crossed that they are willing to give us what we want.
ETA: Opti... TD calculated how much furnace we need by the amount of gas we use per the gas company, so backward from the way your neighbors did. The builder lived in this house before TD bought it and it is apparent he did not skimp on things like insulation or windows and doors.
|
|
debthaven
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 7, 2015 15:26:39 GMT -5
Posts: 10,379
|
Post by debthaven on Jan 25, 2017 11:50:04 GMT -5
Does TD have anyone at work who can do this as a side job?
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 25, 2017 12:02:36 GMT -5
I don't get why it's so hard get people to provide a service or product and take your money. Customer service is awful these days. Because for every 1 person who knows why they want a smaller furnace and has a good reason for it, there are 100 other people who think they know what they need and when you give it to them they're going to turn around and complain/sue because the furnace isn't big enough for their home.
Also for people calling and asking for a specific quote on a specific size...even if you visit them and point out that they need a bigger size because they absolutely do, they're going to complain that you "changed prices" on them.
In short, the potential of having the transaction go well is far outweighed by the potential for having the transaction go terribly (and in today's world of online reviews, having a transaction go terribly hurts a business a lot). It's not worth the potential headache for one sale when most of your sales don't have this additional risk associated with it. Even if a particular customer in this case is fine...they're the 1/100, and do you trust that you can pick the needle out of the haystack? Or do you just avoid this entire population altogether?
Hoops.....this is the scary part. TD walked the estimator through his heat transfer calculations (they aren't that hard) to try to explain why this furnace is so horribly oversized, and why we want a smaller one. But the estimator didn't understand them. I doubt that it was a matter of having the transaction going horribly, but the company admitting that they oversize all furnaces because it is easier to read the numbers off the chart vs actually calculate how much furnace a house needs. Yesterday, I had lunch with my neighbor. Her house was built about 10 years ago, and her basement is as cold as our's. Her heating bills are very low as well. Turns out, her furnace is about 110,000 BTUs, so also way oversized. Both houses about the same size, and both are built into a hill, where half of the lower level is not exposed to ambient air.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 25, 2017 12:03:31 GMT -5
Does TD have anyone at work who can do this as a side job? Nope.
|
|
engineerdoe
Established Member
Joined: May 22, 2013 17:10:26 GMT -5
Posts: 497
|
Post by engineerdoe on Jan 25, 2017 13:20:14 GMT -5
Does TD have anyone at work who can do this as a side job? Nope. I suspect that it is the 2015 Washington State Energy Code that is forcing this oversize, which is odd since it is supposed to push for more efficient systems. I found a pdf of the part that is just for residential if you would like me to send it to you. While some HVAC companies have engineers in the office most of the time you are dealing with the salesman or installer and it can vary on how much they know about the theory behind those tables.
|
|
engineerdoe
Established Member
Joined: May 22, 2013 17:10:26 GMT -5
Posts: 497
|
Post by engineerdoe on Jan 25, 2017 13:28:41 GMT -5
"R403.7 Equipment sizing and efficiency rating (Mandatory). Heating and cooling equipment shall be sized in accordance with ACCA Manual S based on building loads calculated in accordance with ACCA Manual J or other approved heating and cooling calculation methodologies. The output capacity of heating and cooling equipment shall not be greater than that of the smallest available equipment size that exceeds the loads calculated, including allowable oversizing limits. New or replacement heating and cooling equipment shall have an efficiency rating equal to or greater than the minimum required by federal law for the geographic location where the equipment is installed." 2015, Washington State Energy Code, Residential
Above is the section that I think is driving the HVAC companies to only use the tables. If TD has his stamp, have him draw up his design of the system he wants to use. As the Engineer of Record, he is responsible for the system at that point. Also, have him check on what the Federal requirements are for the efficiency rating for your area.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 25, 2017 13:51:35 GMT -5
"R403.7 Equipment sizing and efficiency rating (Mandatory). Heating and cooling equipment shall be sized in accordance with ACCA Manual S based on building loads calculated in accordance with ACCA Manual J or other approved heating and cooling calculation methodologies. The output capacity of heating and cooling equipment shall not be greater than that of the smallest available equipment size that exceeds the loads calculated, including allowable oversizing limits. New or replacement heating and cooling equipment shall have an efficiency rating equal to or greater than the minimum required by federal law for the geographic location where the equipment is installed." 2015, Washington State Energy Code, Residential Above is the section that I think is driving the HVAC companies to only use the tables. If TD has his stamp, have him draw up his design of the system he wants to use. As the Engineer of Record, he is responsible for the system at that point. Also, have him check on what the Federal requirements are for the efficiency rating for your area. Unfortunately, TD does not have a stamp. I wonder if he has a friend who could do this for him.....
|
|