Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 8, 2016 9:51:05 GMT -5
Saw a meme on my fb feed today showing a 70 something year old man serving a life sentence for growing three pot plants with Brock Turner and his sentence below. SMDH I saw that meme yesterday. I cannot address the older man's conviction for growing the pot plants but I looked up his name and Wiki has an entry for him. If I remember the Wiki entry correctly, the guy was previously convicted of armed robbery from multiple locations in Florida in 2009 (?). Based upon Alabama law, the armed robbery conviction and the pot conviction resulted in him getting him the life sentence. A combination of certain types of felony convictions got him that heavy sentence.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 8, 2016 9:56:25 GMT -5
If you leave your purse in the cart at the grocery store by mistake, and someone takes your wallet, are you to blame for the crime? No. But do you think to yourself, that was stupid of me to leave it there. I am going to be more careful about my purse in the future, because even though they caught the purse snatching criminal it was a major pain in the ass to deal with it and I don't want it to happen to me again. That the victim was drunk and passed out is being used to say that his crime was not that serious and he shouldn't have to register as a sex offender. The implied message is that if she had been a good responsible lady she wouldn't have been attacked, therefore it's HER fault. He couldn't help himself. It plays into the underlying gender bias that a woman's chastity is her most valuable asset and she needs to protect it from men who simply cannot help themselves. If we are harmed sexually by a man it is because we did something to deserve it. If the guy that stole your wallet gets caught they don't say "Well thieves will be thieves you know. Maybe that guy shouldn't have been so stupid as to leave his wallet in the car".
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 8, 2016 9:57:19 GMT -5
Just cause I'm feeling funky tonight... What if instead this was a case of a drunken teen driver who hit another car/pedestrian and killed someone (or maimed them?)? It seems in most of the published cases the "white privilege" teens who kill/maim other people don't get prison time. And future employability never seems to come up. Perhaps this strange twist of justice is why the guy will be appealing. www.madd.org/laws/law-overview/Vehicular_Homicide_Overview.pdfThis by no means indicate that I think this guy has received too harsh a punishment. Let's not forget if the two passers bye had not 'seen something and said something' this guy would be walking free and clear and perhaps even proudly sharing the story of his 'special' experience with his friends. While the woman would be left to wonder what happened... I think this is the tip of an iceberg. I bet there are plenty of guys reading/watching this and thanking their lucky stars there was no one around when they had their '20 minutes of action'. I doubt fear of the law will stop this from happening. I totally agree with tiny's points. Is this worse than vehicular homicide? No way. We are not allowed to blame the victim, but if the victim is so wasted they do not remember it, that is a big problem. I have both daughters and sons, and I give them a similar message. If you put yourself in a bad situation, bad things can happen. If a young man is walking down the street at 2am in a bad part of town with money hanging out of his wallet and gets robbed, we don't say he deserved it, but we say "boy that was stupid of him". So if a girl gets so drunk and gets assaulted, we shouldn't blame her for the crime, but we should say "boy that was stupid of her". I tell all my kids to avoid putting themselves in bad situations, drinking so much that they do stupid things, which would include making one stupid decision like getting behind the wheel when they are not supposed to. Don't do anything stupid, or don't let something stupid happen to you. And BTW I will freely admit to my kids that when I was in college, there were times that drank enough to not remember what happened. Nothing bad ever happened that I know of. This wasn't a case of her being drunk and not remembering the next morning. She was unconscious. The men that recused her stopped because she wasn't moving. She was unconscious when the police showed up. It took her hours to awake. It's the same as if a coconut fell from the tree and knocked her the fuck out. An unconscious person cannot give consent because they're freaking unconscious! Her being passed out because of alcohol is a red herring of them trying to put some of the culpability on her. And fwiw I've been to frat parties and their goal is to make drinks that are potent without the taste. Seriously the one I knew had three different liquors at 151 proof that you couldn't taste the alcohol. Many a girl went from zero to wasted off one glass but didn't start feeling anything until after the glass was done.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 8, 2016 9:58:50 GMT -5
Saw a meme on my fb feed today showing a 70 something year old man serving a life sentence for growing three pot plants with Brock Turner and his sentence below. SMDH I saw that meme yesterday. I cannot address the older man's conviction for growing the pot plants but I looked up his name and Wiki has an entry for him. If I remember the Wiki entry correctly, the guy was previously convicted of armed robbery from multiple locations in Florida in 2009 (?). Based upon Alabama law, the armed robbery conviction and the pot conviction resulted in him getting him the life sentence. A combination of certain types of felony convictions got him that heavy sentence. Yea, I figured there was more to it and they might not have picked the right guy. But there's a lot of people serving longer sentences then this guy for non violent crimes. Ridiculous.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jun 8, 2016 10:01:50 GMT -5
If you leave your purse in the cart at the grocery store by mistake, and someone takes your wallet, are you to blame for the crime? No. But do you think to yourself, that was stupid of me to leave it there. I am going to be more careful about my purse in the future, because even though they caught the purse snatching criminal it was a major pain in the ass to deal with it and I don't want it to happen to me again. Yes, you should avoid putting yourself in situations that will make you the victim of crimes. Don't be stupid. That is not blaming the victim, you still blame the person who committed the crime. So when I leave my purse in the cart at the grocery store, the person who stole it should be charged with theft. When I lived in a smaller city, there was a string of thefts at the local Outback Steakhouse. In one evening thieves broke into 5 cars and stole purses. The police said "Don't leave your purse in your car in plain sight". They were not blaming the victims, they were giving people advice as to how to avoid being a victim.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 8, 2016 10:02:19 GMT -5
No. But do you think to yourself, that was stupid of me to leave it there. I am going to be more careful about my purse in the future, because even though they caught the purse snatching criminal it was a major pain in the ass to deal with it and I don't want it to happen to me again. That the victim was drunk and passed out is being used to say that his crime was not that serious and he shouldn't have to register as a sex offender. The implied message is that if she had been a good responsible lady she wouldn't have been attacked, therefore it's HER fault. He couldn't help himself. It plays into the underlying gender bias that a woman's chastity is her most valuable asset and she needs to protect it from men who simply cannot help themselves. If we are harmed sexually by a man it is because we did something to deserve it. If the guy that stole your wallet gets caught they don't say "Well thieves will be thieves you know. Maybe that guy shouldn't have been so stupid as to leave his wallet in the car". Police often remind car owners to lock their cars and not keep valuables in plan sight to "avoid becoming a victim." Below is once such message, but it is a message that is often reiterated. blog.al.com/spotnews/2013/08/unlocked_car_doors_criminals_a.html
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 8, 2016 10:03:27 GMT -5
I saw that meme yesterday. I cannot address the older man's conviction for growing the pot plants but I looked up his name and Wiki has an entry for him. If I remember the Wiki entry correctly, the guy was previously convicted of armed robbery from multiple locations in Florida in 2009 (?). Based upon Alabama law, the armed robbery conviction and the pot conviction resulted in him getting him the life sentence. A combination of certain types of felony convictions got him that heavy sentence. Yea, I figured there was more to it and they might not have picked the right guy. But there's a lot of people serving longer sentences then this guy for non violent crimes. Ridiculous. I agree with you the latest conviction and ultimate sentence is ridiculous but then it's Alabama.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 8, 2016 10:03:46 GMT -5
If you leave your purse in the cart at the grocery store by mistake, and someone takes your wallet, are you to blame for the crime? No. But do you think to yourself, that was stupid of me to leave it there. I am going to be more careful about my purse in the future, because even though they caught the purse snatching criminal it was a major pain in the ass to deal with it and I don't want it to happen to me again. agreed. that's the guilt that goes along with being a rape victim.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 8, 2016 10:04:38 GMT -5
No. But do you think to yourself, that was stupid of me to leave it there. I am going to be more careful about my purse in the future, because even though they caught the purse snatching criminal it was a major pain in the ass to deal with it and I don't want it to happen to me again. agreed. that's the guilt that goes along with being a rape victim.
It is a terrible crime.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 8, 2016 10:05:50 GMT -5
No. But do you think to yourself, that was stupid of me to leave it there. I am going to be more careful about my purse in the future, because even though they caught the purse snatching criminal it was a major pain in the ass to deal with it and I don't want it to happen to me again. Yes, you should avoid putting yourself in situations that will make you the victim of crimes. Don't be stupid. That is not blaming the victim, you still blame the person who committed the crime. So when I leave my purse in the cart at the grocery store, the person who stole it should be charged with theft. When I lived in a smaller city, there was a string of thefts at the local Outback Steakhouse. In one evening thieves broke into 5 cars and stole purses. The police said "Don't leave your purse in your car in plain sight". They were not blaming the victims, they were giving people advice as to how to avoid being a victim. you should, however, mistakes happen.
It doesn't give him a right to have sex with her.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jun 8, 2016 10:12:49 GMT -5
I totally agree with tiny's points. Is this worse than vehicular homicide? No way. We are not allowed to blame the victim, but if the victim is so wasted they do not remember it, that is a big problem. I have both daughters and sons, and I give them a similar message. If you put yourself in a bad situation, bad things can happen. If a young man is walking down the street at 2am in a bad part of town with money hanging out of his wallet and gets robbed, we don't say he deserved it, but we say "boy that was stupid of him". So if a girl gets so drunk and gets assaulted, we shouldn't blame her for the crime, but we should say "boy that was stupid of her". I tell all my kids to avoid putting themselves in bad situations, drinking so much that they do stupid things, which would include making one stupid decision like getting behind the wheel when they are not supposed to. Don't do anything stupid, or don't let something stupid happen to you. And BTW I will freely admit to my kids that when I was in college, there were times that drank enough to not remember what happened. Nothing bad ever happened that I know of. This wasn't a case of her being drunk and not remembering the next morning. She was unconscious. The men that recused her stopped because she wasn't moving. She was unconscious when the police showed up. It took her hours to awake. It's the same as if a coconut fell from the tree and knocked her the fuck out. An unconscious person cannot give consent because they're freaking unconscious! Her being passed out because of alcohol is a red herring of them trying to put some of the culpability on her. And fwiw I've been to frat parties and their goal is to make drinks that are potent without the taste. Seriously the one I knew had three different liquors at 151 proof that you couldn't taste the alcohol. Many a girl went from zero to wasted off one glass but didn't start feeling anything until after the glass was done. She was unconscious from drinking. She could not give consent. That was a bad decision on her part, but she in not culpable. The guy did something wrong that is criminal. And I have been there, done that with the 151 drinks at frat parties. So message for women should be to be very cautious in these situations. One drink can make you seriously drunk.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 8, 2016 10:15:50 GMT -5
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 8, 2016 10:18:45 GMT -5
I totally agree with tiny's points. Is this worse than vehicular homicide? No way. We are not allowed to blame the victim, but if the victim is so wasted they do not remember it, that is a big problem. I have both daughters and sons, and I give them a similar message. If you put yourself in a bad situation, bad things can happen. If a young man is walking down the street at 2am in a bad part of town with money hanging out of his wallet and gets robbed, we don't say he deserved it, but we say "boy that was stupid of him". So if a girl gets so drunk and gets assaulted, we shouldn't blame her for the crime, but we should say "boy that was stupid of her". I tell all my kids to avoid putting themselves in bad situations, drinking so much that they do stupid things, which would include making one stupid decision like getting behind the wheel when they are not supposed to. Don't do anything stupid, or don't let something stupid happen to you. And BTW I will freely admit to my kids that when I was in college, there were times that drank enough to not remember what happened. Nothing bad ever happened that I know of. This wasn't a case of her being drunk and not remembering the next morning. She was unconscious. The men that recused her stopped because she wasn't moving. She was unconscious when the police showed up. It took her hours to awake. It's the same as if a coconut fell from the tree and knocked her the fuck out. An unconscious person cannot give consent because they're freaking unconscious! Her being passed out because of alcohol is a red herring of them trying to put some of the culpability on her. And fwiw I've been to frat parties and their goal is to make drinks that are potent without the taste. Seriously the one I knew had three different liquors at 151 proof that you couldn't taste the alcohol. Many a girl went from zero to wasted off one glass but didn't start feeling anything until after the glass was done. The mentality that says it is "okay" to rape an unconsciously drunk woman is akin to saying unconscious women in the hospital also open themselves up to rape. The logic just doesn't prove in either case. As I've told my sons, if a woman has been drinking or drugging, even if she is naked and has unzipped your pants and is pulling them off and is begging you to have sex with her, THE ANSWER IS ALWAYS NO. Just. No. Always. No.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 8, 2016 10:20:09 GMT -5
Of course, because the high school girl was sober.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 8, 2016 11:03:13 GMT -5
No. But do you think to yourself, that was stupid of me to leave it there. I am going to be more careful about my purse in the future, because even though they caught the purse snatching criminal it was a major pain in the ass to deal with it and I don't want it to happen to me again. Yes, you should avoid putting yourself in situations that will make you the victim of crimes. Don't be stupid. That is not blaming the victim, you still blame the person who committed the crime. So when I leave my purse in the cart at the grocery store, the person who stole it should be charged with theft. When I lived in a smaller city, there was a string of thefts at the local Outback Steakhouse. In one evening thieves broke into 5 cars and stole purses. The police said "Don't leave your purse in your car in plain sight". They were not blaming the victims, they were giving people advice as to how to avoid being a victim. While I don't disagree that it's a good idea to give people tips on how to avoid dangerous situations, it seems odd that it's only in rape trials where the victim's lack of using those tips is entered as evidence in the trial. In the trials of thieves or wallet snatchers, you don't have extensive cross examination of the victim about how their actions caused the theft. Imagine it: - So, was your wallet sparkly or otherwise designed to attract attention? - Do you often dangle your wallet in front of strangers? - How often do you let strangers see your wallet? - Did you say "no" when the stranger tried to take your wallet? Did you say it loudly enough so he could hear it? Did you fight back? - How do we know that you didn't agree to give this stranger your wallet? Is it possible the defendant thought you were offering your wallet to him by choosing such an attractive wallet and leaving it in your unzipped purse? Come on, we know this would be laughable - it's not the victim's fault the jerk stole her wallet, there's no way it's reasonable that he didn't know it was wrong and she's not in any way responsible for the theft of her wallet. But somehow these types of questions are reasonable of a woman who was found unconscious behind a dumpster being ground into the dirt by a stranger? The only possible reason to ask these types of questions is to imply that the victim was at fault. It's bullshit.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 8, 2016 11:09:53 GMT -5
Some people always find a way to blame the girl rather she was out cold or not out cold. It'd be no different if a girl was sleeping on her couch in her home and a man came and raped her...which YES has happened.
I don't really care if she put herself in a negative situation or not the sentence for the boy who did it needs to be greater. I don't care if a girl puts herself in a bad situation and drinks so heavily she passes out...there's no excuse for raping someone. She may have to live with the "consequences" of having drank so heavily it happened but that doesn't mean because she put herself in a situation the guy doesn't deserve a punishment.
But I honestly do NOT believe she's at fault at all.
And this girl was not only raped she was also bleeding and bruised.
Also she passed out? The way she didn't remember may not have been only her drinking so much that she got so wasted. I wouldn't be surprised if A. someone convinced her she wasn't drinking too much or B. someone drugged her. In my opinion, I've heard common stories where someone has passed out and later it's found out they were drugged.
You can't just help yourself to what you want because someone's passed out or sleeping.
I just really don't care what the excuses are that he has or what someone wants to blame the girl for. I don't care. The fact is he raped a girl and he deserves the consequences for what he has done.
And when guys like this get away with it..and people give him an excuse and blame her..it just makes situations like this worse.
I can't even put my thoughts into words because it just angers me so much.
Also men have been known to rape girls when they're not passed out and when they're wearing a lot of clothing and when they're not. I wouldn't even be surprised if this guy has thrust himself upon other girls. Eventually, it's found out that's not the first victim, just the first one to speak out. And heck she may not have if events didn't turn out the way they had.
He sounds like an entitled rich kid that gets what he wants no matter the cost. His dad's response is certainly proof enough of that.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 8, 2016 11:11:36 GMT -5
Yes, you should avoid putting yourself in situations that will make you the victim of crimes. Don't be stupid. That is not blaming the victim, you still blame the person who committed the crime. So when I leave my purse in the cart at the grocery store, the person who stole it should be charged with theft. When I lived in a smaller city, there was a string of thefts at the local Outback Steakhouse. In one evening thieves broke into 5 cars and stole purses. The police said "Don't leave your purse in your car in plain sight". They were not blaming the victims, they were giving people advice as to how to avoid being a victim. While I don't disagree that it's a good idea to give people tips on how to avoid dangerous situations, it seems odd that it's only in rape trials where the victim's lack of using those tips is entered as evidence in the trial. In the trials of thieves or wallet snatchers, you don't have extensive cross examination of the victim about how their actions caused the theft. Imagine it: - So, was your wallet sparkly or otherwise designed to attract attention? - Do you often dangle your wallet in front of strangers? - How often do you let strangers see your wallet? - Did you say "no" when the stranger tried to take your wallet? Did you say it loudly enough so he could hear it? Did you fight back? - How do we know that you didn't agree to give this stranger your wallet? Is it possible the defendant thought you were offering your wallet to him by choosing such an attractive wallet and leaving it in your unzipped purse? Come on, we know this would be laughable - it's not the victim's fault the jerk stole her wallet, there's no way it's reasonable that he didn't know it was wrong and she's not in any way responsible for the theft of her wallet. But somehow these types of questions are reasonable of a woman who was found unconscious behind a dumpster being ground into the dirt by a stranger? The only possible reason to ask these types of questions is to imply that the victim was at fault. It's bullshit. You don't think that people who steal cars claim that the owner allowed them to drive it? Or that in other thefts that the items were given to the criminal? I don't have stats, but I think this is not all that uncommon. But in cases of property, there is much less emotion. it is just a car, not a person that has been violated.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 8, 2016 11:12:17 GMT -5
This wasn't a case of her being drunk and not remembering the next morning. She was unconscious. The men that recused her stopped because she wasn't moving. She was unconscious when the police showed up. It took her hours to awake. It's the same as if a coconut fell from the tree and knocked her the fuck out. An unconscious person cannot give consent because they're freaking unconscious! Her being passed out because of alcohol is a red herring of them trying to put some of the culpability on her. And fwiw I've been to frat parties and their goal is to make drinks that are potent without the taste. Seriously the one I knew had three different liquors at 151 proof that you couldn't taste the alcohol. Many a girl went from zero to wasted off one glass but didn't start feeling anything until after the glass was done. The mentality that says it is "okay" to rape an unconsciously drunk woman is akin to saying unconscious women in the hospital also open themselves up to rape. The logic just doesn't prove in either case. As I've told my sons, if a woman has been drinking or drugging, even if she is naked and has unzipped your pants and is pulling them off and is begging you to have sex with her, THE ANSWER IS ALWAYS NO. Just. No. Always. No. Does the same hold true if the guy is drunk? Can girls be arrested for rape because the guy was drunk and couldn't give consent?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 8, 2016 11:15:34 GMT -5
The mentality that says it is "okay" to rape an unconsciously drunk woman is akin to saying unconscious women in the hospital also open themselves up to rape. The logic just doesn't prove in either case. As I've told my sons, if a woman has been drinking or drugging, even if she is naked and has unzipped your pants and is pulling them off and is begging you to have sex with her, THE ANSWER IS ALWAYS NO. Just. No. Always. No. Does the same hold true if the guy is drunk? Can girls be arrested for rape because the guy was drunk and couldn't give consent? I believe they can be but I don't know that they are. I do believe that rapes are underreported by both men and women so I don't think we have accurate stats on men raped by women.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 8, 2016 11:18:02 GMT -5
If you leave your purse in the cart at the grocery store by mistake, and someone takes your wallet, are you to blame for the crime? I left my car open when I was in high school because I was only going to be a minute. Some asshat stole all of my tapes (shut up, I'm old!lol). I totally blame myself because I was stupid for not locking the doors and rolling up the windows. I didn't take the necessary precautions. Yes, he was wrong for stealing my stuff but I was a moron for giving him easy access to it.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 8, 2016 11:20:29 GMT -5
While I don't disagree that it's a good idea to give people tips on how to avoid dangerous situations, it seems odd that it's only in rape trials where the victim's lack of using those tips is entered as evidence in the trial. In the trials of thieves or wallet snatchers, you don't have extensive cross examination of the victim about how their actions caused the theft. Imagine it: - So, was your wallet sparkly or otherwise designed to attract attention? - Do you often dangle your wallet in front of strangers? - How often do you let strangers see your wallet? - Did you say "no" when the stranger tried to take your wallet? Did you say it loudly enough so he could hear it? Did you fight back? - How do we know that you didn't agree to give this stranger your wallet? Is it possible the defendant thought you were offering your wallet to him by choosing such an attractive wallet and leaving it in your unzipped purse? Come on, we know this would be laughable - it's not the victim's fault the jerk stole her wallet, there's no way it's reasonable that he didn't know it was wrong and she's not in any way responsible for the theft of her wallet. But somehow these types of questions are reasonable of a woman who was found unconscious behind a dumpster being ground into the dirt by a stranger? The only possible reason to ask these types of questions is to imply that the victim was at fault. It's bullshit. You don't think that people who steal cars claim that the owner allowed them to drive it? Or that in other thefts that the items were given to the criminal? I don't have stats, but I think this is not all that uncommon. But in cases of property, there is much less emotion. it is just a car, not a person that has been violated. Of course the accused person claims that the owner of the car allowed them to drive it or that the owner of the stolen item gave it to them. Of course! My point is that it's not a line of questioning that is pursued in court because the concept that the victim caused or contributed to the theft is so laughable. At most, one question may be asked of the victim - "did you give the ____ to the defendant?" Victim answers no and questioning moves on. More likely, it's not even asked of the victim in court because it's such a ridiculous idea. The difference in rape trials is that this exact question is put into multiple forms and asked of the rape victim in multiple and insulting ways. There is no single "did you agree to have sex with the person?" question and once the victim says no, then the questions move on. The question is simply rephrased and asked in many different ways, the victim is grilled on this idea - that it was voluntary or she at least caused it in some way - repeatedly. The implication of that questioning and the number of different ways the question is asked is what causes the implied accusation that the victim is at fault. Nobody ever asks the victim of a carjacking or mugging what he was wearing when he was attacked because it's clearly irrelevant. But every single rape victim is asked what she was wearing and the implied meaning behind that question is that somehow her choice of clothing was relevant and contributory.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 8, 2016 11:23:03 GMT -5
Because having a wallet stolen is the same as being rape... <-- sarcasm
And I'm sure she blames herself enough but that doesn't mean he should get a slap on the wrist. People that want to blame the female or tell her what she should have done or hadn't done help in condoning rape culture and help men to believe that they can rape a girl if she makes it easy for them to do so.
Even if the girl was awake and saying "no" they'd probably pick apart her clothing, or find some way to blame her instead of the guy. It never matters if she's awake, or not awake, what she's wearing or what she isn't wearing. Some people always find a way to defend the rapist.
And it's true as Milee says if it went to court of a man stealing someone's wallet it wouldn't matter if the person left it in the open it wouldn't be brought up that the person had it coming.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 8, 2016 11:23:58 GMT -5
Does the same hold true if the guy is drunk? Can girls be arrested for rape because the guy was drunk and couldn't give consent? I believe they can be but I don't know that they are. I do believe that rapes are underreported by both men and women so I don't think we have accurate stats on men raped by women. And my question was in no way defending the guy in this case. This is flat out rape. Being drunk and losing inhibitions and having sex with someone you later regret is not rape in my book (don't care who agrees with me). But this woman was unconscious from all reports. That is rape
Does anyone know how she got behind the dumpster? Did he drug her or was she THAT drunk that she literally passed out as she was walking somewhere. I certainly don't blame her for the rape but I do think that she needs to take precautions for her own safety in the future. There are sick fucks out there
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 8, 2016 11:24:36 GMT -5
You don't think that people who steal cars claim that the owner allowed them to drive it? Or that in other thefts that the items were given to the criminal? I don't have stats, but I think this is not all that uncommon. But in cases of property, there is much less emotion. it is just a car, not a person that has been violated. Of course the accused person claims that the owner of the car allowed them to drive it or that the owner of the stolen item gave it to them. Of course! My point is that it's not a line of questioning that is pursued in court because the concept that the victim caused or contributed to the theft is so laughable. At most, one question may be asked of the victim - "did you give the ____ to the defendant?" Victim answers no and questioning moves on. More likely, it's not even asked of the victim in court because it's such a ridiculous idea. The difference in rape trials is that this exact question is put into multiple forms and asked of the rape victim in multiple and insulting ways. There is no single "did you agree to have sex with the person?" question and once the victim says no, then the questions move on. The question is simply rephrased and asked in many different ways, the victim is grilled on this idea - that it was voluntary or she at least caused it in some way - repeatedly. The implication of that questioning and the number of different ways the question is asked is what causes the implied accusation that the victim is at fault. Nobody ever asks the victim of a carjacking or mugging what he was wearing when he was attacked because it's clearly irrelevant. But every single rape victim is asked what she was wearing and the implied meaning behind that question is that somehow her choice of clothing was relevant and contributory. Just everything you've actually been saying.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 8, 2016 11:29:39 GMT -5
You don't think that people who steal cars claim that the owner allowed them to drive it? Or that in other thefts that the items were given to the criminal? I don't have stats, but I think this is not all that uncommon. But in cases of property, there is much less emotion. it is just a car, not a person that has been violated. Of course the accused person claims that the owner of the car allowed them to drive it or that the owner of the stolen item gave it to them. Of course! My point is that it's not a line of questioning that is pursued in court because the concept that the victim caused or contributed to the theft is so laughable. At most, one question may be asked of the victim - "did you give the ____ to the defendant?" Victim answers no and questioning moves on. More likely, it's not even asked of the victim in court because it's such a ridiculous idea. The difference in rape trials is that this exact question is put into multiple forms and asked of the rape victim in multiple and insulting ways. There is no single "did you agree to have sex with the person?" question and once the victim says no, then the questions move on. The question is simply rephrased and asked in many different ways, the victim is grilled on this idea - that it was voluntary or she at least caused it in some way - repeatedly. The implication of that questioning and the number of different ways the question is asked is what causes the implied accusation that the victim is at fault. Nobody ever asks the victim of a carjacking or mugging what he was wearing when he was attacked because it's clearly irrelevant. But every single rape victim is asked what she was wearing and the implied meaning behind that question is that somehow her choice of clothing was relevant and contributory. I disagree. We know many rapes happen between two people that know each other. So compare that to a car theft between two people that know each other. Did you previously allow the defendant to drive your car? Yes Did you leave the keys on the counter like you always do? Yes Did you tell the defendant not to drive your car this time? No, but I was asleep so I could not say no. You cliam you were asleep but weren't yu texting just five minutes before? Yes but then I fell right asleep. Im not lying. The defandt took my car without asking. It is the same issue of trying to prove intent and consent. But obviously very different because one is a car and one is a person.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 8, 2016 11:29:56 GMT -5
Because having a wallet stolen is the same as being rape... <-- sarcasm And I'm sure she blames herself enough but that doesn't mean he should get a slap on the wrist. People that want to blame the female or tell her what she should have done or hadn't done help in condoning rape culture and help men to believe that they can rape a girl if she makes it easy for them to do so. Even if the girl was awake and saying "no" they'd probably pick apart her clothing, or find some way to blame her instead of the guy. It never matters if she's awake, or not awake, what she's wearing or what she isn't wearing. Some people always find a way to defend the rapist. And it's true as Milee says if it went to court of a man stealing someone's wallet it wouldn't matter if the person left it in the open it wouldn't be brought up that the person had it coming. As the parent of a teenage girl, you don't think I should tell her not to put herself in a position to make herself an easy target? Of course the person that actually commits the crime has ultimate blame for the crime, but there are also steps we can all take to try to prevent becoming a victim.
There are areas I won't go to because I know the crime rates are much higher there. When I go out to a bar, I don't set my drink down and leave it unattended. I don't accept a drink that a stranger hands to me (I will accept it if I watch the bartender make it and hand it directly to me). I lock my doors. I don't walk streets at night. I shouldn't have to do any of these things because no one has the right to violate me. But I also know there are bad people out there so it is up to me to accept responsibility for keeping myself safe.
I just worry that going so far the other way, saying that there was nothing the victim could have done differently to prevent this, sends the wrong message to young women.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 8, 2016 11:33:02 GMT -5
I'm going to regret this... but here goes. Nobody in this thread has said that the victim is in any way responsible for what happened to her. The rape was 100% the fault of the person who committed it. Are we clear on that? Did I leave any room for interpretation with that statement? Ok we can move on to the next sentence, now. All of that being said and meant, FFS take actions to protect yourself and don't get pass out drunk (without at the very least having a support network around you). No I'm not blaming the victim, the rapist doesn't get a pass from me because she was drunk, he should be prosecuted and sentenced to the fullest extent without mercy. You said it so much better than me!
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 8, 2016 11:37:38 GMT -5
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 8, 2016 11:42:56 GMT -5
Of course the accused person claims that the owner of the car allowed them to drive it or that the owner of the stolen item gave it to them. Of course! My point is that it's not a line of questioning that is pursued in court because the concept that the victim caused or contributed to the theft is so laughable. At most, one question may be asked of the victim - "did you give the ____ to the defendant?" Victim answers no and questioning moves on. More likely, it's not even asked of the victim in court because it's such a ridiculous idea. The difference in rape trials is that this exact question is put into multiple forms and asked of the rape victim in multiple and insulting ways. There is no single "did you agree to have sex with the person?" question and once the victim says no, then the questions move on. The question is simply rephrased and asked in many different ways, the victim is grilled on this idea - that it was voluntary or she at least caused it in some way - repeatedly. The implication of that questioning and the number of different ways the question is asked is what causes the implied accusation that the victim is at fault. Nobody ever asks the victim of a carjacking or mugging what he was wearing when he was attacked because it's clearly irrelevant. But every single rape victim is asked what she was wearing and the implied meaning behind that question is that somehow her choice of clothing was relevant and contributory. I disagree. We know many rapes happen between two people that know each other. So compare that to a car theft between two people that know each other. Did you previously allow the defendant to drive your car? Yes Did you leave the keys on the counter like you always do? Yes Did you tell the defendant not to drive your car this time? No, but I was asleep so I could not say no. You cliam you were asleep but weren't yu texting just five minutes before? Yes but then I fell right asleep. Im not lying. The defandt took my car without asking. It is the same issue of trying to prove intent and consent. But obviously very different because one is a car and one is a person. Yes, it definitely is more complicated in the cases where the victim and defendant know each other and have had a relationship that involved sex prior to the alleged rape. And it would be relevant to ask if the two had prior relations. I still don't see that what the woman was wearing was relevant, though... and again, she will be asked that. Just like she will be asked if she has sex with other people an in what situations - again, irrelevant and implying she's a "slut". The case cited in the OP, though is not remotely one of these confusing, complicated boyfriend/girlfriend situations or even a possible date rape. These two were not on a date, and in fact had never met before that night. Their first "meeting" was at the party where both were apparently drunk. She was so drunk she was unconscious and could not be wakened - even though the attack was physically traumatic and left her with serious injuries - or for hours after she was rescued.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 8, 2016 11:43:09 GMT -5
I saw that and it's sickening.
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