new permanent position

[debthaven]

My school is hiring a second permanent English professor for Sept 2016.

I applied for the first post for Sept 2015, I was runner-up. I'm really hesitating. It would be more (but partly different) work for less or the same money. Seems a no-brainer in many ways. I have till 29 Feb to decide. It would mean less teaching so less marking, but either 3 days doing Admin/Mgmt tasks for less money, or 4 days doing Admin/Mgmt tasks for slightly less money.

But it would mean a different, more active role too. I'm pretty sure it would also mean losing my freedom to decide which days / hours I work, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

I'm very, very undecided about reapplying (and there's no guarantee that I'd get it anyway, although I have a decent chance).

I'm an adjunct, I've been there for 5 years. My contract is automatically renewed every year.

Am I crazy for even considering this? I don't earn much, but I'd either earn less and / or work more and earn slightly less. I wouldn't earn any more as permanent staff, although my tasks would be more varied, and I'd have less marking. I'd have less freedom too. 

As much as I wanted that position last year, now, I'm leaning against it. 

Thoughts? 

[Opti]

I'd prefer permanent over 'so far my contract has been renewed every year', but that's me.

[Deleted]

What are the opportunities to increase income going forward? Are the benefits better?

On the surface less flexibility and more responsibility for less money seems a difficult one, but might there be other benefits?

[debthaven]

I'd prefer permanent over 'so far my contract has been renewed every year', but that's me.

For more work and less money? Really? 

ETA: My school uses a very decent contract for adjuncts. If I finish the school year, I am automatically renewed for the following year. The only way I'd be fired is if I did something really bad. It would be the same with a permanent contract. If I did something very bad, that permanent contract wouldn't protect me. 

[debthaven]

What are the opportunities to increase income going forward?
Don't know, those posts are too new on my satellite campus. Honestly, I don't think there are any. Prestige?

Are the benefits better?
Slightly ... 50% transport paid (so 50e per month) plus lunch vouchers (about 80e per month). No change in health benefits for me. Cheaper health insurance than I'd pay as an adjunct but I opted out because I'm covered through DH's plan. If I get and take the permanent position, I can't opt out, but the cost is much lower. A friend told me 8 euros a month but I still have a child at home, she doesn't, so she probably opted for the single person plan. 

[debthaven]

In my five years there, only 2 adjuncts have been fired. One didn't show up for class lol.

I'm not worried about losing my job / not being renewed.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Can you afford the pay cut?
Are you starting to burn out on teaching?
What do you mean by more "active" role? Decision making

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 15, 2016 18:19:45 GMT -5 debthaven said:

I'd prefer permanent over 'so far my contract has been renewed every year', but that's me.

For more work and less money? Really? 

ETA: My school uses a very decent contract for adjuncts. If I finish the school year, I am automatically renewed for the following year. The only way I'd be fired is if I did something really bad. It would be the same with a permanent contract. If I did something very bad, that permanent contract wouldn't protect me. 

Sometimes you need to step back before going forward.

My brother had to learn this lesson.  He was a manager at a Pizza Hut.  A pretty good manager, from what I understand.  Corporate wanted him in their office, but it would be less $$, when you took into account that as a manager, he was also a server and got tips.

He neglected to realize that there were benefits to a corporate job that he didn't receive (paid vacation, sick time, retirement plans, health, life and disability insurance, etc).  In addition, it would put have put him on a path where he had a much greater chance of advancement.

[Opti]

Feb 15, 2016 18:19:45 GMT -5 debthaven said:

I'd prefer permanent over 'so far my contract has been renewed every year', but that's me.

For more work and less money? Really? 

ETA: My school uses a very decent contract for adjuncts. If I finish the school year, I am automatically renewed for the following year. The only way I'd be fired is if I did something really bad. It would be the same with a permanent contract. If I did something very bad, that permanent contract wouldn't protect me. 

You said same or less. For significantly less, probably not. My thought is, if they need to get rid of staff in the future they are more likely to keep permanent staff not adjuncts, but YMMV.

[debthaven]

Chloe I can't really afford the paycut, which is why I'm leaning towards saying no. But, I might try to negotiate a better salary for 3 days, and then tutor. 

More active role = planning, decision making, disciplinary counsel, academic counselling. That really interests me. 

[debthaven]

Opt, the school is growing, they are hiring more staff every year. They are building a new building, it's not even finished yet, and it's already too small. 

Mich, vacation is where it really hurts ... it's 5 weeks, the legal minimum here. I get a LOT more than that as an adjunct (but we can't afford to go away for much of it lol). I still enjoy my time off though, pottering around at home. 

Thanks for all the answers. I need to go to bed now, please don't think I'm being rude. 

[debthaven]

I honestly don't think there is much opportunity for development. 

The language teachers, even the permanent ones (which have existed for years on the main campus, albeit only recently on my 'satellite' campus) are the "poor relations" of the permanent teaching staff. They are paid MUCH MUCH less than the permanent business subject professors (it's a business school). Some discrepancy may be understandable, but we are talking orders of magnitude. 

A few weeks ago my boss (the head of the English dept, on the main campus) was complaining to me because her scheduler told her that as permanent staff, she had to be available from 8 am to 8 pm (which is when classes run on both campuses). As an adjunct, we are told we have to be available for either one or the other. She had to complain to her boss (the big boss, head of languages) that making ppl work 12 hours a day was actually illegal in France. He intervened and the planner changed my boss's schedule. 

I'm worried about dealing with crap like that. For now I set my days, and to some extent, my hours. I do have to agree to either start at 8am or finish at 8pm. But not both! I start at 8am and finish at 5.30pm. Of course I have prep and marking to do, but I generally do that at home (often in pjs or sweats). 

[Tiny]

There must be some pros for taking the permanent professor position - otherwise only the clueless or 'desperate' to get their foot in the door would take the job... and odds are they'd see it as a stepping stone to the  'better' position of being a gauranteed to have the yearly contract renewed position of an adjunct.     I'm not saying you should take the job.  I'm just curious why anyone would take it - if the adjunct positions are so much better?


Also keep in mind that times change... just because your contract was always renewed in the past doesn't mean it will happen in the future.  Otherwise why would they bother with work/expense of having to renew contracts every year?  If your employer is growing - can you see the signs of change?  Where do you think it will all be 3/5/10 years from now?  


I guess what I'm really getting at is:   What's the long term benefits to being a permanent professor?   And do want to take advantage of those benefits?


(a teacher friend derided getting a master's degree 15 years ago - as a way to earn more money - all she could see was "I'd have to spend 10K out of pocket for a 3K raise!  NO Way!"....   There's currently a 20-25K difference between her pay scale and the other's who opted to get the master's scale (they have the same or close to the same number of years teaching).    What if anything  the long term benefit of being a permanent professor??

[giramomma]

Permanent vs. adjunct....

It all depends on where you work.

DH works for state gov't in a branch where about 25% of the workforce is a contract worker. For us, that means your benefit is your paycheck and paying into the state retirement system.. There's no PTO (no vacation, sick leave, or holiday pay), basically no access to health insurance (single premiums were north of 600/month.) Contract workers are typically also paid less since they are hourly workers.

This is how the department keeps their costs down. In times of layoffs, the contract workers are retained, because they are far cheaper than permanent staff. If my DH went full time, he'd cost the state 35K a year, give or take a few K. The salaried worker would cost the state 35K+2450 towards a pension + 12K for health insurance if DH took advantage of that, or close to 50K. Plus, the state is actually getting more work out of a contract worker than salaried...If DH has a work day on Christmas, he has to work a different day to make up the time. Salaried gets paid, but there's no output.

There's a fair amount of folks that spend lots of time being a contract worker for the state. DH's got over 10 years into the system. We anticipate he will never get a permanent job.

Where I work, my position is renewed yearly. It has nothing to do with expenses. It has everything to do with responding to the climate towards education in our state.

[debthaven]

So, I've been talking to several people that I am close to at work. One has always been Permanent, the others became Permanent this year.  

The bottom line is, none of the language teachers go permanent for the money, because all the language teachers who go permanent take a pay cut. The school's justification for that is that we don't have PhDs, and we don't do research. But, the work is more varied, more interesting, you are involved in aspects of the school that adjuncts are not involved in. Obviously that part tempts me, a lot. I was asked to attend a Disciplinary Council for one of my students this week. Adjuncts NEVER attend those. I wondered (after the fact) whether that was some sort of "test". 

My colleagues advised me to look very closely at my payslips, and that if I apply, and if I am offered the position, to try to negotiate as hard as possible to take the smallest pay cut possible. One person who told me this (who is much younger than me) told me she didn't do that, and now she finds herself needing to ask for the school to reevaluate her salary, less than one year later. 

The always-Permanent person (not a language teacher) told me two things I thought were noteworthy: he pointed out that I could apply for the job, and if I get it, try to negotiate what I consider a fair salary, but that I didn't have to accept an offer I would be unhappy with. He also pointed out that there were no Permanent language teachers ever on my (satellite) campus until this school year. They hired 3 for this school year, now they want to hire 3 more for next school year. But, he pointed out, nobody knows if or when they would offer any more Permanent language positions after that. (That's a total of 6 Permanent language teachers, but only 2 for English. The other 4 Permanent positions are for other languages.)

I thought those were very good points. I have pretty much decided that I will apply. If I do, I need to contact my head of department (not my immediate boss), because last year he told me if I reapplied for the next available position, I would not have to go through the formal process again. So I need to know exactly what that means, i.e. do I still need to send a formal CV and cover letter? Or just send him an informal email? My guess is that I will need to send another CV and CL, but that I won't be interviewed again. But obviously I need to check.

Per benefits: Unlike adjuncts, Permanents are entitled to sick leave. But if it's short-term, they still have to make up their classes, like I do now as an adjunct. 

I have not asked if there are different retirement benefits for Permanents, but even as an adjunct, I do pay into retirement. 

As always, thanks for your help. I'm still mulling this over. 

ETA: Also, the colleagues I am closest to are permanent. My closest friend at work, who has become a close friend outside of work, is the person who got the Permanent English position we applied for last year. So of course they are pushing me to apply ... And of course there is also the fear that I will apply, and not get it. 

[zibazinski]

Feb 17, 2016 18:21:21 GMT -5 debthaven said:

So, I've been talking to several people that I am close to at work. One has always been Permanent, the others became Permanent this year.  

The bottom line is, none of the language teachers go permanent for the money, because all the language teachers who go permanent take a pay cut. The school's justification for that is that we don't have PhDs, and we don't do research. But, the work is more varied, more interesting, you are involved in aspects of the school that adjuncts are not involved in. Obviously that part tempts me, a lot. I was asked to attend a Disciplinary Council for one of my students this week. Adjuncts NEVER attend those. I wondered (after the fact) whether that was some sort of "test". 

My colleagues advised me to look very closely at my payslips, and that if I apply, and if I am offered the position, to try to negotiate as hard as possible to take the smallest pay cut possible. One person who told me this (who is much younger than me) told me she didn't do that, and now she finds herself needing to ask for the school to reevaluate her salary, less than one year later. 

The always-Permanent person (not a language teacher) told me two things I thought were noteworthy: he pointed out that I could apply for the job, and if I get it, try to negotiate what I consider a fair salary, but that I didn't have to accept an offer I would be unhappy with. He also pointed out that there were no Permanent language teachers ever on my (satellite) campus until this school year. They hired 3 for this school year, now they want to hire 3 more for next school year. But, he pointed out, nobody knows if or when they would offer any more Permanent language positions after that. (That's a total of 6 Permanent language teachers, but only 2 for English. The other 4 Permanent positions are for other languages.)

I thought those were very good points. I have pretty much decided that I will apply. If I do, I need to contact my head of department (not my immediate boss), because last year he told me if I reapplied for the next available position, I would not have to go through the formal process again. So I need to know exactly what that means, i.e. do I still need to send a formal CV and cover letter? Or just send him an informal email? My guess is that I will need to send another CV and CL, but that I won't be interviewed again. But obviously I need to check.

Per benefits: Unlike adjuncts, Permanents are entitled to sick leave. But if it's short-term, they still have to make up their classes, like I do now as an adjunct. 

I have not asked if there are different retirement benefits for Permanents, but even as an adjunct, I do pay into retirement. 

As always, thanks for your help. I'm still mulling this over. 

ETA: Also, the colleagues I am closest to are permanent. My closest friend at work, who has become a close friend outside of work, is the person who got the Permanent English position we applied for last year. So of course they are pushing me to apply ... And of course there is also the fear that I will apply, and not get it. 

Go for it!

[Phoenix84]

I guess you have to ask yourself if you're worried about your job security.  If you aren't, then I guess the answer is clear.

[finnime]

 So, benefits and job continuation are not sort of concern they'd be in the U.S. for you in France, debthaven.

Money does matter, of course. And so does job content.
 
You'll lose some money - don't know as of now how much.

Job content would/could be more suited to your ambitions.

You'd lose time off and scheduling flexibility.

But - there does not seem to be any downside to applying and if you get an offer, negotiate the $ and possibly schedule. If it doesn't work out, or you are not offered anything, no harm done. And the potential upside is pretty good; to assume different and more challenging duties.

[debthaven]

I heard something pretty unsettling last week ... that I would never be hired as a Permanent Professor because of my age (56).   The colleague who told me this is two years older than I am (I'm 56, she's 58.) There are no permanent positions being offered in her language. She told me I was insane not to apply because of the retirement benefits and the stability, but that I would probably not get it because of my age. 

Anyway, it's done, I just applied. The deadline is 29 Feb, and since it's for Sept, I'm not expecting any news anytime soon, especially since I know I won't have to re-interview. 

My two bosses (N+1 and N+2) were both off last week, so in the end I didn't ask my N+2 anything. I just sent my application to the specific email that was set up for that, but I copied both of them and the Admin who sent the email. 

So I guess "leaned in" LOL. Que sera sera. What will be, will be. 

ETA: We are going to the UK tomorrow for 4-5 days to visit colleges for DS3. I guess I wanted this done before we leave so I can leave with a clear head.  

[debthaven]

ETA: My N+2 is notorious for NEVER replying to emails from us. 

Within 30 min I had an email from him thanking me for applying and telling me to enjoy my week in the UK (the main campus was on vacation last week, my satellite campus is on vacation this week, and DH and DS3 and I are going on a UK college tour for DS3).  

[lund]

It sounds as if your N+2 wants you in that position!

I would check the retirement benefits (and rules) for the new position very closely. And if there are pay raises for the permanent contracts which are the same as for the temp contracts or better.
(Here, the perm people may get a private pension.)

I would also check the retirement ages - not the ones when employees may apply, but the age when they do get kicked out. I would suspect that a permanent employee is safer than a temp one in this aspect.
(Here, it is common to be able to work for one year over full retirement age, two if the employer wants it, and then be out. It is legal and standard procedure.)

I suspect that if some salaries will go up more in order to approach the salaries of employees at corresponding levels, it will be the salaries of those on permanent contracts.

Paid sick leave is usually of more use as the employee gets older, so a plus.

I would assume that job security is better for the permanent hires.

I would also assume that the new job title would look much better in the CV, should it be needed.


So, it boils down to money, time and what the new job entails. Your youngest child is soon at college, so I assume that time would not be such huge a problem. And you think that you would like the new job, so it is probably chiefly a question about money. Can you compensate through tutoring or belt-tightening?
Can you find the pay and retirement information somewhere, or ask your friends?

Best wishes for your future employment!

[debthaven]

A friend (in another language) saw N+2 on our campus today and texted me. He told her that the shortlists were drawn up yesterday and that interviews would be scheduled soon. I already know I won't have another interview. He told her "things will go very quickly" but I've been there long enough not to believe that.   The post is for September. Last year the decision was made at the very end of June, and I expect it will be the same this year.

Lund and Finite, very interesting points. I will try to find out more about retirement, I can ask my friend. Lund yes our youngest child will be away at college next year. It's generally similar here with retirement, you can stay a year or two longer, but I know of teachers who have stayed 5 years past their "official" retirement! Going back to being an adjunct and not having too many classes (i.e. too much marking) would be the perfect PT retirement job! 

In theory these are 80% PT positions but they go from 60%-80%. My ideal would be to negotiate 60% (or 70% with a half day working from home), and then tutor on the side for extra income. With DS3 in college in Sept, I'd like to earn MORE money, not less!

My friend who got the permanent English position this year told me that although they are NOT flexible on salary, they are pretty flexible on hours and days. 

To be honest, even though I'm not even sure I want it, I'm worried about being turned down a second time. That would hurt, but I know that is a possibility. 

[resolution]

I am still trying to figure out the appeal of doing more work for less pay Just be careful and make sure that you aren't too far into the corporate culture to distinguish if this is really a good move or a bad one.

[debthaven]

Resolution, I guess is it comes down to stability. At 56 it's probably not a negligible benefit. 

I haven't had a chance to talk to my friend about retirement benefits, but I'm still planning to. 

No real news, but three small things happened. All these things are insignificant but they are starting to add up. 

The first one happened weeks ago, I didn't even mention it.
- I was asked to attend a disciplinary council for one of my students. The adjuncts NEVER attend those. I was literally the first. 

Then in the past few days:

- my head of department wrote to the 3 permanent language professors on my campus and me and said he needed 3 people to represent the department at this year's graduation. One of the permanent staff is on half-time after having cancer. She is my closest friend at school, and our bosses know we are close. So it's very possible he asked me because we all know extra efforts are difficult for her and he rightly figured I'd make the effort so she didn't have to

- the head of the Bachelor's program (over me but not my direct boss) asked to connect on LinkedIn today. 

I generally loathe uncertainty but the post is for next Sept so it's still early days. Although it doesn't thrill me to give up my Sat afternoon for graduation, I'm local, I'm available, and I'm happy to do the favour for my boss and my friend. 

ETA: I am currently texting w my friend ... she says yes the retirement benefits ARE better, but I haven't asked for details. 

[Works4me]

Debt haven - Even if the money appears to be a bit less on the surface, I am sure the benefits, especially retirement, are better in the long run. It sounds as though they realize how fortunate they would be to get you - good luck!