djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 14, 2016 18:16:13 GMT -5
is it useless as a moral guide? is it a sophism? dbzer0.com/blog/why-the-non-aggression-principle-is-useless-as-a-moral-guideline/While it’s easy to understand that someone “aggresses” when they steal something from another person (which is why most other moral systems do not require a NAP to label theft as wrong), things get pretty murky when one goes beyond that. Do I “initiate force” when I use a productive machine without paying rent? How about if I pay only enough rent to cover the cost of the machine? Do I “initiate force” when I toil the unused land that is owned by someone else? How about when I trespass?
This is further complicated by the claims of the NAP proponents that the NAP does not excuse any and all acts of self-defence but is rather limited by the level of aggression. We’re informed that it does not in fact, grant the right of shooting trespassers. But this again does not really clarify the matter. Whereas in literal aggression, one is always aware of the level the initiator is using (threats, shoving, punching, lethal weapons etc) and can respond in kind, in this extended field of aggression you’re left to comparing apples with oranges. What is the correct response to someone trespassing your property? Trespassing on their property? Forcibly taking them out? Threatening to shoot them and then follow through if they don’t comply? The truth of the matter is that unlike literal aggression, you cannot discover how you can respond in kind intuitively. another example is pollution. if i am polluting, is that being aggressive? do you have the right to stop me? what about collective interests (ie- for limited resources that are our birthright, the ability to obtain clean water and food, etc)?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Feb 14, 2016 18:35:34 GMT -5
It's a nice idea, but it is too simplistic to be of any real use and fails examination at first review. And most of what would be legitimately prohibited is already done so by other laws and does not require the NAP.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 17, 2016 12:31:31 GMT -5
here is where i find fault with the NAP (borrowed heavily from the Wiki entry):
1) it is an "absolute principle" and doesn't allow for utilitarian arguments. IE- if taxes are considered "aggression" under this principle, the basic functions of governing cannot happen (even ones that minarchists aggree with). 2) it doesn't handle the basic necessities of modern life very well. i can't even light my stove without polluting, which infringes on the property rights of others. 3) it legitimizes non-physical forms of aggression such as harassment, discrimination and defamation. 4) it is logically inconsistent in terms of regulating any of the above (it seeks to protect property rights, but won't allow for pollution and environmental laws, or more broadly, their implementation).
the broader statement, which i use often is this:
a person should be allowed to do whatever he wishes with his person or property, so long as he is not harming the person or property of a non-consenting other.
stated as a positive right, it overcomes most of the above objections.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 17, 2016 13:20:05 GMT -5
I support NAP.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 17, 2016 17:52:37 GMT -5
I support NAP. i have never been a big fan of naps. when i wake up from them, i feel hung over.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 17, 2016 19:55:51 GMT -5
I support NAP. i have never been a big fan of naps. when i wake up from them, i feel hung over. I didn't say naps. I said NAP. Stands for "Not Again Please".
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 17, 2016 21:12:16 GMT -5
i have never been a big fan of naps. when i wake up from them, i feel hung over. I didn't say naps. I said NAP. Stands for "Not Again Please". LOL!
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Apr 17, 2016 22:01:13 GMT -5
I enjoy a NAP.
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