The 'N' Word

[Virgil Showlion]

TL;DR: Why is there a sub-culture built around the 'N' word? What is the psychology in play?


It was a crisp snowy morning and I was on my way to work. I noticed a man coming towards me, 20 feet ahead. Middle of the sidewalk, a bizarre gait where his legs kicked out to the sides in between steps, running pedestrians into the street as they parted to avoid him. He was talking on his mobile phone.

Before I could help myself, I thought, "I'll bet this guy is from the ghetto."

Then my inner SJW slapped me: "Stereotyping! Racism! How dare you, Virgil. Think of the children!"

As the two forces fought in out in my mind, he passed by. I gave him a wide berth. He was talking loudly. He said only three words while I was in earshot (and I quote): "F- N-, F- !"

I got on the subway pondering the experience.

Did I know what he was going to say, or did I just suspect it? What did I think about the man? Did I think "He's ghetto trash.", or "He's just a regular guy." or maybe "He's just a regular guy who talks 'ghetto trash'."? Did I separate the speech from the man? What is 'ghetto trash'? Does it even have meaning? Is it a thing? Is it a state of mind? Is it a group of people?

After thinking it over, I concluded that: i) "ghetto" to me is group identifiable by a specific pattern of behaviour; I considered this man 'ghetto' specifically because of the way he talked and acted, ii) I do not like the 'ghetto' culture at all, and iii) I presaged the man's speech through stereotyping based on his race and general demeanour (the "strut" and complete disregard for social courtesy while plowing through pedestrians on the sidewalk).

As it so happened, in the midst of my pondering, the man sitting next to me on the subway started singing along (intermittently) with the lyrics to the music he was listing to. He had headphones on. I could barely hear the music. His singing wasn't particularly loud, but loud enough in the silent subway car that everybody around him could hear it.

I won't quote the lyrics here, but suffice it to say: the N- word was every sixth word, and the song was violent and utterly perverse. Disgusting. Being in the state of mind I was in, I came within 30 seconds of telling him what I thought of his music. I'm meek in real life. I don't like hostile confrontation with strangers and I nearly always conclude that confrontation will make matters worse rather than better. The fact that I came within 30 seconds of telling this guy off was a testament to how disgusting I found his music.

He got off before I said anything and I rode the rest of the way to work in peace.

It occurred to me that the second encounter provided some insight on the first one. These men acted "ghetto trash" because that's what they listen to. That's what their entertainers glorify, and hence what the men idolize. They idolize what is simply the most backward, dehumanizing, sick, idiotic, ... I lack the adjectives... cultural dung anywhere to be found on the face of the Earth. I mean that. Not even ISIS, Kim Jong Un, or Hitler himself could top it. It's about murder, torture, rape, hatred, greed, lust... And every sixth word, N-, N-, N-.

That word (along with a boatload of profanity) seems to be the hallmark of the "subculture", if we can even call it that. It punctuates the utter perversity of the thinking. Let's take a word that historically represented white men's disdain for black men, a word that's totally taboo in polite society today (and has been for decades), and just... pepper our speech with it. Refer to our friends and family and anyone else using it like it's a mark of pride. Thirteen-year-old teeny bopper girls have "like", and the ghetto has the N- word.

Now... I've heard and read theories about the word. One is that the N-word with an "-a" suffix rather than the "-er" suffix has a totally different meaning, which to me just seems like the stupidest argument ever, but... I don't know... stupider theories have turned out to be true. I've also seen putatively racist individuals claim the N- word refers specifically to people of any race that embrace and live the ghetto subculture, rather than to black people generally. Hence, in this theory, my black colleagues at work aren't described by the word, and it would be wrong to call them that, but the fellow on the subway is described by it, and proof of this fact is that he and his friends use it to refer to themselves.

My problem with this second theory, aside from the fact that it's utter lunacy, is that it seems to be partly correct--at least in the sense that it makes a stark distinction between two groups of people. There seems to be a fracturing of historically marginalized minorities (predominantly blacks) into two groups: one, definitely the majority here in Canada, who are just like anybody else--unremarkable, courteous, non-violent, soft-spoken, perfectly adapted to western society, who categorically abhor the N- word--and a very distinct second group, smaller but definitely not just "a few bad apples", that lives and breathes the filth spewed out by these entertainers, imbibes it, lives it, and can be identified by their total lack of respect, slovenly dress, nonexistent morals, and every sixth word, N-, N-, N-.

The two groups are totally distinct, without any middle ground. You either like the music or you don't. If you like the music (I'm talking about the really sick stuff here, not just guys rapping about their girlfriends cheating on them), you like the dress, you like the swagger, you like the lifestyle, you like the speech, you like everything about it, and you advertise your membership to the world by using the N- word. If you don't like the music, then you don't dress ghetto, you don't live ghetto, you don't talk ghetto, you abhor anything and everything ghetto-related (which is A-OK in my book), and you treat the N- word as what it is: an abominable relic of American slavery. Two poles, and never the twain shall meet.

So my questions:

1. Does what I've described thus far mesh with your own experiences? Specifically, have you observed this same polarization?

2. This is presumably the same group that decries being loathed and marginalized by whites, and yet for all intents and purposes they seem to be absolutely in love with this dynamic. There's no other way to put it. They want to be hated.

If your goal is to be accepted, why would you sing songs about raping people, murdering people, murdering police officers, getting white people to ... (just use your imagination)? Why plow through pedestrians in your ghetto clothes, swear out loud wherever you feel like with ghetto language, and call your friends N- like a hypocrite? It just doesn't make sense, and I think this group knows that. I think they know exactly what the results are going to be. Yet this would imply they want to be loathed and marginalized, and that doesn't make sense to me either.

3. Where are the SJWs in all of this? Are they too busy picketing bakers in Oregon that they don't notice the utter filth this sub-culture oozes? Why are we seeing hysterical "Black Lives Matter" protests trying to shut down university newspapers, but not hysterical "No N-Word!" protests in the middle of elementary schools and the performances of the superstars that glorify this subculture? The impact of this problem has got to be at least 100,000 times greater than an insensitive comment made by a university newspaper writer, so where the hell are these people? Are they so incredibly useless that not only is it their mission to force political correctness down people's throats, but they can't even be bothered to do it when it might actually make a positive difference?

4. What is the point of using the N- word? Why do people use it? Do they think it's cool? Rebellious? They're sticking it to the man? They're oppressed and they want everyone to know it? They don't care and they want everyone to know it? They're just idiots who parrot whatever they hear on the radio? Why? What is wrong with these people?

[Deleted]

How old were the men?

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 11, 2016 21:41:40 GMT -5 oped said:

How old were the men?

Both in their 20's. Definitely not older than 30.

[Deleted]

I think maybe that's part of it? Maybe?

I know this doesn't seem like the same thing, but when I was late teens early 20s, I knew all the blond jokes. Yes, I'm naturally blond. So, what do you call a red head hooker and two blond hookers? Regular price, 5 bucks, 5 bucks (remember that pizza campaign? ) ... Anyway... Why would I tell jokes that were degrading and mysoginistic and aimed specifically at me? whatever my rationale and I could guess at it, it hasn't kept with me.

My son is 17. Despite the current idea that younger people are too offended by everything, that's actually more me at my stage. He thinks everyone is too sensitive and some of the jokes he tells make me decidedly uncomfortable. And some of the crap he watches on YouTube, etc. is just so ugly to me. But I can also remember a time when my dark sense of humor was a lot darker...

I'm not making a very clear connection between spy examples and what you saw, but sometimes I think there are similar motivations/mindsets wrapped up there, and I do wonder if age is a factor at all?

[moon/Laura]

Uh.. I listen to "ghetto trash" music. A lot. But I'm not ghetto trash the majority of the time. I certainly *can* be, when I'm talkin' smack with my coworkers though. However, under no circumstances would I use that word.

[zibazinski]

Who do these people live off of? Does anyone ever employ them or are they doomed to being in a gang?

[Deleted]

Hmmmmm.. Not quite sure how to respond to the thought out commentary without causing offense.


I'll be back later tho', with comments fromthe

[happyhoix]

 2. This is presumably the same group that decries being loathed and marginalized by whites, and yet for all intents and purposes they seem to be absolutely in love with this dynamic. There's no other way to put it. They want to be hated.  I don't think they want to be hated. I think they want to be perceived as being 'tough.' This is the same thing, IMHO, as the young males who copied the Marlon Brando/motorcycle gang/tough guy look and lifestyle back in the 40s and 50s. They want to demonstrate to society that they are not constrained by the normal social conventions - not much different from the hippie generation running around half dressed, stoned, and with long hair.

If your goal is to be accepted, why would you sing songs about raping people, murdering people, murdering police officers, getting white people to ... (just use your imagination)? Why plow through pedestrians in your ghetto clothes, swear out loud wherever you feel like with ghetto language, and call your friends N- like a hypocrite? It just doesn't make sense, and I think this group knows that. I think they know exactly what the results are going to be. Yet this would imply they want to be loathed and marginalized, and that doesn't make sense to me either.  They are concerned about how they look to their peers, not to society. They adopt the music/clothes/language of their peers in order to fit in with (and maybe be the leader of) their peer group. Being an old fart, I can remember how scandalous it was for young males to sport long hair, facial hair and bellbottom pants (the generally accepted male look at the time was a crew cut, clean shaven and neat shirts and pants). The fact that these young males wanted to openly cohabitate with young women they weren't married to (rather than visit a discreet brothel for a secret little romp) and that they used drugs (rather than drinking beer like clean upstanding men) was outrageous, at the time, and there was a lot of public commentary about how American was going completely into the crapper.  IMHO the black rapper subculture is doing the same thing, showing how little they care about 'normal' society.

3. Where are the SJWs in all of this? Are they too busy picketing bakers in Oregon that they don't notice the utter filth this sub-culture oozes? Why are we seeing hysterical "Black Lives Matter" protests trying to shut down university newspapers, but not hysterical "No N-Word!" protests in the middle of elementary schools and the performances of the superstars that glorify this subculture? The impact of this problem has got to be at least 100,000 times greater than an insensitive comment made by a university newspaper writer, so where the hell are these people? Are they so incredibly useless that not only is it their mission to force political correctness down people's throats, but they can't even be bothered to do it when it might actually make a positive difference? You haven't seen any talking heads speaking out about this? Bill Cosby (before he got embroiled in his personal mess) talked a lot about this. I've heard many celebrities and several older Civil Rights activists complaining about the casual use of the N word in conversation and music. Also several female celebrity/talking heads complaining about the degradation of women in that kind of music, and there was that big stink about one of those rappers who slept with an underage girl. Bottom line, though, is that dang free speech part of the constitution. If one of these guys has a concert, you make the choice to attend or not attend, and if you don't like it you leave - just like with a KKK rally or a Bonnaroo (which has a lot of naked young women and drugs on display).   You can refuse to attend, you can refuse to let your kids attend, but you can't make them just go away.

4. What is the point of using the N- word? Why do people use it? Do they think it's cool? Rebellious? They're sticking it to the man? They're oppressed and they want everyone to know it? They don't care and they want everyone to know it? They're just idiots who parrot whatever they hear on the radio? Why? What is wrong with these people? You remember how the word 'queer' used to be derogatory (or maybe you don't, you're a lot younger than me). Queer was the ultimate insult in my elementary school, between one boy to another. The gay subculture purposefully co-opted the words 'gay' and 'queer' to take the 'bad' out of them. I've heard several black commentators claim that the black community is doing the same thing to the N word. However, I've heard other black commentators claim BS on that. Why do people use it? I would say some people still use that word to be insulting and some people use it as a 'code' to signify membership in this subculture. 

[swamp]

That's a lot of deep thought for a Friday morning.

Ni... was co-opted like "gay" was. It has the same shock value as "fuck" does.

They want to fit in with their peers. I often dressed the "heavy metal chick" part in HS. I did not worship satan, take a pile of drugs, have a drinking problem, or have random sex with whomever. I went on to be a gainfully employed upstanding citizen who volunteers her time and money in the community and I'm pretty much a soccer mom.

I have several friends/acquantainces from law school who were a bit "off" or offensive as teens, early 20's. There doing fine now.

Don't judge a book by its cover. You may miss the bible dressed up as 50 shades of gray.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 11, 2016 22:01:19 GMT -5 oped said:

I'm not making a very clear connection between spy examples and what you saw, but sometimes I think there are similar motivations/mindsets wrapped up there, and I do wonder if age is a factor at all?

I think you're right in the sense that--to a degree--people tend to "wise up" as they grow older. But these two individuals were old enough to know better. Even if their behaviour started as a by-product of teenage rebelliousness, it became an ingrained part of their lifestyle.

Feb 11, 2016 22:08:11 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

Uh.. I listen to "ghetto trash" music. A lot. But I'm not ghetto trash the majority of the time. I certainly *can* be, when I'm talkin' smack with my coworkers though. However, under no circumstances would I use that word.

When you say "ghetto trash music", you mean the stuff about executing rivals, abusing women, murder, etc.?

Feb 12, 2016 10:03:53 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

 2. This is presumably the same group that decries being loathed and marginalized by whites, and yet for all intents and purposes they seem to be absolutely in love with this dynamic. There's no other way to put it. They want to be hated.  I don't think they want to be hated. I think they want to be perceived as being 'tough.' This is the same thing, IMHO, as the young males who copied the Marlon Brando/motorcycle gang/tough guy look and lifestyle back in the 40s and 50s. They want to demonstrate to society that they are not constrained by the normal social conventions - not much different from the hippie generation running around half dressed, stoned, and with long hair.

If your goal is to be accepted, why would you sing songs about raping people, murdering people, murdering police officers, getting white people to ... (just use your imagination)? Why plow through pedestrians in your ghetto clothes, swear out loud wherever you feel like with ghetto language, and call your friends N- like a hypocrite? It just doesn't make sense, and I think this group knows that. I think they know exactly what the results are going to be. Yet this would imply they want to be loathed and marginalized, and that doesn't make sense to me either.  They are concerned about how they look to their peers, not to society. They adopt the music/clothes/language of their peers in order to fit in with (and maybe be the leader of) their peer group. Being an old fart, I can remember how scandalous it was for young males to sport long hair, facial hair and bellbottom pants (the generally accepted male look at the time was a crew cut, clean shaven and neat shirts and pants). The fact that these young males wanted to openly cohabitate with young women they weren't married to (rather than visit a discreet brothel for a secret little romp) and that they used drugs (rather than drinking beer like clean upstanding men) was outrageous, at the time, and there was a lot of public commentary about how American was going completely into the crapper.  IMHO the black rapper subculture is doing the same thing, showing how little they care about 'normal' society.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Regarding being "tough". "Tough" guys are the guys that people cross the street to avoid. They're the people store clerks keep an eye on, women traveling alone keep an eye on, police keep an eye on. "Tough" means violent, obstinate, and easily provoked. In this case it also means arrogant and inconsiderate.

In short, you can't act "tough" but at the same time expect that people won't treat you like a threat. And my understanding of "white privilege" is that whites supposedly don't understand the burden of being scrutinized, feared, and suspected. So which of the two is it going to be? Do you want to be "tough" or do you want to be treated like anybody else? You can't have it both ways.

Regarding peer pressure, I agree that's definitely part of it. Peers feed off of each other's social behaviours. I'm interested in the roots of those behaviours in this case.

Feb 12, 2016 10:03:53 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

3. Where are the SJWs in all of this? Are they too busy picketing bakers in Oregon that they don't notice the utter filth this sub-culture oozes? Why are we seeing hysterical "Black Lives Matter" protests trying to shut down university newspapers, but not hysterical "No N-Word!" protests in the middle of elementary schools and the performances of the superstars that glorify this subculture? The impact of this problem has got to be at least 100,000 times greater than an insensitive comment made by a university newspaper writer, so where the hell are these people? Are they so incredibly useless that not only is it their mission to force political correctness down people's throats, but they can't even be bothered to do it when it might actually make a positive difference? You haven't seen any talking heads speaking out about this? Bill Cosby (before he got embroiled in his personal mess) talked a lot about this. I've heard many celebrities and several older Civil Rights activists complaining about the casual use of the N word in conversation and music. Also several female celebrity/talking heads complaining about the degradation of women in that kind of music, and there was that big stink about one of those rappers who slept with an underage girl. Bottom line, though, is that dang free speech part of the constitution. If one of these guys has a concert, you make the choice to attend or not attend, and if you don't like it you leave - just like with a KKK rally or a Bonnaroo (which has a lot of naked young women and drugs on display).   You can refuse to attend, you can refuse to let your kids attend, but you can't make them just go away.

I know that Mr. Cosby and Oprah Winfrey have been outspoken on the issue. Mr. Cosby's fall from grace has been devastating in this regard. I'm talking more about the tens of thousands of self-described "Justice Warriors" dedicated to combating anything they perceive to be racism.

It's definitely not that they respect freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is more or less irrelevant to them.

Personally I think the general disinterest in combating ghetto culture is equal parts sloth and cowardice. It's easy enough to protest against an embattled university newspaper editor, but when it comes to dealing with truly "tough", violent, remorseless individuals promoting genuine hatred, we see how shallow their dedication to "justice" actually is.

Feb 12, 2016 10:03:53 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

4. What is the point of using the N- word? Why do people use it? Do they think it's cool? Rebellious? They're sticking it to the man? They're oppressed and they want everyone to know it? They don't care and they want everyone to know it? They're just idiots who parrot whatever they hear on the radio? Why? What is wrong with these people? You remember how the word 'queer' used to be derogatory (or maybe you don't, you're a lot younger than me). Queer was the ultimate insult in my elementary school, between one boy to another. The gay subculture purposefully co-opted the words 'gay' and 'queer' to take the 'bad' out of them. I've heard several black commentators claim that the black community is doing the same thing to the N word. However, I've heard other black commentators claim BS on that. Why do people use it? I would say some people still use that word to be insulting and some people use it as a 'code' to signify membership in this subculture. 

I don't think "gay" was ever a bad word beyond meaning "homosexual". It's still very much used as a slur today.

The same is true of "queer". If I say "I was in line at the supermarket and some queer was in line behind me chatting on his phone," you'd know it was derogation. So I agree with the commentators that claim BS.

I think the N- word is a 'code', as you suppose. It's a kind of ghetto elitism that says, "We can use this term liberally, but we'll take grave exception if anyone else uses it."  I don't care if the intention is to convey a "tough" persona or instill a sense of solidarity, the 'code' is a recipe for breeding resentment. At the very least, it's hypocritical and juvenile.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 12, 2016 10:54:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

That's a lot of deep thought for a Friday morning.

Ni... was co-opted like "gay" was. It has the same shock value as "fuck" does.

They want to fit in with their peers. I often dressed the "heavy metal chick" part in HS. I did not worship satan, take a pile of drugs, have a drinking problem, or have random sex with whomever. I went on to be a gainfully employed upstanding citizen who volunteers her time and money in the community and I'm pretty much a soccer mom.

I have several friends/acquantainces from law school who were a bit "off" or offensive as teens, early 20's. There doing fine now.

Don't judge a book by its cover. You may miss the bible dressed up as 50 shades of gray.

Did you use the N- word in high school?

I'm theorizing that the use of that word is a kind of signature of people for whom ghetto culture is more than just a passing fad.

[swamp]

Feb 12, 2016 11:40:42 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 12, 2016 10:54:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

That's a lot of deep thought for a Friday morning.

Ni... was co-opted like "gay" was. It has the same shock value as "fuck" does.

They want to fit in with their peers. I often dressed the "heavy metal chick" part in HS. I did not worship satan, take a pile of drugs, have a drinking problem, or have random sex with whomever. I went on to be a gainfully employed upstanding citizen who volunteers her time and money in the community and I'm pretty much a soccer mom.

I have several friends/acquantainces from law school who were a bit "off" or offensive as teens, early 20's. There doing fine now.

Don't judge a book by its cover. You may miss the bible dressed up as 50 shades of gray.

Did you use the N- word in high school?

I'm theorizing that the use of that word is a kind of signature of people for whom ghetto culture is more than just a passing fad.

no, because there was 1 black kid in the entire HS.    And I don't think it's an appropriate word to use.

I call my friends bitches.   Yes, it could be derogatory, but it's co-opting a derogatory term and making it a term of endearment/empowerment.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 12, 2016 11:56:44 GMT -5 swamp said:

I call my friends bitches.   Yes, it could be derogatory, but it's co-opting a derogatory term and making it a term of endearment/empowerment.

Good luck with that.


Swamp: What's up, bitches?

Swamp's Friends: Hey! It's our favourite bitch!

Swamp: You bitches miss me?

Swamp's Friends: You bet, bitch.

Observer: *sigh* Wow. What a perfect bond of friendship they share.

(later that day)

Swamp's Husband: Hey! My pretty little bitch is home!

Swamp: Hey, dickhead! Good to see you.

[swamp]

Are you eavesdropping on DH and me?

[happyhoix]

Feb 12, 2016 11:40:42 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 12, 2016 10:54:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

That's a lot of deep thought for a Friday morning.

Ni... was co-opted like "gay" was. It has the same shock value as "fuck" does.

They want to fit in with their peers. I often dressed the "heavy metal chick" part in HS. I did not worship satan, take a pile of drugs, have a drinking problem, or have random sex with whomever. I went on to be a gainfully employed upstanding citizen who volunteers her time and money in the community and I'm pretty much a soccer mom.

I have several friends/acquantainces from law school who were a bit "off" or offensive as teens, early 20's. There doing fine now.

Don't judge a book by its cover. You may miss the bible dressed up as 50 shades of gray.

Did you use the N- word in high school?

I'm theorizing that the use of that word is a kind of signature of people for whom ghetto culture is more than just a passing fad.

There are some young blacks that get into the gang type lifestyle and graduate to be thugs (or dead) but there are also plenty that are only going through a phase and end up going to college or working a full time job.  I don't think it's fair to claim they are all part of some antisocial, anti-woman, profane posse and they'll stay that way for the rest of their lives, anymore than all the hippie kids in the 60's remained anti-establishment pot heads. Some of the most conservative, Christian, upstanding community people I know today had a colorful past as a free love, pot smoking, long haired, anti-establishment hippie.  

Young adults often go through this kind of thing, especially when they think the establishment is blind to them and the unfairness of their situation. (In the sixties, they were protesting being drafted into an unpopular war - the current angry young black males are protesting how indifferent society seems to be when one of them gets killed).

 

In both cases, the angry hippies and the angry rappers want to express to the establishment how much they don't care about their opinion of them. Both are succeeding.

[Tiny]

IDK, I caught a bunch of 'college guys' (a couple in the group were related to me)calling each other all sorts of politically incorrect terms and even a few derogatory terms for women (you know -- the ones dealing with women's anatomy) amongst themselves. (In the distant past I walked in on the guys at Work being "boys" doing something similar - sometimes back in the day when I'd be the only woman in the work room and the guys would turn into 10 year olds and use language you didn't use in 'polite society').


I tend to think that when men/young men are talking about people they know or who are included in the current conversation - that using nasty language is acceptable TO THEM.

Basically, it's an Us and Them thing. As long as you are slamming the derogatory words at someone who's an "Us" - it's ok and fun. But, when you start slamming those words at someone who's s a "Them" - then they are fightin' words.

That point of view has kind of squashed the "oh no! I'm stereotyping someone with a 'bad label'" line of thought. Instead, I'm stereotype-ing them as a 10 yo "full of himself" male child (doesn't matter what skin color or even gender). So yeah it's still stereotyping.

FWIW:  I don't really want my friends calling me nasty things - even if it is friendly...  so I totally don't get the appeal/reason for it.

 
 

[Deleted]

Feb 11, 2016 21:35:20 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

What is the psychology in play?


 What is wrong with these people?

Nothing really.  It's just his culture on display.  The words/activities are mostly just noise that don't apply to your cultural standard.  I will never belong to that culture.  It's hard to accept due to my upbringing.  So I just ignore it.  The wind makes noise when it blows also.  As far as kicking his legs out to drive people off the sidewalk ?  That kind of thing doesn't happen around here with all us crazy, gun toting rednecks making up a big part of the population.

[Virgil Showlion]

Destined to grow up or not, how do you deal with the ones determined to be "tough"? Is it not appropriate to cross the street, keep an eye on them, want nothing to do with them until they wise up? Is that not the quintessence of "white privilege"? But they bring it on themselves.

Not only that, they bring it on anyone else that looks, acts, and dresses like they do. Maybe the fellow on the subway was the nicest guy in the world, but if he's singing along with songs that promote hatred, murder, and mayhem, what are people around him supposed to think about the culture he represents.

If the fellow on the sidewalk is swearing into his phone and running people into the street, what are people supposed to do the next time they see somebody who looks and dresses like him coming towards them on the sidewalk?

[jkapp]

Feb 12, 2016 10:54:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

That's a lot of deep thought for a Friday morning.

Ni... was co-opted like "gay" was. It has the same shock value as "fuck" does.

They want to fit in with their peers. I often dressed the "heavy metal chick" part in HS. I did not worship satan, take a pile of drugs, have a drinking problem, or have random sex with whomever. I went on to be a gainfully employed upstanding citizen who volunteers her time and money in the community and I'm pretty much a soccer mom.

I have several friends/acquantainces from law school who were a bit "off" or offensive as teens, early 20's. There doing fine now.

Don't judge a book by its cover. You may miss the bible dressed up as 50 shades of gray.

But do you honestly believe either of the two people mentioned in the story above will be going through law school any time soon? 

[swamp]

Feb 12, 2016 18:30:37 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Feb 12, 2016 10:54:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

That's a lot of deep thought for a Friday morning.

Ni... was co-opted like "gay" was. It has the same shock value as "fuck" does.

They want to fit in with their peers. I often dressed the "heavy metal chick" part in HS. I did not worship satan, take a pile of drugs, have a drinking problem, or have random sex with whomever. I went on to be a gainfully employed upstanding citizen who volunteers her time and money in the community and I'm pretty much a soccer mom.

I have several friends/acquantainces from law school who were a bit "off" or offensive as teens, early 20's. There doing fine now.

Don't judge a book by its cover. You may miss the bible dressed up as 50 shades of gray.

But do you honestly believe either of the two people mentioned in the story above will be going through law school any time soon? 

I don't know them so I can't say so. 

One of my friends in law school followed the Dead for a few years and worked odd jobs.  If you saw him when he was 21 you wouldn't think that he would have ever become a productive citizen.  He's now a very well respected trial attorney. 

[swamp]

Feb 12, 2016 17:25:31 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Destined to grow up or not, how do you deal with the ones determined to be "tough"? Is it not appropriate to cross the street, keep an eye on them, want nothing to do with them until they wise up? Is that not the quintessence of "white privilege"? But they bring it on themselves.

Not only that, they bring it on anyone else that looks, acts, and dresses like they do. Maybe the fellow on the subway was the nicest guy in the world, but if he's singing along with songs that promote hatred, murder, and mayhem, what are people around him supposed to think about the culture he represents.

If the fellow on the sidewalk is swearing into his phone and running people into the street, what are people supposed to do the next time they see somebody who looks and dresses like him coming towards them on the sidewalk?

Trip him "by accident". 

[Deleted]

I hear the bitch thing used a lot more these days between women.

[zibazinski]

No women I know.

[Deleted]

Feb 12, 2016 19:05:46 GMT -5 oped said:

I hear the bitch thing used a lot more these days between women.

It is an insulting way to talk about other women if used as a noun.  If one of my girls ever talked that way, I would be upset.  It is okay if you use 'bitch' to mean gripe.  It is also a good word if you want to insult.

[sesfw]

This thread brought back a memory of a couple of years ago.



I was standing at a light rail station in downtown Phx and a group of four late teen aged black men (boys) were talking.  They were nicely dressed, clean-cut young men that any parent or employer would be proud of.

The words that came out of their mouths destroyed all of that.

I almost asked they why they were calling each other and others they were talking about the 'N' word in every sentence.

However me being a 5', 72 yr old white lady ............. I had second thoughts.

[Deleted]

Was just watching the new Superstore and the teen worker and her friend called each other bitch. I think I've probably used it. Again it's one of those words where the stigma is being co/opted.

[billisonboard]

Feb 12, 2016 17:25:31 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

...

If the fellow on the sidewalk is swearing into his phone and running people into the street, what are people supposed to do the next time they see somebody who looks and dresses like him coming towards them on the sidewalk?

Assess whether that individual is engaging in the same behavior or not and react accordingly to that individual.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 13, 2016 13:53:15 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Feb 12, 2016 17:25:31 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

...

If the fellow on the sidewalk is swearing into his phone and running people into the street, what are people supposed to do the next time they see somebody who looks and dresses like him coming towards them on the sidewalk?

Assess whether that individual is engaging in the same behavior or not and react accordingly to that individual.

Obviously. The problem being that a fair percentage of the time the assessment is going to be "This guy looks like bad news, just like the last one. Better cross the street or give him a wide berth." regardless of whether or not he deserves the stigma. Ergo, he gets a dose of "white privilege".

[billisonboard]

Feb 13, 2016 13:53:15 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Feb 12, 2016 17:25:31 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

...

If the fellow on the sidewalk is swearing into his phone and running people into the street, what are people supposed to do  the next time they see somebody who looks and dresses like him coming towards them on the sidewalk?

Assess whether that individual is engaging in the same behavior or not and react accordingly to that individual.

Feb 14, 2016 8:09:26 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Obviously. The problem being that a fair percentage of the time the assessment is going to be "This guy looks like bad news, just like the last one. Better cross the street or give him a wide berth." regardless of whether or not he deserves the stigma. Ergo, he gets a dose of "white privilege".

Your question was "... what are people supposed to do ...". My answer was "assess ... individual .... behavior. ...".  Now if you are considering the behavior the individual is "engaging in" is he dressed himself in similar garb, "(t)his guy looks like ..." would be an assessment of behavior.  I was thinking in terms of his behavior in the moment of walking on the sidewalk.

Assessing people on things that they can control is not an issue to me. I was working with a middle school girl once. She had bright pink hair, dressed all in black, and had multiple chains hanging on her. She complained that people judged her based on her appearance. I told her that if I went to all the effort she obviously had to create an "appearance" and people ignored it,  that is what would upset me. She said she liked the look. So I told her then she needed to deal with the consequences. I watched her start to work harder to help people see the truly wonderful individual she was and not stick with their original assessment.

If an individual chooses to dress in a manner that has a common negative social interpretation, it is their responsibility to work to change individuals interpretation of them as an individual. If an individual is born with a trait that other individuals interpret negatively, it is not the responsibility of the person with the trait to create change. 

Back to the guy on the sidewalk. Is he engaging in behavior that it is reasonable for those passing him to see he just likes a look or is he not? I have no problem with individuals assessing that behavior or even that appearance and acting as they see fit. I only see a problem when that assessment is based solely on something the person can't control, such as skin color. 

And, fwiw, I think you are misusing white privilege in this case. 

[djAdvocate]