gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Feb 21, 2016 10:01:56 GMT -5
Old Coyootie,
Gunnutters case in point: Yes. If it proves to be profitable, machine guns should be sold at WalMart if they choose to sell them. Yes Walmart could sell machine guns in their store as long as they were selling to persons that hold class three permits. Only the ones produced before 1986.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Feb 21, 2016 17:32:16 GMT -5
Anyone that whines about background checks for gun purchases is OK with the criminal and crazy element being able to acquire weapons at those outlets that don't require them. That must now be part of their 1st (2nd) amendment...The right of criminals to easily purchase weapons to use in crimes shall not be infringed!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Feb 21, 2016 18:29:01 GMT -5
There is the easy solution Don, Go after the criminals, see how easy that was.
Not the law biding, citizen!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2016 19:54:27 GMT -5
There is the easy solution Don, Go after the criminals, see how easy that was. Not the law biding, citizen! And you know the best way to do that? BACKGROUND CHECKS so they can't buy them (legally). Stop them from getting guns in the first place (or at least make it harder).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2016 19:55:49 GMT -5
Name another constitutional right in which you have to pass a background check and pay a fee to take part in. Name another Constitutional Right whereby the Government gives you the easy ability to kill someone else.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Feb 21, 2016 21:37:07 GMT -5
There is the easy solution Don, Go after the criminals, see how easy that was. Not the law biding, citizen! And you know the best way to do that? BACKGROUND CHECKS so they can't buy them (legally). Stop them from getting guns in the first place (or at least make it harder). Nope. The best way to deal with criminals is swift, sure, and severe punishment for violent crimes.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Feb 21, 2016 21:37:45 GMT -5
Name another constitutional right in which you have to pass a background check and pay a fee to take part in. Name another Constitutional Right whereby the Government gives you the easy ability to kill someone else. Voting.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Feb 21, 2016 22:00:46 GMT -5
I read somewhere, that an estimated 40% of gun sales do not go through a gun dealer or so called gun show.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2016 23:06:27 GMT -5
Name another Constitutional Right whereby the Government gives you the easy ability to kill someone else. Voting. Hmmmm. Funny. I can't remember ever hearing of a single ballot EVER killing anyone. Not one single report. Nor any reports of anyone ever being killed by an individual using a voting machine for it's intended purpose. What reports have you heard?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2016 23:09:39 GMT -5
And you know the best way to do that? BACKGROUND CHECKS so they can't buy them (legally). Stop them from getting guns in the first place (or at least make it harder). Nope. The best way to deal with criminals is swift, sure, and severe punishment for violent crimes. That's the best way to PUNISH them once they've already committed the criminal act. Better than punishment though is for the criminal act to never happen... and "never happen" can occur if they are prevented from getting guns in the first place. Now... how do we stop them from (or at least hamper their ability of) getting guns in the first place? Oh yeah... that's right. Background checks... so the dealer isn't selling them to criminals.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Feb 22, 2016 16:03:09 GMT -5
Voting. Hmmmm. Funny. I can't remember ever hearing of a single ballot EVER killing anyone. Not one single report. Nor any reports of anyone ever being killed by an individual using a voting machine for it's intended purpose. What reports have you heard? Let's see a link to a story of a gun killing anyone. I've seen numerous accounts of a person using a gun to kill someone, but never a gun doing it by it's self.
By the same token, with your vote, you can help elect a politician who sends your children off to war to be killed, or funds an abortion clinic, supports the death penalty, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2016 18:35:54 GMT -5
Hmmmm. Funny. I can't remember ever hearing of a single ballot EVER killing anyone. Not one single report. Nor any reports of anyone ever being killed by an individual using a voting machine for it's intended purpose. What reports have you heard? Let's see a link to a story of a gun killing anyone. I've seen numerous accounts of a person using a gun to kill someone, but never a gun doing it by it's self.
By the same token, with your vote, you can help elect a politician who sends your children off to war to be killed, or funds an abortion clinic, supports the death penalty, etc.
o.k. you got me on the ballot one. I agree that guns don't kill people... people do. How about you show me a person killing someone with a ballot then? You are REAAAALLLLLY stretching on this... why? If you vote for someone and that candidate actually wins (I have no experience with this... because I only bote for QUALIFIED people... and they never win), then IF that person sends people into danger it's not YOU that did it. It's "the maority that elected them" (of which you ar but a small cog in the machine that elected them). If, on the other hand, you PERSONALLY use a gun for it's intended purpose, then YOU (and ONLY you) are the one that killed/injured someone. No one else had a hand in it... just YOU. Now... can we get away from "guns = votes"... because they really don't.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2016 20:08:44 GMT -5
And good- give me one reason gun purchases along with serial numbers should not be registered into a database. The old 'gun confiscation' argument has proven fantasy so why hamstring the police? This isn't seatbelts- and guns should be controlled- why not? You think they should sell machine guns at Walmart? where and when was it "proven fantasy"? It seems there are several cases (some more recent than others) of police using registration to confiscate guns.
Do you have examples where they've required registration and NOT confiscated guns?
Links please... I can't think of a single report of that ever happening to law abiding gun owners. For the record, all my guns are registered. None of them have been confiscated (by the state, I voluntarily store them "away from the house" though... because I don't have a gun safe, but I do have an irresponsible 12 year old).
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 22, 2016 22:13:11 GMT -5
where and when was it "proven fantasy"? It seems there are several cases (some more recent than others) of police using registration to confiscate guns.
Do you have examples where they've required registration and NOT confiscated guns?
Links please... I can't think of a single report of that ever happening to law abiding gun owners. For the record, all my guns are registered. None of them have been confiscated (by the state, I voluntarily store them "away from the house" though... because I don't have a gun safe, but I do have an irresponsible 12 year old). Read about the laws in NY state. Upon a person's death, the police have the right to confiscate weapons if there is no CWP holder in the house (which is phenomenally difficult to get in NY). I ran into this situation myself last year when my dad died. NYS does not recognize any CWP other than NY (even though I carry for WA and my sister carries for MN), and even though dad's guns were willed to me and my sister, we had to secret them out of NY. We could not go through a FFL to send them home, like we *should* have been able to do (because we could not travel with them in NY TO a FFL without a FFL). The only advantage we had was that both of us flew into and out of Burlington VT, and we were able to check them through when we left the state. Fortunately, if you have proof that you are passing through NY state, you can travel with them. However, had either of us flown into an airport in NY state we would not have been able to fly with them. Whether or not actual confiscation has started or not, I don't know. However, the intent is there and as some of the guns that we had were antiques, belonging to my great grandfather, I really didn't want to risk the fact that my inheritance was going to be confiscated. www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/17/deceased-gun-owners-ny-law_n_6173488.html
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2016 22:21:55 GMT -5
That's a messed up law.
ETA: But... even then... they aren't confiscating guns from living people. (the fact that it was willed in violation of the law, and the idiocy of the law notwithstanding). The dead usually don't care what you do with their stuff once they are... you know... dead.
Currently, dead people don't have the right to keep and bear arms in New York. I can live with the dead not being allowed to have guns.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 22, 2016 22:45:59 GMT -5
They can confiscate from the estate. My dad probably had about $5000 (conservatively, that is just what I took) in firearms that were left to us in his will. So yes, they could be confiscated from live people.
The problem is that NY does not recognize CWP from any other states, so the 4 days we were there, there were 2 of them in the house. But as neither of us are NY residents, we had no standing with regards to my dad's firearms.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Feb 23, 2016 0:35:29 GMT -5
You 'called me out' so here is why I 'liked' Richards post: I voluntarily store them "away from the house" though... because I don't have a gun safe, but I do have an irresponsible 12 year old).
Happy now?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2016 19:05:27 GMT -5
They can confiscate from the estate. My dad probably had about $5000 (conservatively, that is just what I took) in firearms that were left to us in his will. So yes, they could be confiscated from live people. The problem is that NY does not recognize CWP from any other states, so the 4 days we were there, there were 2 of them in the house. But as neither of us are NY residents, we had no standing with regards to my dad's firearms. They were confiscated from the dead person. The person they were willed to (in violation of the law) never had a LEGAL right possession of them. I mean... someone could will me their stash of heroin... doesn't mean I have a legal right to it just "because it was willed to me". If that's the law in New York, they should have given away their guns BEFORE they died. Then the recipients would have them legally.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2016 19:06:38 GMT -5
Links please... I can't think of a single report of that ever happening to law abiding gun owners. For the record, all my guns are registered. None of them have been confiscated (by the state, I voluntarily store them "away from the house" though... because I don't have a gun safe, but I do have an irresponsible 12 year old). WHOA! and i'll call out the two who "liked" your post too.
YOU made a statement. YOU back it up. Go ahead. Surely, surely, you can name a couple of places that have gun registration, but have not later used that to confiscate. YOU made that statement, so easy to show a couple of examples, eh?
You do that, and i'll then provide the counters, but you made the statement, you back it up.
There's no way to provide a link to something that DIDN'T happen.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Feb 23, 2016 19:37:22 GMT -5
where and when was it "proven fantasy"? It seems there are several cases (some more recent than others) of police using registration to confiscate guns.
Do you have examples where they've required registration and NOT confiscated guns?
Links please... I can't think of a single report of that ever happening to law abiding gun owners. For the record, all my guns are registered. None of them have been confiscated (by the state, I voluntarily store them "away from the house" though... because I don't have a gun safe, but I do have an irresponsible 12 year old). Perhaps the nut didn't fall too far from the tree. I also have a 12 year old, but I'd call him anything but irresponsible. He doesn't bother my guns. He has a quite nice collection of his own already.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 23, 2016 19:54:59 GMT -5
They can confiscate from the estate. My dad probably had about $5000 (conservatively, that is just what I took) in firearms that were left to us in his will. So yes, they could be confiscated from live people. The problem is that NY does not recognize CWP from any other states, so the 4 days we were there, there were 2 of them in the house. But as neither of us are NY residents, we had no standing with regards to my dad's firearms. They were confiscated from the dead person. The person they were willed to (in violation of the law) never had a LEGAL right possession of them. I mean... someone could will me their stash of heroin... doesn't mean I have a legal right to it just "because it was willed to me". If that's the law in New York, they should have given away their guns BEFORE they died. Then the recipients would have them legally. How do you figure that they were not my guns? Had me dad been capable of getting to an FFL in his last days of life, they would have been transferred legally. As I am not a resident on NY, it is impossible for me to be a legal gun owner in that state. However, I AM a CWP holder in the state of WA, which makes me legal in my home and had my dad been alive, him sending them to me (in accordance with his will) would have been perfectly legal. If you know when you are going to die, then good for you. 2 weeks before dad died he was at the range shooting. Most people don't have that luxury.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2016 19:55:08 GMT -5
There's no way to provide a link to something that DIDN'T happen. let's go back to science class.
you're correct, you can't prove a negative. however, I asked for a couple of examples. really, you can't come up with any.
you basically said that registration never leads to confiscation. I gave you the most favorable response, which is give my any cases where registration hasn't led to confiscation, and you can't/won't provide it
I can't prove it because you can't prove a negative. There are no articles about "Mr Smith registered his guns, and the Government DIDN'T confiscate them". New York was provided as an example of where it supposedly happens... yet... it actually doesn't because they aren't confiscated from anyone that LEGALLY owns them. Here's the relevant New York law: Please note the bolded. Contrary to the previous assertion, firearms that are removed pursuant to this law are actually NOT "confiscated" as many would use the word (taken forever and never returned). They are held until either the person they are willed to is confirmed as someone that can legally possess firearms (note the underlined) OR a year passes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2016 20:00:23 GMT -5
Links please... I can't think of a single report of that ever happening to law abiding gun owners. For the record, all my guns are registered. None of them have been confiscated (by the state, I voluntarily store them "away from the house" though... because I don't have a gun safe, but I do have an irresponsible 12 year old). Perhaps the nut didn't fall too far from the tree.I also have a 12 year old, but I'd call him anything but irresponsible. He doesn't bother my guns. He has a quite nice collection of his own already. LOL... you've got jokes! He's actually a grandchild of no blood relation to me, that my WIFE is controlling how he's being raised over my personal objections (but as he's blood to her and not me... it's a reasonable allowance to let her make the decisions for he's to be raised). And considering his mother... you are probably correct about the distance of fall. Trust me... if her were raised by my rules from birth... he'd be responsible. He'd've had the same rules I had growing up. And also as I did and as you say your 12 year old does... he'd likely have a collection of his own by now as well (because he'd be responsible).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2016 20:01:50 GMT -5
They were confiscated from the dead person. The person they were willed to (in violation of the law) never had a LEGAL right possession of them. I mean... someone could will me their stash of heroin... doesn't mean I have a legal right to it just "because it was willed to me". If that's the law in New York, they should have given away their guns BEFORE they died. Then the recipients would have them legally. How do you figure that they were not my guns? Had me dad been capable of getting to an FFL in his last days of life, they would have been transferred legally. As I am not a resident on NY, it is impossible for me to be a legal gun owner in that state. However, I AM a CWP holder in the state of WA, which makes me legal in my home and had my dad been alive, him sending them to me (in accordance with his will) would have been perfectly legal. If you know when you are going to die, then good for you. 2 weeks before dad died he was at the range shooting. Most people don't have that luxury. You might want to take a look at my post #175... the actual law, as it exists, might clear up a few things for you.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 23, 2016 20:02:50 GMT -5
let's go back to science class.
you're correct, you can't prove a negative. however, I asked for a couple of examples. really, you can't come up with any.
you basically said that registration never leads to confiscation. I gave you the most favorable response, which is give my any cases where registration hasn't led to confiscation, and you can't/won't provide it
I can't prove it because you can't prove a negative. There are no articles about "Mr Smith registered his guns, and the Government DIDN'T confiscate them". New York was provided as an example of where it supposedly happens... yet... it actually doesn't because they aren't confiscated from anyone that LEGALLY owns them. Here's the relevant New York law: Please note the bolded. Contrary to the previous assertion, firearms that are removed pursuant to this law are actually NOT "confiscated" as many would use the word (taken forever and never returned). They are held until either the person they are willed to is confirmed as someone that can legally possess firearms (note the underlined) OR a year passes. Yeah, right. It is not unheard of when you get a weapon confiscated that it becomes very difficult to get it back. I have heard of some where their weapon was confiscated, and it was a battle to get them back. What you don't seem to get is that I can possess a weapon in WA. But if you are not a NY resident, you cannot legally have a gun. NY has reciprocity with NO ONE. However, I am not a NY resident
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2016 20:09:23 GMT -5
I can't prove it because you can't prove a negative. There are no articles about "Mr Smith registered his guns, and the Government DIDN'T confiscate them". New York was provided as an example of where it supposedly happens... yet... it actually doesn't because they aren't confiscated from anyone that LEGALLY owns them. Here's the relevant New York law: Please note the bolded. Contrary to the previous assertion, firearms that are removed pursuant to this law are actually NOT "confiscated" as many would use the word (taken forever and never returned). They are held until either the person they are willed to is confirmed as someone that can legally possess firearms (note the underlined) OR a year passes. Yeah, right. It is not unheard of when you get a weapon confiscated that it becomes very difficult to get it back. I have heard of some where their weapon was confiscated, and it was a battle to get them back. What you don't seem to get is that I can possess a weapon in WA. But if you are not a NY resident, you cannot legally have a gun. NY has reciprocity with NO ONE. However, I am not a NY resident The State Police " shall deliver". If you are legally allowed pursuant to WA law... then you fit the criteria of " provided such named person is licensed to or is otherwise lawfully permitted to possess the same". They could ship it to you via a FFL dealer in Washington State (it would be COD probably though). Note that there's no reference to the recipient being required to be a New York resident. There may be some hoops to jump through... but it's still possible to get the guns from someone that dies in New York... contrary to your previous assertion. If (for whatever reason) The State of New York doesn't abide by it's own law, then the rightful heir would have a legitimate case against them for a lawsuit.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 23, 2016 20:18:21 GMT -5
Yeah, right. Would you really want to have to sue NY state?
It is best to try to avoid the problems altogether.
BTW....we DID contact a local FFL to try to get the guns shipped. There was a question as to whether he could legally ship something I would be mailing from NY under my CWP to my FFL in WA and turned me down.
My choice was to let the state police mail them to me? LOL! Let me offer you a bridge I have for sale. If the police took the guns, that would be the last I'd see of them. If you believe otherwise, you are incredibly naive.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Feb 23, 2016 20:24:26 GMT -5
Yeah, right. It is not unheard of when you get a weapon confiscated that it becomes very difficult to get it back. I have heard of some where their weapon was confiscated, and it was a battle to get them back. What you don't seem to get is that I can possess a weapon in WA. But if you are not a NY resident, you cannot legally have a gun. NY has reciprocity with NO ONE. However, I am not a NY resident The State Police " shall deliver". If you are legally allowed pursuant to WA law... then you fit the criteria of " provided such named person is licensed to or is otherwise lawfully permitted to possess the same". They could ship it to you via a FFL dealer in Washington State (it would be COD probably though). Note that there's no reference to the recipient being required to be a New York resident. There may be some hoops to jump through... but it's still possible to get the guns from someone that dies in New York... contrary to your previous assertion. If (for whatever reason) The State of New York doesn't abide by it's own law, then the rightful heir would have a legitimate case against them for a lawsuit. I assume you don't consider any of this "infringement" either? Two questions: 1)Could you provide us with your definition of infringement? 2)How do you figure any of this crap makes you any safer?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 23, 2016 20:49:57 GMT -5
ote that there's no reference to the recipient being required to be a New York resident. There may be some hoops to jump through... but it's still possible to get the guns from someone that dies in New York... contrary to your previous assertion.
We needed someone with a CWP IN NY to mail them. You don't seem to understand that this is the issue, not mailing them to someone with a CWP from WA.
As my dad was dead, he wasn't mailing them. Both me and my sister had CWP from our respective states, but that was unacceptable to the NY FFL. My stepmom doesn't have a CWP, nor did any of her family which is understandable, as a CWP is VERY difficult to get in NY.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2016 20:54:46 GMT -5
Yeah, right. Would you really want to have to sue NY state? It is best to try to avoid the problems altogether. BTW.... we DID contact a local FFL to try to get the guns shipped. There was a question as to whether he could legally ship something I would be mailing from NY under my CWP to my FFL in WA and turned me down.My choice was to let the state police mail them to me? LOL! Let me offer you a bridge I have for sale. If the police took the guns, that would be the last I'd see of them. If you believe otherwise, you are incredibly naive. I didn't suggest YOU should have mailed them. They were right to turn you down. You didn't have legal standing TO ship them... even to yourself... because they weren't LEGALLY yours in the first place (According to New York law). If you think the State wants lawsuits that it can easily avoid... you are the naive one.
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