mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 20, 2016 19:38:51 GMT -5
Well my mutilated boobs think you should take a rest cause they don't need you to think about them at all. mutilate/mutilation: deform, degrade in appearance, disfigure, mangle... I hear a lot of judgement there. As much as I hear in words like bizarre and lunacy. I think it's perfectly ok to not understand, or not choose this, and not know what you would do in the situation. I thought Tequila did a nice job of showing how a person can be uncomfortable with something, not necessarily agreeing, but refrain from being disparaging. Your posts in this thread show a lot of personal insecurity. I like you, oped. Like yourself for who you are and don't be so defensive. You, greg, are not a medical professional. You are not qualified to diagnose mental/emotional illness in others. On this board, you will not continue to do so. If you do,, your posts will be removed. If it then continues, it's possible you could be removed. Discuss the subjecct, not the other posters about whom you know very little, if anything. mmhmm, Administrator
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justme
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Post by justme on Jan 20, 2016 19:40:45 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 19:47:51 GMT -5
It isn't rare Virgil. She said its about as common as having red hair.
Its nice of you guys to give honeysalt 'a pass'. She was able to provide you with an unambiguous (ironically) visible physical manifestation so that you could officially 'approve' of her decisions. It doesn't matter that she was pretty clear that there are many physical issues which are not visibly manifest. It doesn't matter that she gives you examples of people who are in this situation who do not have visible physical manifestations of the condition... who do not know for a long time that they even have the condition.
It doesn't matter that people post information and studies that show that transgender people also demonstrate physical differences, as long as there isn't a visible physical manifestation that you can 'approve'... then THOSE people, are just crazy.
So, the people on this board (and in life who you must know, even if you don't realize) who are dealing with transgender, who have a spouse who has transitioned, who have children who are transitioning, who have brothers and sisters and other relatives who are transitioning... they are all just supporting lunacy, and should better just be told/tell their loved ones that they are only the sum total of their genital organs, who should lose the support of their friends if they tolerate the situation, should be ready for people to offer up all kinds of opinions about how bizarre they are and ask them why they would want to mutilate themselves...
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honeysalt
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Post by honeysalt on Jan 20, 2016 19:48:51 GMT -5
honeysalt I think you are an example of what I was saying about not mutilating your body. You are what you are and didn't do any more to your body than medically necessary. I think that medically unnecessary genital surgery done on infants and small children is mutilation. It often leaves them with horrific consequences just so they look normal. Or, at least, the goal of looking normal. I think that adults should do everything they can to avoid surgery while maintaining their quality of life. My dad had back surgery. I encouraged him to do everything he could to avoid surgery with non-surgical intervention. He did, but in the end, surgery was necessary for his quality of life. There is someone in an intersexed community I belong to that has a very large clitoris. Unfortunately, she didn't have the good luck I did with men. Her partners shamed her and she couldn't relax and enjoy her body during sex, so she didn't orgasm. She tried therapy and body acceptance exercises to no avail. Eventually, she decided to have it reduced. Did she lose sensation? Yes, but she gained confidence and acceptance of who she was and eventually had a satisfying sex life. Even though her surgery damaged the nerve endings on part of her body, her sexual functioning as a whole improved. I would tell a Trans person the same thing as everyone else. Avoid surgery, if possible, while maintaining your quality of life. Some F-M have experience enough growth in their clitoris from T to be able to penetrate. Combined with the massive number of nerve endings, these people can have pretty fantastic sexual experiences. Others can't and may find that surgery improves their quality of life. ETA: Do you consider circumcision mutilation? It isn't medically necessary and decreases functioning. I am not trying to be ornery or bait your here at all. The way society views circumcision is just very interesting to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 19:48:58 GMT -5
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 20, 2016 19:50:34 GMT -5
It isn't rare Virgil. She said its about as common as having red hair.
Its nice of you guys to give honeysalt 'a pass'. She was able to provide you with an unambiguous (ironically) visible physical manifestation so that you could officially 'approve' of her decisions. It doesn't matter that she was pretty clear that there are many physical issues which are not visibly manifest. It doesn't matter that she gives you examples of people who are in this situation who do not have visible physical manifestations of the condition... who do not know for a long time that they even have the condition.
It doesn't matter that people post information and studies that show that transgender people also demonstrate physical differences, as long as there isn't a visible physical manifestation that you can 'approve'... then THOSE people, are just crazy.
So, the people on this board (and in life who you must know, even if you don't realize) who are dealing with transgender, who have a spouse who has transitioned, who have children who are transitioning, who have brothers and sisters and other relatives who are transitioning... they are all just supporting lunacy, and should better just be told/tell their loved ones that they are only the sum total of their genital organs, who should lose the support of their friends if they tolerate the situation, should be ready for people to offer up all kinds of opinions about how bizarre they are and ask them why they would want to mutilate themselves... Yeah...pretty much. Believe it or not, people can have an opinion that differs from yours.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 20, 2016 19:52:06 GMT -5
You've been gone a long time Greg. I'm sure you didn't realize that there are many people here who live with and love people who are and have dealt with these very real issues. But then, I'd guess you also run in to many people in your regular life who are also. You just never know it, nor know what impact your words might have on them. I'm guessing most of them aren't likely to confide when your immediate response is not to listen or consider, but to offer disparaging descriptions and pass judgement. We are so lucky to have people here willing to share candidly. I respect them very much. Someone who was born with ambiguous genitalia is very, very different from some odd guy who wakes up one day and decides to become a woman. Not really. Can you see the actions of hormones in your body? Can you see the synapses firing in your brain? No, you cannot. How one's body performs its internal functions is not visible to someone just observing the person in question. You can't identify someone with diabetes by looking at them; yet, their body functions differently than yours (unless you're a diabetic). Gender identity depends on more than just external genitalia. Transgenders don't just "wake up one day and decide". The function of their bodies makes that decision for them. Many spend far too long trying to match the inner functions to the outer appearance and fail in their efforts.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 20, 2016 19:52:56 GMT -5
You . . . are not a medical professional. You are not qualified to diagnose mental/emotional illness in others. On this board, you will not continue to do so. If you do, your posts will be removed. If it then continues, it's possible you could be removed. Discuss the subjecct, not the other posters about whom you know very little, if anything. mmhmm, Administrator Would you please tell this to Virgil too? His judgmental language is no different than greg's . . . .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 19:53:44 GMT -5
Well Greg, this pretty much solidifies my opinion of you...
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 20, 2016 19:54:14 GMT -5
You . . . are not a medical professional. You are not qualified to diagnose mental/emotional illness in others. On this board, you will not continue to do so. If you do, your posts will be removed. If it then continues, it's possible you could be removed. Discuss the subjecct, not the other posters about whom you know very little, if anything. mmhmm, Administrator Would you please tell this to Virgil too? His judgmental language is no different than greg's . . . . There's more than enough judgmental language to go around in this thread.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 20, 2016 19:57:00 GMT -5
Well Greg, this pretty much solidifies my opinion of you... Fair enough.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 20, 2016 19:57:56 GMT -5
Someone who was born with ambiguous genitalia is very, very different from some odd guy who wakes up one day and decides to become a woman. Not really. Can you see the actions of hormones in your body? Can you see the synapses firing in your brain? No, you cannot. How one's body performs its internal functions is not visible to someone just observing the person in question. You can't identify someone with diabetes by looking at them; yet, their body functions differently than yours (unless you're a diabetic). Gender identity depends on more than just external genitalia. Transgenders don't just "wake up one day and decide". The function of their bodies makes that decision for them. Many spend far too long trying to match the inner functions to the outer appearance and fail in their efforts. Are you perchance a medical professional?
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 20, 2016 19:58:50 GMT -5
Not really. Can you see the actions of hormones in your body? Can you see the synapses firing in your brain? No, you cannot. How one's body performs its internal functions is not visible to someone just observing the person in question. You can't identify someone with diabetes by looking at them; yet, their body functions differently than yours (unless you're a diabetic). Gender identity depends on more than just external genitalia. Transgenders don't just "wake up one day and decide". The function of their bodies makes that decision for them. Many spend far too long trying to match the inner functions to the outer appearance and fail in their efforts. Are you perchance a medical professional? She is a nurse (maybe even a master's-level one?)
ETA: nurses are WELL QUALIFIED to educate patients (and the families, AND the public) about their conditions and how to care for themselves and others who have that condition. Patient and caregiver education is one of the PRIMARY functions of a nurse.
So yeah, she is well qualified . . .
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 20, 2016 20:01:08 GMT -5
You . . . are not a medical professional. You are not qualified to diagnose mental/emotional illness in others. On this board, you will not continue to do so. If you do, your posts will be removed. If it then continues, it's possible you could be removed. Discuss the subjecct, not the other posters about whom you know very little, if anything. mmhmm, Administrator Would you please tell this to Virgil too? His judgmental language is no different than greg's . . . . Virgil seems to be reading the thread so I hope he's read your responses and those of people like raeoflyte and honeysalt who have far more concrete knowledge than I shall ever have! I've only had one patient who was transgendered. I learned from that patient much that the books never taught me and will always be grateful. While no minds may be changed by what's posted here, I think it's important to get as much reality out in the open as we can. I thank everyone for efforts to keep this discussion civil and, hopefully, enlightening.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2016 20:01:51 GMT -5
This all still boils down to a difference of opinion about something. So again, we all either need to be on the "right" side of the discussion or we're all despicable human beings.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 20, 2016 20:02:10 GMT -5
Not really. Can you see the actions of hormones in your body? Can you see the synapses firing in your brain? No, you cannot. How one's body performs its internal functions is not visible to someone just observing the person in question. You can't identify someone with diabetes by looking at them; yet, their body functions differently than yours (unless you're a diabetic). Gender identity depends on more than just external genitalia. Transgenders don't just "wake up one day and decide". The function of their bodies makes that decision for them. Many spend far too long trying to match the inner functions to the outer appearance and fail in their efforts. Are you perchance a medical professional? I am, yes. I'm a nurse practioner, now retired.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 20, 2016 20:03:17 GMT -5
This all still boils down to a difference of opinion about something. So again, we all either need to be on the "right" side of the discussion or we're all despicable human beings. Wait! Who's a despicable human being? I haven't seen any of those here! I think the ToS bans those right off the bat!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 20:03:44 GMT -5
This all still boils down to a difference of opinion about something. So again, we all either need to be on the "right" side of the discussion or we're all despicable human beings. Again, several people managed to say they disagree, don't understand the issue, don't have the vaguest idea what they would do.... Without using disparaging language.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 20, 2016 20:06:08 GMT -5
Are you perchance a medical professional? I am, yes. I'm a nurse practioner, now retired. So gregintenn, this is even a higher level nurse than a master's prepared one. NP's can - within a defined Scope of Practice - make diagnoses and prescribe treatment.
I think she knows what she's talking about . . .
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 20, 2016 20:06:11 GMT -5
Are you perchance a medical professional? She is a nurse (maybe even a master's-level one?)
ETA: nurses are WELL QUALIFIED to educate patients (and the families, AND the public) about their conditions and how to care for themselves and others who have that condition. Patient and caregiver education is one of the PRIMARY functions of a nurse.
So yeah, she is well qualified . . .
My mother is also a nurse, and I don't believe she knows anything at all about this subject. She probably isn't the right sort of nurse, however. *edit* mmhmm is a nurse practitioner. That is a much more highly trIned profession than a nurse.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 20, 2016 20:06:44 GMT -5
This all still boils down to a difference of opinion about something. So again, we all either need to be on the "right" side of the discussion or we're all despicable human beings. Again, several people managed to say they disagree, don't understand the issue, don't have the vaguest idea wha they would do.... Without using disparaging language.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 20, 2016 20:09:33 GMT -5
This all still boils down to a difference of opinion about something. So again, we all either need to be on the "right" side of the discussion or we're all despicable human beings. Wait! Who's a despicable human being? I haven't seen any of those here! I think the ToS bans those right off the bat! I think all the arrows point to me.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 20, 2016 20:11:11 GMT -5
She is a nurse (maybe even a master's-level one?)
ETA: nurses are WELL QUALIFIED to educate patients (and the families, AND the public) about their conditions and how to care for themselves and others who have that condition. Patient and caregiver education is one of the PRIMARY functions of a nurse.
So yeah, she is well qualified . . .
My mother is also a nurse, and I don't believe she knows anything at all about this subject. She probably isn't the right sort of nurse, however. Much depends on the nurse's scope of practice, level of education, and areas of practice. Over the years I worked ICU, CCU, CVICU, ER, Psych, and served as a hospitalist. I've worked with doctors from all specialties. It was a great career and I loved it! Tell your mom thanks for joining the ranks and I do hope she receives as much pleasure and reward from her service as I did from mine.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 20, 2016 20:12:29 GMT -5
Wait! Who's a despicable human being? I haven't seen any of those here! I think the ToS bans those right off the bat! I think all the arrows point to me. Can't be. ProBoards' ToS would have zapped you at the door!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 20, 2016 20:15:46 GMT -5
This all still boils down to a difference of opinion about something. So again, we all either need to be on the "right" side of the discussion or we're all despicable human beings. You are not new here.....you know how things go.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 20:22:50 GMT -5
You can't tell the difference between this:
Miss Tequila Avatar Jan 19, 2016 19:36:12 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said: Good lord, I don't know how a spiuse could accept that. Granted, Im old fashioned and would have a hard time accepting anyone transitioning let alone my spouse. I am pretty sure I would have to divorce if he cut off his penis...the penis is the only saving grace of a man!lol
For the friend, I would just be there and try not to interject my opinion. I honestly have no idea what I would even say to the wife
You are a good friend. Best of luck to you
And this:
gregintenn Avatar Jan 19, 2016 20:36:11 GMT -5 gregintenn said: Why would you feel the need to support such lunacy? (etc)
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 20, 2016 20:24:31 GMT -5
Are you perchance a medical professional? I am, yes. I'm a nurse practioner, now retired. My wife and I have a friend who's a nurse practitioner. She's who I always visit in lieu of a Doctor. She makes a very good living, even in our small town.
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honeysalt
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Post by honeysalt on Jan 20, 2016 20:24:38 GMT -5
You've been gone a long time Greg. I'm sure you didn't realize that there are many people here who live with and love people who are and have dealt with these very real issues. But then, I'd guess you also run in to many people in your regular life who are also. You just never know it, nor know what impact your words might have on them. I'm guessing most of them aren't likely to confide when your immediate response is not to listen or consider, but to offer disparaging descriptions and pass judgement. We are so lucky to have people here willing to share candidly. I respect them very much. Someone who was born with ambiguous genitalia is very, very different from some odd guy who wakes up one day and decides to become a woman. First of all, thank you for being open to hearing my story. I really appreciate it. Second of all, I think there are a lot of similarities between my story and anyone in the LGBT community. I was born sexually different. No choice there. I believe that is the case for everyone in my community, the LGBT community. I am guessing you disagree, which is completely okay. Actually, it makes it really fun and interesting to read your views. However, I have chosen to identify as an intersexed person. Not all of the time or with everyone, but it is an identity that I have chosen. Many people born with physical differences like me choose to be labeled with a Disorder of Sexual Development, do not identify as intersexed, and also identify as straight males or females. I don't see how I can really be straight since I am not really a woman or a man. Similarly, some people who are born gay choose to identify and lead lives that reconcile with how they were born and what they naturally feel. Others choose to identify as straight in spite of how they were born and what they naturally feel. Note that I am not saying people can choose their sexual orientation, I don't think anyone chooses to be born sexually different any more than anyone chooses to be born with brown eyes. People can and do choose their sexual identity. Both come with a cost. I have known men in their fifties filled with regret that they lived their lives as straight men with wives. I have met out gay people that lament how they have been rejected and discriminated against. Being who you authentically are feels good. I wouldn't want to do anything else with my limited years. I commend Trans people who have the courage to live authentically in a way that people don't understand or expect. As confusing as my path has been, theirs is much harder. When the choice is be who you really are or who other people expect you to be, I think the better choice is to be who you are.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 20, 2016 20:25:59 GMT -5
You can't tell the difference between this:
Miss Tequila Avatar Jan 19, 2016 19:36:12 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said: Good lord, I don't know how a spiuse could accept that. Granted, Im old fashioned and would have a hard time accepting anyone transitioning let alone my spouse. I am pretty sure I would have to divorce if he cut off his penis...the penis is the only saving grace of a man!lol
For the friend, I would just be there and try not to interject my opinion. I honestly have no idea what I would even say to the wife
You are a good friend. Best of luck to you
And this:
gregintenn Avatar Jan 19, 2016 20:36:11 GMT -5 gregintenn said: Why would you feel the need to support such lunacy? (etc) I should have added "give the friend a great big comforting hug" to the end of my post?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 20, 2016 20:26:28 GMT -5
I am, yes. I'm a nurse practioner, now retired. My wife and I have a friend who's a nurse practitioner. She's who I always visit in lieu of a Doctor. She makes a very good living, even in our small town. I miss my patients now that I've retired. I still hear from some of them from time to time. It's a good field in so many ways. A lot of variety.
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