Is Abigail Fisher for real?

[TheHaitian]

www.salon.com/2015/12/09/abigail_fisher_deserves_an_f_for_her_race_baiting_supreme_court_case_aimed_at_boosting_subpar_white_students/


Just no words

[MarleyKeezy78]

She sounds like a whiney little buttmunch doesn't she.

[TheHaitian]

I wonder why she doesn't go after the whites that also got in:

"It’s true that the university, for whatever reason, offered provisional admission to some students with lower test scores and grades than Fisher. Five of those students were black or Latino. Forty-two were white."

But the blacks and Latinos are the ones that took her spot!

[haapai]

I'm always a bit gobsmacked by how unimpressive the plaintiffs in these cases are.  I also can't recall a male lead plaintiff since Baake.  Funny, isn't it, how it appears to be easier to get someone who expects to change their surname to be a plaintiff in such a case? 

[verrip1]

I read the link.  The race baiter is Amanda Marcotte, not Abigail Fisher. 

[Robert not Bobby]

I am so sick of this issue.

What matters is intelligence, whether you are black, white or purple.

Merit is all that should matter. If you are a  black kid with a mediocre mind, you shouldn't get into Harvard, just because you are black. Reverse discrimination...

It is pretty simple to me

[billisonboard]

Dec 11, 2015 14:15:32 GMT -5 Robert not Bobby said:

I am so sick of this issue.

What matters is intelligence, whether you are black, white or purple.

Merit is all that should matter. If you are a  black kid with a mediocre mind, you shouldn't get into Harvard, just because you are black. Reverse discrimination...

It is pretty simple to me

You seem to contradict yourself. You state "intelligence" then "(m)erit" then quality of mind. Merit does not equal intelligence nor quality of mind.

So if "intelligence" is what matters, how should admissions be determined? Should it be independently administered Stanford-Binet IQ Tests given to each applicant and base the decision on that score?

[Deleted]

She was recruited to do this by one of her dad's friends. It wasn't her idea.

[Robert not Bobby]

Dec 11, 2015 14:25:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 11, 2015 14:15:32 GMT -5 Robert not Bobby said:

I am so sick of this issue.

What matters is intelligence, whether you are black, white or purple.

Merit is all that should matter. If you are a  black kid with a mediocre mind, you shouldn't get into Harvard, just because you are black. Reverse discrimination...

It is pretty simple to me

You seem to contradict yourself. You state "intelligence" then "(m)erit" then quality of mind. Merit does not equal intelligence nor quality of mind.

So if "intelligence" is what matters, how should admissions be determined? Should it be independently administered Stanford-Binet IQ Tests given to each applicant and base the decision on that score?

Bill, there are so many tests and variations...I don't want to get into it now.

We will carry on this conversation some other time...if I'm still around. Be well.

I just want to post some songs before I get out of here

[verrip1]

Dec 11, 2015 14:15:32 GMT -5 Robert not Bobby said:

I am so sick of this issue.

What matters is intelligence, whether you are black, white or purple.

Merit is all that should matter. If you are a  black kid with a mediocre mind, you shouldn't get into Harvard, just because you are black. Reverse discrimination...

It is pretty simple to me

Sometimes when one simplifies, one discards relevance.

Is the purpose of higher education to give knowledge only to the intellectually elite?  I'd say absolutely not.  Certainly the intellectual elite should be a core of focus, but making higher education available only to that elite lacks American egalitarianism.  However, to limit that egalitarianism based solely on race is wrong-headed as well.

Certainly those with the best skills demonstrated should be the largest part of the admission.  But the goal cannot be to prevent access to higher education for others.  That would be oligarchic.  The worst scenario possible for the US is generating elite classes of people.  Reward all success, but also make upward mobility available broadly.

[Robert not Bobby]

Dec 11, 2015 14:48:15 GMT -5 verrip1 said:

Dec 11, 2015 14:15:32 GMT -5 Robert not Bobby said:

I am so sick of this issue.

What matters is intelligence, whether you are black, white or purple.

Merit is all that should matter. If you are a  black kid with a mediocre mind, you shouldn't get into Harvard, just because you are black. Reverse discrimination...

It is pretty simple to me

Sometimes when one simplifies, one discards relevance.

Is the purpose of higher education to give knowledge only to the intellectually elite?  I'd say absolutely not.  Certainly the intellectual elite should be a core of focus, but making higher education available only to that elite lacks American egalitarianism.  However, to limit that egalitarianism based solely on race is wrong-headed as well.

Certainly those with the best skills demonstrated should be the largest part of the admission.  But the goal cannot be to prevent access to higher education for others.  That would be oligarchic.  The worst scenario possible for the US is generating elite classes of people.  Reward all success, but also make upward mobility available broadly.

Woah...who are you, well spoken!!!

The cream always rises to the top, whatever color you are...and others should have a chance at making a life that is respectable. I get it, sort of.

[OldCoyote]

On the other hand, if her scores had been lower than her black and Latino counterparts,  she had been given that same spot, the screams of discrimination would have been extremely loud!

Ahhh yes , because She filed for reverse discrimination, ( that is what it is) She is nothing but a white whiney bitch,  Did I get that right? 

[zibazinski]

The problem lies with some students coming from underperforming schools and aren't as prepared for the rigors of a college that demands strong achievers. So they drop out. If the schools wish to diversify, they also need to step up to the plate and help these students succeed and not in "fluff" majors that won't get them employed but make the schools record look good.

[billisonboard]

Dec 12, 2015 8:06:59 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

...
Did I get that right? 

Nope. Her scores were such that she got thrown into a selection pool that looked at factors other than just that one criterea. She didn't distinguish herself on that multiple criteria plane so wasn't admitted. She sued. That is what makes her a whiney bitch.

Oh yeah, she does happen to be white.

[OldCoyote]

My point exactly, her scores were higher but she was excluded because she was white! no other reason.  

[billisonboard]

Dec 12, 2015 8:36:25 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

My point exactly, her scores were higher but she was excluded because she was white! no other reason.  

No. Scores were used to admit the first 80%. A different criteria was used to select the final 20%. There were individuals of all races in the 80%. There were individuals of all races in the 20%. She failed to meet the criteria for either admissions group. Race was not the sole criteria of either group.

[zibazinski]

Well, U of Michigan, which prides itself on diversity, is now complaining they don't have enough minorities because enough don't qualify to get in based on their criteria. Now I don't know what that criteria is but I do know that U of M prides itself on an academic reputation. If you lower those standards, you run into students who can't handle the demand. It's a mess. I know the school DD attended for undergrad almost lost certification or whatever because they let in a lot of students who couldn't do the work and it got the school into trouble. Where do you draw the line? If you let in unqualified students then you need to be prepared to help them big time to keep up. Just admitting them isn't the answer. Or letting them skate through with degrees that will never help them in the future because they were "easy" majors. One of the things that fries my butt about athletes that get in on athletic ability then pick a major that they can pass with very little work. The chances of you getting into the pros is slim, get a degree that can get you a job.

[Deleted]

This (from the article) makes lawsuits against "Affirmative Action" perfectly justified:

Because of the school’s commitment to diversity, race and class background is also taken into consideration.

Race and class background should play NO part in admissions.



Now... since her scores weren't high enough HER lawsuit may not have any merit... unless they argue that others with scores lower than hers got in BECAUSE of the University taking race and class into consideration... which I don't believe they are doing.

It doesn't matter how many white students got in. It matters if race/class played a roll in lesser deserving students (of ANY race/class) getting in.

[billisonboard]

Dec 12, 2015 19:49:21 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

This (from the article) makes lawsuits against "Affirmative Action" perfectly justified:

Because of the school’s commitment to diversity, race and class background is also taken into consideration.

Race and class background should play NO part in admissions.



Now... since her scores weren't high enough HER lawsuit may not have any merit... unless they argue that others with scores lower than hers got in BECAUSE of the University taking race and class into consideration... which I don't believe they are doing.

It doesn't matter how many white students got in. It matters if race/class played a roll in lesser deserving students (of ANY race/class) getting in.

Lesser deserving students were not enrolled. They simply did not use a simple number criteria for a portion of those they enrolled.

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2015 20:11:40 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 12, 2015 19:49:21 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

This (from the article) makes lawsuits against "Affirmative Action" perfectly justified:
Race and class background should play NO part in admissions.



Now... since her scores weren't high enough HER lawsuit may not have any merit... unless they argue that others with scores lower than hers got in BECAUSE of the University taking race and class into consideration... which I don't believe they are doing.

It doesn't matter how many white students got in. It matters if race/class played a roll in lesser deserving students (of ANY race/class) getting in.

Lesser deserving students were not enrolled. They simply did not use a simple number criteria for a portion of those they enrolled.

"Did students with lower scores get admitted because the University took race/class into consideration... yes or no?"

That's the only question on this issue that should have any merit. And if the answer is "yes", then she was discriminated against.


However, if you look at the bolded in what I said, you'll see that I don't believe they are even arguing that point.

[billisonboard]

Dec 12, 2015 20:24:21 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Dec 12, 2015 20:11:40 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Lesser deserving students were not enrolled. They simply did not use a simple number criteria for a portion of those they enrolled.

"Did students with lower scores get admitted because the University took race/class into consideration... yes or no?"

That's the only question on this issue that should have any merit. And if the answer is "yes", then she was discriminated against.


However, if you look at the bolded in what I said, you'll see that I don't believe they are even arguing that point.

She did not meet the admissions criteria with her score. Therefore the score no longer is relevant.

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2015 22:49:28 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 12, 2015 20:24:21 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

"Did students with lower scores get admitted because the University took race/class into consideration... yes or no?"

That's the only question on this issue that should have any merit. And if the answer is "yes", then she was discriminated against.


However, if you look at the bolded in what I said, you'll see that I don't believe they are even arguing that point.

She did not meet the admissions criteria with her score. Therefore the score no longer is relevant.

You are missing the point.

"Did students with lower scores get admitted because the University took race/class into consideration... yes or no?"

Whether she made the grade spread or not is actually irrelevant... if others didn't make the grade requirements either but DID get in because the University took into consideration race/class.

I'm not arguing against the University taking into consideration other activities (like FFA or Chess Club or some other "useful subject that could have interfered with their ability to turn in assignments but showed a positive influence on community or thinking ability")... I'm only saying there's a problem if race/class was considered, in ANY way, as a determining factor.

Race/Class has no relevance when it comes to determining qualification for admittance to a University.

[billisonboard]

Dec 13, 2015 0:17:33 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Dec 12, 2015 22:49:28 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

She did not meet the admissions criteria with her score. Therefore the score no longer is relevant.

You are missing the point.

...

Race/Class has no relevance when it comes to determining qualification for admittance to a University.

It isn't a matter of missing a "point" as I don't see one. What I am doing is not accepting your pronouncement.

Nothing has inherent relevance to admitting person "x" to a university. What is used is that which has been decided upon to use as a criteria. Some admissions are based on a score, some on the ability to throw a football, an ability to dance well, multiple qualificaton criteria. I would agree if a university were to simply admit the 100 applicants with the darkest skin color or the 50 who were raised in homes with the lowest income that it would be a foolish criteria but they didn't do that. They took a pool of applicants and looked for individuals who would bring something special to their campus. I see this as no different than the pole vaulter.

[Deleted]

Dec 13, 2015 0:49:15 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 13, 2015 0:17:33 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

You are missing the point.

...

Race/Class has no relevance when it comes to determining qualification for admittance to a University.

It isn't a matter of missing a "point" as I don't see one. What I am doing is not accepting your pronouncement.

Nothing has inherent relevance to admitting person "x" to a university. What is used is that which has been decided upon to use as a criteria. Some admissions are based on a score, some on the ability to throw a football, an ability to dance well, multiple qualificaton criteria. I would agree if a university were to simply admit the 100 applicants with the darkest skin color or the 50 who were raised in homes with the lowest income that it would be a foolish criteria but they didn't do that. They took a pool of applicants and looked for individuals who would bring something special to their campus. I see this as no different than the pole vaulter.

If they used race or class as a criteria, the only "something special" that was brought was the person's race or the person's class.

Race/class is not a limiter in, nor a guarantee of, ability to throw a football.
Race/class is not a limiter in, nor a guarantee of, ability to vault over a bar (with or without a pole).
Race/class is not a limiter in, nor a guarantee of, ability to score on tests.
Race/class is not a limiter in, nor a guarantee of, ability to dance.
Race/class is not a limiter in, nor a guarantee of, ability to do anything.

Again, the relevant question is "Did students with lower scores get admitted because the University took race/class into consideration... yes or no?"
If the answer is "Yes" then a lawsuit based on that is justifiable. If the answer is "No" then it isn't. By their own admission, the University says they do take race and class into consideration. They shouldn't. Race and class is irrelevant to ability to perform academically in a University environment.

[billisonboard]

Dec 13, 2015 4:07:41 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

If they used race or class as a criteria, the only "something special" that was brought was the person's race or the person's class.

...

Race/class is not a limiter in, nor a guarantee of, ability to do anything.

...

A score, however calculated, is not a limiter in, nor a guarantee of, ability to do anything either.

If they used race/class as a sole criteria, then I would agree that it is the only thing they brought. They didn't so it wasn't.

[Deleted]

Dec 13, 2015 10:07:36 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 13, 2015 4:07:41 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

If they used race or class as a criteria, the only "something special" that was brought was the person's race or the person's class.

...

Race/class is not a limiter in, nor a guarantee of, ability to do anything.

...

A score, however calculated, is not a limiter in, nor a guarantee of, ability to do anything either.

If they used race/class as a sole criteria, then I would agree that it is the only thing they brought. They didn't so it wasn't.

Granted. However, test scores DO show ability up to the point of the test. Race and class have no bearing on test scores. One rich or poor; black, white or other, student has just as much potential as any other rich or poor; black, white or other, student.

This is a point that you just cannot defend. Race/class has no bearing on academic ability. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

[billisonboard]

Dec 13, 2015 19:19:05 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

... Race and class have no bearing on test scores. ...

SAT TEST PREP TOOLS GIVE ADVANTAGE TO STUDENTS FROM WEALTHIER FAMILIES

[billisonboard]

Dec 13, 2015 19:19:05 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

...

This is a point that you just cannot defend. Race/class has no bearing on academic ability. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Agreed. However, not all admission decisions are concerned with academic ability.

[billisonboard]

Dec 13, 2015 19:19:05 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

... Granted. However, test scores DO show ability up to the point of the test. ...

Tests do show ability to do well on tests. That ability does serve college students well and tends to be a disadvantage for those who don't possess it. I think it is a positive to allow some of those whose brains aren't wired for testing to be in college classes.

[Deleted]

Dec 13, 2015 19:28:04 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 13, 2015 19:19:05 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

... Race and class have no bearing on test scores. ...

SAT TEST PREP TOOLS GIVE ADVANTAGE TO STUDENTS FROM WEALTHIER FAMILIES

And?

That has nothing to do with the race or class of the person taking the test. A poor person has just as much ability to use prep tools (if they are made available to them) as a rich one does. And race isn't even a factor.

The "problem" that you are trying (and failing) to point out isn't solved by automatically giving poor people "bonus points" because they are poor... it's solved by giving poor people the prep tools.