Paris:the aftermath and the healing process

[Value Buy]

I realize this is Thanksgiving, and this is sort of a bummer topic, but I see hope and a chance to unite as people of humanity.


www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/after-paris-attacks-ties-that-bind-patrons-at-a-cafe-also-burn/ar-AAfFR20?li=BBnb7Kz

This is a story of the human life and travails, the inter mixing of races and religion, and the ability to see peace for humanity as a whole, in the long term, if it were not for some really terrible people.
I see it as hope for us as part of global humanity.
In the spirit of Thanksgiving, I can see the fallacy of keeping Musllm refugees out of the country.


Just not sure I can agree with bringing them here, but I understand it.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[mmhmm]

Thanks for posting a link to that article, VB. It certainly gives us all something to think about. These are courageous people who are determined to get on with their lives despite what has been so violently taken from them. That's something we all can admire. 

[Value Buy]

Hard to think about the owner and staff of this bistro, and how they loved each other and their families, and trying to put it all back together as best they can.
Nineteen killed there, and family members were Jewish and Muslim.

[Value Buy]

Our extra seat is dedicated to Paris today.
Actually, it will be the second extra seat, but we have filled the first extra seat with actual person.

[Shooby]

Living well is always the best revenge.  ISIS knows nothing about living.  The only thing they know how to do is to destroy others and even themselves.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 9:01:57 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Living well is always the best revenge.  ISIS knows nothing about living.  The only thing they know how to do is to destroy others and even themselves.

how did you get to know so much about how ISIS thinks?

[Shooby]

Nov 27, 2015 10:59:46 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 27, 2015 9:01:57 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Living well is always the best revenge.  ISIS knows nothing about living.  The only thing they know how to do is to destroy others and even themselves.

how did you get to know so much about how ISIS thinks?

Ok?

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 11:39:22 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Nov 27, 2015 10:59:46 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

how did you get to know so much about how ISIS thinks?

Ok?

seriously.  you say that ISIS wants to destroy others and themselves.  let's start out by asking: what others do they want to destroy?

do they want to destroy the Japanese?  how about Patagonians?

next question (in all seriousness): who are the leaders of ISIS and what are their strategic goals?

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

And in the words of the Ambassador of Tripoli - in 1786 - "it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet,1 that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.".

[djAdvocate]

interesting bit of history, but not an answer.  you want to try?

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

In fact, it is an answer. The exact answers to the questions you were asking. The ones who know, see it. Have a good day.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 14:29:29 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

In fact, it is an answer. The exact answers to the questions you were asking. The ones who know, see it. Have a good day.

you are right.  it is an answer.  it is just not the correct one.  and this is not a guess, btw.  the answer is well known, because they talk about it all the damned time.

anyone else want to try?

hint: if you have to guess, start out by looking at who the leadership of ISIS is.

edit: i just love the haughty tone of that reply: "those who are blind cannot see".  you'd make a fine preacher.  but i make a lousy parishioner. 

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

In fact, it is the correct one.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 14:55:55 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

In fact, it is the correct one.

no, actually, it really isn't.  ISIS has different goals than AQ, and neither of them have the goal that is implied in your ancient tome.

edit: predicted response- to again claim that i am ignorant, and that some 230 year old statement with considerable prejudice accurately portrays a 21st century situation.

hint#2: only 1/3 of the leadership of ISIS is Salafi, the rest is secular.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

In fact, the picture I posted came directly from Islamic State propaganda!!!!!!!.. and ignore that their leader is Muhammad all you want. It's not like Aisha was saying that Islam was perverted before she even died or anything..... like 1400 years ago..

Again. It is, in fact, the correct answer. But hey keep trying to convince people otherwise..

Btw, we're done because anything else I say from this point on will be censored..

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 15:34:19 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

In fact, the picture I posted came directly from Islamic State propaganda!!!!!!!.. and ignore that their leader is Muhammad all you want. It's not like Aisha was saying that Islam was perverted before she even died or anything..... like 1400 years ago..

Again. It is, in fact, the correct answer. But hey keep trying to convince people otherwise..

Btw, we're done because anything else I say from this point on will be censored..

anything that you WANT to say will be censored, because this is not a religious discussion. 

you still have not answered the question.

your 230 year old answer comes from a "founders" site (def not ISIS), and your 2015 poster doesn't answer it, either.

next?

what is the goal of ISIS?

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 16:56:51 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

ISIL has clearly stated what it's goals are. 

The First Goal is an Islamic State.  This is a physical territory that it controls, and the goal is a territory that encompasses all of the Muslim faith.

The Second Goal is adherence of all of the Muslims within the state to a "pure" and "ancient" understanding of the Islamic faith.  In furtherance of this goal, some truly nasty things need to happen.  All apostates need to be vanquished, exiled, and/ or killed.  The apocalypse must be precipitated to cripple and destroy the "moderns" on the outside so that the believers can live according to their proscribed beliefs without the distracting and corrupting influences of the outside world.  The world of the Islamic State will then live in a sort of medieval bliss. 

This is my understanding, anyway.

Even if they should achieve a modicum of success greater than they already have, I believe the same sorts of things that corrupted the Marxist Leninist regime(s) will corrupt these ideologues.  Human nature will essencially short circuit their grandiose visions.  (Otherwise known as horrific visions)  But they will obviously die trying, and unfortunately they will take a lot of innocents with them.

this is so close to the mark that i don't think it is worth contesting and nitpicking.

thanks, dem.

there are schisms within the regime, too.  it is not a completely coherent thing.  the Islamists want most of what you specified above.  there are a significant number of ex-Iraqi military in the upper ranks of ISIS that just want the West out of Iraq, and want to self govern.  and then there are miscreants from the West that want a sense of some greater purpose, and something more meaningful than working 9-5 at a Burger King for some foreign (in every sense of the term) master.  it is an amalgamation of generally conflicting ideas that come with one direct purpose- creating some sort of religious cult in the desert, basically.  it has been tried before.

with predictable results:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Nov 27, 2015 16:29:07 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 27, 2015 15:34:19 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

In fact, the picture I posted came directly from Islamic State propaganda!!!!!!!.. and ignore that their leader is Muhammad all you want. It's not like Aisha was saying that Islam was perverted before she even died or anything..... like 1400 years ago..

Again. It is, in fact, the correct answer. But hey keep trying to convince people otherwise..

Btw, we're done because anything else I say from this point on will be censored..

anything that you WANT to say will be censored, because this is not a religious discussion. 

you still have not answered the question.

your 230 year old answer comes from a "founders" site (def not ISIS), and your 2015 poster doesn't answer it, either.

next?

what is the goal of ISIS?

No, my answer comes directly from the Islamic State, again!!



Amazing that a 230 year old quote would describe EXACTLY, what I going on...

Oh and you and dem might want to look at how "poorly" things are going for the Islamic State..

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 17:33:41 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Nov 27, 2015 16:29:07 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

anything that you WANT to say will be censored, because this is not a religious discussion. 

you still have not answered the question.

your 230 year old answer comes from a "founders" site (def not ISIS), and your 2015 poster doesn't answer it, either.

next?

what is the goal of ISIS?

No, my answer comes directly from the Islamic State, again!!

the part that you posted that came from ISIS is not an answer, it is a threat.

the part that you posted that did NOT come from ISIS is not the correct answer, either.

your ROFL doesn't make your response more accurate.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 17:33:41 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Amazing that a 230 year old quote would describe EXACTLY, what I going on...

it is actually not even close, or i would have conceded that.

Oh and you and dem might want to look at how "poorly" things are going for the Islamic State..

make you a deal: as soon as you answer the question, i will look into it. 

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

I've answered it numerous times, with words from the Islamic State themselves... Just because you think it's wrong, doesn't mean it hasn't been answered.

What I am enjoying is helping you dig yourself deeper and deeper here though. Enjoy.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 17:59:13 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

I've answered it numerous times, with words from the Islamic State themselves... Just because you think it's wrong, doesn't mean it hasn't been answered. 

where did you answer it?  i must have missed that.  was it in post #8?

[Robert not Bobby]

This does not need any complicated answers.

There were bad people, who killed innocents.

DJ, for the most part, I've always respected your posts ...Be well.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Here, I'll make it REAL easy for you.. your original questions...

et's start out by asking: what others do they want to destroy?

do they want to destroy the Japanese?  how about Patagonians?

next question (in all seriousness): who are the leaders of ISIS and what are their strategic goals?

Who do they want to destroy? EVERYBODY! Per their own videos.. black flag of jihad on statue of liberty been taught to kids in Afghanistan as we speak? YEP!!!!

Who is their leader? Their version of Muhammad and Allah!! Per over 1400 years of history and their own words, directly quoting the Koran.

Accept it not, it matters not to me.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 18:15:15 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Here, I'll make it REAL easy for you.. your original questions...

et's start out by asking: what others do they want to destroy?

do they want to destroy the Japanese?  how about Patagonians?

next question (in all seriousness): who are the leaders of ISIS and what are their strategic goals?

Who do they want to destroy? EVERYBODY! Per their own videos.. black flag of jihad on statue of liberty been taught to kids in Afghanistan as we speak? YEP!!!!

Who is their leader? Their version of Muhammad and Allah!! Per over 1400 years of history and their own words, directly quoting the Koran.

i'd appreciate it if you would leave the personal remarks out of your posts.  they are unwelcome and unhelpful to the debate.

you answered the first question wrong.  they are only interested in attacking countries within a certain region and those that support them- not "everyone".

and i wasn't asking who the LEADER was.  i was asking who the LEADERS were (as in, TODAY- their LIVING leaders), not who their PROPHET is.  there are about (25) of them.  they come from a wide variety of backgrounds, but about 1/3 come from a pious radical Islamic nationalist background, about 1/3 come from the region, and about 1/3 come from "elsewhere".

so, thanks for answering, but you got one question wrong, and you mistook the other one.  but i appreciate the effort, without the ROFL nonsense.

[djAdvocate]

since you answered, i will answer you, as best i can.

i don't really know how to measure "how well ISIS is doing".  if their goal is to create a caliphate on territory previously held by Muslims, then i would say they are doing really poorly.  if their goal is to hold some territory, and freak everyone out, then they are doing great.  but i suspect that it won't hold out until the apocalypse. 

[Value Buy]

I suggest some of you open the original article and read it, then discuss.
Seriously.
Here it is again in case you are interested. We read how the Muslim community does not integrate into society, but here is a success story that turned terribly tragic two weeks ago.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/after-paris-attacks-ties-that-bind-patrons-at-a-cafe-also-burn/ar-AAfFR20?li=BBnb7Kz

It involves a Jewish Bistro owner, his Muslim born wife, and Muslim employees that included some of the nineteen killed in the bistro that night.
We have to realize, the radical Islamist extremists do not include all Muslims, and proceed from there.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Like I said, accept it or not - it matters not to me.

blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/11/26/the-scariest-thing-about-islamic-state-its-kindler-gentler-side/

Thousands of peace-loving people live in Islamic State-occupied areas and are fed a steady stream of positive propaganda: Islamic State members feeding the poor, and hosting ice cream socials, carnivals, and tug-of-war contests. Islamic State is trying — and in some areas, succeeding — in winning hearts and minds. Left unchecked, its public support will grow, making the group more difficult to defeat in the long run and giving it the space it needs to conduct future attacks like those in Paris and Beirut.

Charlie Winter, of the counter-extremism think tank Quilliam, performed a month-long study of Islamic State propaganda. Winter discovered that — contrary to what we see in Western media — over half of Islamic State propaganda shows people going about everyday activities in a peaceful and normal manner.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 18:58:29 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/11/26/the-scariest-thing-about-islamic-state-its-kindler-gentler-side/

Thousands of peace-loving people live in Islamic State-occupied areas and are fed a steady stream of positive propaganda: Islamic State members feeding the poor, and hosting ice cream socials, carnivals, and tug-of-war contests. Islamic State is trying — and in some areas, succeeding — in winning hearts and minds. Left unchecked, its public support will grow, making the group more difficult to defeat in the long run and giving it the space it needs to conduct future attacks like those in Paris and Beirut.

Charlie Winter, of the counter-extremism think tank Quilliam, performed a month-long study of Islamic State propaganda. Winter discovered that — contrary to what we see in Western media — over half of Islamic State propaganda shows people going about everyday activities in a peaceful and normal manner.

nothing in this post contradicts my reply.  so, what is your point?

[djAdvocate]

Nov 27, 2015 18:56:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I suggest some of you open the original article and read it, then discuss.
Seriously.
Here it is again in case you are interested. We read how the Muslim community does not integrate into society, but here is a success story that turned terribly tragic two weeks ago.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/after-paris-attacks-ties-that-bind-patrons-at-a-cafe-also-burn/ar-AAfFR20?li=BBnb7Kz

It involves a Jewish Bistro owner, his Muslim born wife, and Muslim employees that included some of the nineteen killed in the bistro that night.
We have to realize, the radical Islamist extremists do not include all Muslims, and proceed from there.

Sayd Qutb believed that any Muslims that had adopted Western values were infidels and could justifiably be killed.

i am betting that many or most of these ISIS loons are no different.

in this sense, they are more an enemy to Islam than it's benefactor.