GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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"How you win matters." Ender, Ender's Game
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Nov 20, 2015 14:13:25 GMT -5
' Don't know if you can see this but this is how Andrew Neil introduced his political program last night. Says it all really. They, Daesh... are offering nothing but death. Keep a level head and act sensibly. Our way of life and our freedoms..... will always prevail in the end. (Caveat: I am NOT defending nor furthering the IS thinking. Just offering it for argument's sake.) The problem with Andrew Neil's opinion is that IS doesn't assign any value -- not one iota of value -- to any of the cultural/scientific/medical progress he recited. IS wants everyone living in mud huts and serving at their will. IS will only succeed if their followers are uneducated and uninformed. If anything, the social progress Neil listed is a direct threat to the IS. So, as long as we can continue to value art and music and education and science and medicine, then we will win. But, if enough people don't value those ideals or, worse, if enough people don't have access to them in order to value them, then we are screwed.
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Spellbound454
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"In the end, we remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends"
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Post by Spellbound454 on Nov 20, 2015 15:57:33 GMT -5
A large proportion of population of Syria are coming to the West...so happen they do want to experience more than IS have to offer.
In these days of global media ....People are going to see others and think "why can't I have my share" If it was just safety they wanted they could remain in a tent in Turkey. Many of them were wealthy and middle class before this happened. You can't keep people in the dark anymore....Its only going to appeal to the desert dwellers who side with anyone who is pointing a gun at them.
Many of the people going to Syria from here.. are criminals......They are not accepted by society and just fancy waving an AK47 around. The woman most recently killed in the shootout by French forces hadn't even read the Koran. She was off the rails, then found something which made her feel important for a few months. Hardly the poster girl for a conservative Islamic ideology.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 20, 2015 23:50:04 GMT -5
I don't think we are going to come out of this looking good. I've seen stories of the British civilians during WWII. How they were so stoic while their country was being bombed. How they went about their business as normally as possible. Many stories of how people that had lost their homes or had their family evacuated throughout the country still found it within themselves to be kind to others, to worry about people they figured had it worse then them. Winston Churchill giving inspirational speeches about how the enemy would not steal their humanity. I don't think those are the stories history is going to write about us. If certain attitudes win out we are going to end up being more like the Germans that allowed Hitler to whip them up into a froth against the Jews. Rounding them up, sending them to work camps, then concentration camps, invading other countries (for Germany it was Poland et al, for us it will be the Middle East) I will probably be one of the ineffectual and ridiculous figures that tried to stem the tide of blind hatred but got nowhere. It will probably be the Chinese writing up this history after the rest of us have decimated ourselves and each other. It is a difficult situation. I can't say I like all of the rhetoric going on myself, particularly that of a "religious" test. But at the same time, I think you're a damn fool if you ignore the danger. The reality is the U.S has been relatively isolated from infiltration by terrorists, and I'd like to keep it that way. Europe, on the other hand, has absorbed a large muslim population, and while the majority are law biding citizens, they are dealing with the fallout. The fact of the matter is, once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't really put it back in. European intelligence is overwhelmed by the numbers of people they have to keep track of. I'm not necessarily opposed to accepting some refugees, as long as the numbers are small and they are properly vetted. I think 10,000 is an acceptable number But It's not "racist" or "bigotry" to show grave concern over the danger.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 20, 2015 23:54:26 GMT -5
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free.... *some restrictions apply **not available in all states Those words were spoken when there wasn't really a threat of international terrorism. At the end of the day, the responsibility of our elected officials is to protect Americans, not Syrians. As I said, I'm not opposed to helping out some refugees, but I wish you would face the reality of the situation, that there are very real national security implications with this decision. It's not a decision to be made lightly, it is one to be carefully considered. I think it's important to accept refugees because, as spellbound said, it's a war of ideas. And we don't want to play into their "us vs. them" mindset. But at the same time, I wish more people understood that by doing so, we're opening ourselves up to potentially serious risk. It's not about "being mean" to a particular group of people, it's facing the reality of the situation and making the right calls.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2015 10:21:49 GMT -5
At what point do you think we have ignored the risk?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2015 20:17:41 GMT -5
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free.... *some restrictions apply **not available in all states While I do "like" the post and agree with the sarcasm... there actually is a restriction built into the phrase. We don't want the ones coming over here for the sole purpose of hurting others or taking away freedom... we just want the ones that are "yearning to be free".
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Spellbound454
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"In the end, we remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends"
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Post by Spellbound454 on Nov 22, 2015 8:39:22 GMT -5
Don't know what your government are doing but the UK are taking vetted families from the refugee camps ....and not the.. mostly... young men who are walking across Europe.
We don't want to encourage a situation where people travel across the Mediteranian in inflatable boats.....and end up drowned.
Angela Merkels "open up" Germany....and demand everyone else opens up their Country isn't going to wash with many Europeans.
I'd favour limited visas also, so that the refugees are encouraged to return home. Its what they want... and its what host countries want. They don't want to be assimilated in to a foreign country....they want to go back to their country when it is safe to do so.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 22, 2015 8:43:49 GMT -5
Well, since history has now become the new fodder of political correctness and persuasion, history will only matter by whomever is writing and interpreting it with their particular slant and point of view.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 22, 2015 8:54:28 GMT -5
What's the old saying? " I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6?"
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 22, 2015 9:01:44 GMT -5
If you live your life doing what you believe is right, then who cares how someone "judges" you? That's their problem. If i am dead, then i am dead. Don't care. I will support what i believe is right and let the chips fall where they fall.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 22, 2015 11:41:54 GMT -5
Well, since history has now become the new fodder of political correctness and persuasion, history will only matter by whomever is writing and interpreting it with their particular slant and point of view. Would you please pinpoint the time in history when this changed to what you claim it has changed to? I thought it always was that way.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 22, 2015 11:47:00 GMT -5
Well, since history has now become the new fodder of political correctness and persuasion, history will only matter by whomever is writing and interpreting it with their particular slant and point of view. Would you please pinpoint the time in history when this changed to what you claim it has changed to? I thought it always was that way. Oh OK. What once were revered figures like Christopher Columbus, later become convenient political pawns, lol.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 22, 2015 11:59:07 GMT -5
Would you please pinpoint the time in history when this changed to what you claim it has changed to? I thought it always was that way. Oh OK. What once were revered figures like Christopher Columbus, later become convenient political pawns, lol. They were always political pawns.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 22, 2015 12:10:45 GMT -5
No, the Left has been rewriting history texts for a long time. For the Left Wing, saying something is So, somehow makes it so. They use language to attempt to alter reality. That if we say something is so, then it is whether there is any real truth behind it or not.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 22, 2015 12:18:06 GMT -5
Oh OK. What once were revered figures like Christopher Columbus, later become convenient political pawns, lol. They were always political pawns. Quite so. Columbus was a pawn of the Spanish monarchies, in fact. When he got back to Spain, his arse was arrested. Isabella was concerned because Columbus was hawking his idea of a journey to the Far East by travelling west (don't ask) to other European countries. Isabella (and Ferdinand) sorta wanted to be first if Columbus happened to succeed, or find something else of interest, so Isabella approved his voyage under the auspices of the Catholic Monarchies of Spain. Nothing but politics at work there.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 22, 2015 12:37:50 GMT -5
Always has been that way. Always will be that way.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 22, 2015 12:55:51 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 22, 2015 13:07:06 GMT -5
history is essentially written by the NYT. so, the question is, how is the NYT judging us?
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 22, 2015 13:11:46 GMT -5
No, the Left has been rewriting history texts for a long time. For the Left Wing, saying something is So, somehow makes it so. They use language to attempt to alter reality. That if we say something is so, then it is whether there is any real truth behind it or not. Oh, bull hockey! The "left" is no more guilty of this sort of thing than the "right", Shooby. Politicians lie. I do hope that doesn't come as a surprise. Corporations - even those that make text books - cater to politicians, not to the public. Textbooks have always contained the information those in power wish the public to believe. Those in power are not only "left"; nor, are they only "right." It's this kind of blind, one-sided thinking that results in the kind of acrimony we're seeing so much of these days.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Nov 22, 2015 13:19:46 GMT -5
No, the Left has been rewriting history texts for a long time. For the Left Wing, saying something is So, somehow makes it so. They use language to attempt to alter reality. That if we say something is so, then it is whether there is any real truth behind it or not. The most egregious examples of what you are complaining about (at least with regard to textbooks) come from far-right conservatives in Texas. You bespeak your bias when you suggest that only one side does this, not to mention that many things NEED to be rewritten BECAUSE of previous bias in their original writing.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 22, 2015 13:29:21 GMT -5
No, the Left has been rewriting history texts for a long time. For the Left Wing, saying something is So, somehow makes it so. They use language to attempt to alter reality. That if we say something is so, then it is whether there is any real truth behind it or not. The most egregious examples of what you are complaining about (at least with regard to textbooks) come from far-right conservatives in Texas. You bespeak your bias when you suggest that only one side does this, not to mention that many things NEED to be rewritten BECAUSE of previous bias in their original writing. not only do they do it, but the WAY they do it is so blatantly political is is frightening. intentionally downplaying Jefferson is one thing- but their REASONS for doing that should piss pretty much anyone off that believes in the founding principles of this nation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2015 19:36:44 GMT -5
Well, since history has now become the new fodder of political correctness and persuasion, history will only matter by whomever is writing and interpreting it with their particular slant and point of view. Now? You say this like it's something new.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Nov 24, 2015 10:20:52 GMT -5
I don't think we are going to come out of this looking good. I've seen stories of the British civilians during WWII. How they were so stoic while their country was being bombed. How they went about their business as normally as possible. Many stories of how people that had lost their homes or had their family evacuated throughout the country still found it within themselves to be kind to others, to worry about people they figured had it worse then them. Winston Churchill giving inspirational speeches about how the enemy would not steal their humanity. I don't think those are the stories history is going to write about us. If certain attitudes win out we are going to end up being more like the Germans that allowed Hitler to whip them up into a froth against the Jews. Rounding them up, sending them to work camps, then concentration camps, invading other countries (for Germany it was Poland et al, for us it will be the Middle East) I will probably be one of the ineffectual and ridiculous figures that tried to stem the tide of blind hatred but got nowhere. It will probably be the Chinese writing up this history after the rest of us have decimated ourselves and each other. German and other national refugees during WWII (especially Jews) were refused help from all over the world...don't worry, if history has shown us anything it's that history gets repeated ad nauseum, no matter how much people learn from it.
And, as seen from your post, you have no idea about the comparative parts of WWII to today...so it will be with our own history.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Nov 24, 2015 10:27:37 GMT -5
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free.... *some restrictions apply **not available in all states While I do "like" the post and agree with the sarcasm... there actually is a restriction built into the phrase. We don't want the ones coming over here for the sole purpose of hurting others or taking away freedom... we just want the ones that are "yearning to be free". Not to mention the fact that many of the refugees fleeing to Europe are trying to get to a couple of specific countries: Germany and Sweden. Why? Because those two countries pay out the biggest monetary benefits to the refugees. So that's hardly the kind of people we should want coming to this country...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2015 10:46:12 GMT -5
Yes I do, but for once I was looking to avoid being insulting to American posters. I think most people are aware of the interment camps and denying Jews refuge and how Israel came to be given to Jews (the Jews? how do you say that appropriately?)
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 24, 2015 14:54:58 GMT -5
I said that I am not getting any anti refugee rhetoric on my FB feed, but last night a friend posted a rant. Whenever you start a sentence with "Those people" you are probably about to make a racist statement, and she did. It isn't going that well for her. More people are defending "those people" than she expected.
I grew up with this lady and she was always so culturally aware and sensitive. She went to great lengths to learn about different traditions and participate. I assumed she would be my sherpa into a world where different people can live together, etc. But I guess the only cultures worth preserving are the Anglo ones. So disappointing.
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