The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Nov 4, 2015 13:36:06 GMT -5
The problem is that - most people I can believe in, don't have party affiliations (independent). Thus, like Zib said - I'm throwing my vote away. Because unless you're loaded, or have party backing, you don't have a chance. Especially in my state .
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 4, 2015 13:37:34 GMT -5
Yes Paul, modeling the turnout is key to understanding polling. Here is the chain I quoted - "conservatism is ascendant" - 'Graph' - "Election results". Actual turnout is the key to understanding that. precisely. if liberals stay home, conservatives win, whether they are 99% of the electorate, or 1%.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 4, 2015 13:38:59 GMT -5
The problem is that - most people I can believe in, don't have party affiliations (independent). Thus, like Zib said - I'm throwing my vote away. Because unless you're loaded, or have party backing, you don't have a chance. Especially in my state . you are only throwing your vote away if you vote for someone you don't believe in. if voters vote for who they believe in, rather than for parties that don't represent us, who we believe in might actually..... WIN
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 4, 2015 13:40:52 GMT -5
The problem is that - most people I can believe in, don't have party affiliations (independent). Thus, like Zib said - I'm throwing my vote away. Because unless you're loaded, or have party backing, you don't have a chance. Especially in my state .
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Nov 4, 2015 13:49:18 GMT -5
The problem is that - most people I can believe in, don't have party affiliations (independent). Thus, like Zib said - I'm throwing my vote away. Because unless you're loaded, or have party backing, you don't have a chance. Especially in my state . you are only throwing your vote away if you vote for someone you don't believe in. if voters vote for who they believe in, rather than for parties that don't represent us, who we believe in might actually..... WINDJ - I really respect you and admire your...faith in the American voter, I guess? I just can't get on the same page. Problem is, how many do you think actually take the time to research the candidates, see where they stand on issues that are important to the voters, or even, god forbid - think about what issues are important to them as voters? I guarantee you that in a lot of areas around me people will vote the way they have always voted, or for the candidate their pastor tells them to. Every major election we have a man on the street segment (or several) by the local TV stations asking the random passers by what are the major issues in this election and where do the candidates stand on them? I just want to curl up in a ball and weep for the future of our country when I hear the answers. Hell, the Republican party can't even agree on it's priorities or agenda.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 4, 2015 15:16:15 GMT -5
I'm seriously considering voting Democrat if the GOP nominates someone like Jeb. If we're going to destroy the country then let's rip the damn band aid off and do it already-- and let the blame fall on the Democrats and leftists. don't be stupid. vote for someone you actually believe in, for once. Sorry, so far it's no one. Besides, my choices don't seem to ever turn out well.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 4, 2015 16:19:30 GMT -5
you are only throwing your vote away if you vote for someone you don't believe in. if voters vote for who they believe in, rather than for parties that don't represent us, who we believe in might actually..... WINDJ - I really respect you and admire your...faith in the American voter, I guess? I just can't get on the same page. has nothing to do with my faith in ANYTHING. i am UTTERLY FAITHLESS, Cappy. i simply stated the facts. IF people would vote for the candidate that most represented them, THEN we would have different leadership. i honestly don't care if you agree or disagree, because it is just a fact. anyone who denies it is just not seeing reality, imo.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 4, 2015 16:37:42 GMT -5
Problem is, how many do you think actually take the time to research the candidates, see where they stand on issues that are important to the voters, or even, god forbid - think about what issues are important to them as voters? I guarantee you that in a lot of areas around me people will vote the way they have always voted, or for the candidate their pastor tells them to. Every major election we have a man on the street segment (or several) by the local TV stations asking the random passers by what are the major issues in this election and where do the candidates stand on them? I just want to curl up in a ball and weep for the future of our country when I hear the answers. Hell, the Republican party can't even agree on it's priorities or agenda. i expect people to think for themselves, and vote. and no, i don't think that makes me some wild eyed idealist. if it is ok to expect people to work, it is ok to expect them to vote, imo. siding with the lazy in either case is inexcusable.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 4, 2015 16:39:12 GMT -5
don't be stupid. vote for someone you actually believe in, for once. Sorry, so far it's no one. Besides, my choices don't seem to ever turn out well. you are voting for Democrats and Republicans. stop it.
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 4, 2015 17:07:14 GMT -5
Sigh
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Post by fishy999 on Nov 4, 2015 20:48:18 GMT -5
A Republican winning in KY is 'huge'? As was also said- very low turnout- 30% maybe. Didn't surprise me at all. In other words Obama lost the race for governor in KY I bet the Kim Davis fans voted
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 4, 2015 20:51:01 GMT -5
A Republican winning in KY is 'huge'? As was also said- very low turnout- 30% maybe. Didn't surprise me at all. In other words Obama lost the race for governor in KY I bet the Kim Davis fans voted if turnout was 60%, it would have been a Democratic landslide. that is how it works.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 4, 2015 21:22:53 GMT -5
The problem is that - most people I can believe in, don't have party affiliations (independent). Thus, like Zib said - I'm throwing my vote away. Because unless you're loaded, or have party backing, you don't have a chance. Especially in my state . I'm loaded right no...oh, wait you mean, "have money"...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 4, 2015 21:28:00 GMT -5
A Republican winning in KY is 'huge'? As was also said- very low turnout- 30% maybe. Didn't surprise me at all. In other words Obama lost the race for governor in KY I bet the Kim Davis fans voted if turnout was 60%, it would have been a Democratic landslide. that is how it works. Here's how it works: If a TEA Party conservative, Christian, pro-life candidate wins the governor's mansion by 9 points after being predicted to lose by 5 points and as a result becomes the second GOP governor in the last 40 years- that's a landslide. And if a TEA Party conservative, Christian, pro-life candidate becomes the first African American ever elected to statewide office running as Lt Governor by the aforementioned candidate's side in the former confederate / Democrat state where the county clerk just made national news by her controversial decision not to put her name on gay marriage certificates-- that's complete blow out.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 4, 2015 21:30:24 GMT -5
A Republican winning in KY is 'huge'? As was also said- very low turnout- 30% maybe. Didn't surprise me at all. In other words Obama lost the race for governor in KY I bet the Kim Davis fans voted You know they did. And the 'controversy' was recent enough that you'd think if activists gave a shit, they'd have put up more of a fight. Goes to show just what a show the whole pretext of "gay marriage = gay rights" really is.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 4, 2015 21:30:42 GMT -5
if turnout was 60%, it would have been a Democratic landslide. that is how it works. Here's how it works: If a TEA Party conservative, Christian, pro-life candidate wins the governor's mansion by 9 points after being predicted to lose by 5 points and as a result becomes the second GOP governor in the last 40 years- that's a landslide. And if a TEA Party conservative, Christian, pro-life candidate becomes the first African American ever elected to statewide office running as Lt Governor by the aforementioned candidate's side in the former confederate / Democrat state where the county clerk just made national news by her controversial decision not to put her name on gay marriage certificates-- that's complete blow out. are you claiming that 30% turnout had nothing to do with the above?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 4, 2015 21:35:44 GMT -5
Here's how it works: If a TEA Party conservative, Christian, pro-life candidate wins the governor's mansion by 9 points after being predicted to lose by 5 points and as a result becomes the second GOP governor in the last 40 years- that's a landslide. And if a TEA Party conservative, Christian, pro-life candidate becomes the first African American ever elected to statewide office running as Lt Governor by the aforementioned candidate's side in the former confederate / Democrat state where the county clerk just made national news by her controversial decision not to put her name on gay marriage certificates-- that's complete blow out. are you claiming that 30% turnout had nothing to do with the above? No, I'm saying that it is indicative of just how hard it is to get the mind-numbed robot, bought-and-paid for, ballot-box-stuffing loons that Democrats can normally muster in a Presidential year out to support their wildly unpopular agenda in off-years. I've already indicated I agree with you on this. That being said, are you denying the historic aspects of this election-- especially so close on the heels of the recent controversy that engulfed this very state?
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 4, 2015 21:53:14 GMT -5
are you claiming that 30% turnout had nothing to do with the above? No, whew. that's good. because it had everything to do with that result. even Nate Silver says so.I'm saying that it is indicative of just how hard it is to get the mind-numbed robot, bought-and-paid for, ballot-box-stuffing loons that Democrats can normally muster in a Presidential year out to support their wildly unpopular agenda in off-years. I've already indicated I agree with you on this. That being said, are you denying the historic aspects of this election-- especially so close on the heels of the recent controversy that engulfed this very state? historic for KY? sure. yeah. Democrats have not done this poorly there in a generation. this reminds me of what happened to WV.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 5, 2015 2:54:42 GMT -5
DJ - I really respect you and admire your...faith in the American voter, I guess? I just can't get on the same page. has nothing to do with my faith in ANYTHING. i am UTTERLY FAITHLESS, Cappy. i simply stated the facts. IF people would vote for the candidate that most represented them, THEN we would have different leadership. i honestly don't care if you agree or disagree, because it is just a fact. anyone who denies it is just not seeing reality, imo. I have rarely seen such a candidate, because all candidates are pre-selected by the major party apparatus and/or their donors.
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 5, 2015 9:20:43 GMT -5
... I have rarely seen such a candidate, because all candidates are pre-selected by the major party apparatus and/or their donors. Including, for example, Jill Stein?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 5, 2015 10:55:49 GMT -5
... I have rarely seen such a candidate, because all candidates are pre-selected by the major party apparatus and/or their donors. Including, for example, Jill Stein? I love this lady. I have already promoted her to all my liberal Democrat friends. She's perfect!
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 5, 2015 11:52:32 GMT -5
has nothing to do with my faith in ANYTHING. i am UTTERLY FAITHLESS, Cappy. i simply stated the facts. IF people would vote for the candidate that most represented them, THEN we would have different leadership. i honestly don't care if you agree or disagree, because it is just a fact. anyone who denies it is just not seeing reality, imo. I have rarely seen such a candidate, because all candidates are pre-selected by the major party apparatus and/or their donors. ergo: stop voting major party. problem solved.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 5, 2015 19:21:47 GMT -5
I have rarely seen such a candidate, because all candidates are pre-selected by the major party apparatus and/or their donors. ergo: stop voting major party. problem solved. Actually, not working within a major party exacerbates the problem.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 5, 2015 19:44:51 GMT -5
ergo: stop voting major party. problem solved. Actually, not working within a major party exacerbates the problem. what problem? voting for candidates you find loathsome? that is the problem i was suggesting we address.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 5, 2015 19:59:01 GMT -5
Actually, not working within a major party exacerbates the problem. what problem? voting for candidates you find loathsome? that is the problem i was suggesting we address. The problem of the major parties forcing loathsome candidates on us. What you suggest is what the GOP elite actually want to happen. That's what Jeb meant when he made the seemingly ridiculous statement that he would win the general election by losing the primary. The pressure put on the GOP by TEA Party and evangelical Christian, and other social conservatives is in fact the conscience of the nation. We're it. The remnant-- the only shred of decency left. We've already got one major party that is comfortable booing God, and booing Israel, openly persecuting Christians, and putting their political opponents into prison-- if we devolve to the point where the other party- the GOP- feels they, too, are completely unaccountable, that's it. It's all over.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 5, 2015 20:04:17 GMT -5
what problem? voting for candidates you find loathsome? that is the problem i was suggesting we address. The problem of the major parties forcing loathsome candidates on us. What you suggest is what the GOP elite actually want to happen. That's what Jeb meant when he made the seemingly ridiculous statement that he would win the general election by losing the primary. The pressure put on the GOP by TEA Party and evangelical Christian, and other social conservatives is in fact the conscience of the nation. We're it. The remnant-- the only shred of decency left. We've already got one major party that is comfortable booing God, and booing Israel, openly persecuting Christians, and putting their political opponents into prison-- if we devolve to the point where the other party- the GOP- feels they, too, are completely unaccountable, that's it. It's all over. so, you don't think that if we pick up our ball and go play with someone else, they will be forced to change? personally, i think that is the only way it happens. i have illustrated how, before. nobody listens, tho.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 5, 2015 21:51:17 GMT -5
The problem of the major parties forcing loathsome candidates on us. What you suggest is what the GOP elite actually want to happen. That's what Jeb meant when he made the seemingly ridiculous statement that he would win the general election by losing the primary. The pressure put on the GOP by TEA Party and evangelical Christian, and other social conservatives is in fact the conscience of the nation. We're it. The remnant-- the only shred of decency left. We've already got one major party that is comfortable booing God, and booing Israel, openly persecuting Christians, and putting their political opponents into prison-- if we devolve to the point where the other party- the GOP- feels they, too, are completely unaccountable, that's it. It's all over. so, you don't think that if we pick up our ball and go play with someone else, they will be forced to change? personally, i think that is the only way it happens. i have illustrated how, before. nobody listens, tho. That's a mighty big "if". There simply aren't enough eligible voters persuaded that this is the solution. The two parties are too entrenched. If you don't take one over, or start one with enough money to make everyone who's already suspicious, suspicious-- then there's no shot.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 7, 2015 12:29:22 GMT -5
so, you don't think that if we pick up our ball and go play with someone else, they will be forced to change? personally, i think that is the only way it happens. i have illustrated how, before. nobody listens, tho. That's a mighty big "if". There simply aren't enough eligible voters persuaded that this is the solution. The two parties are too entrenched. If you don't take one over, or start one with enough money to make everyone who's already suspicious, suspicious-- then there's no shot. ridiculous. every eligible voter is capable of voting 3rd party. the only persuasion required is to look at what they, themselves, want, and find a candidate that supports that. nothing more.
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 7, 2015 12:29:44 GMT -5
There are examples of the change happening both ways of course. The Democratic party is an example of Paul's way; a party changing drastically from within. ( I am talking about the early 1800's, btw) The GOP is an example of dj's suggested course of action. It can happen.
Change like that usually occurs during times of great strife though, greater than we have today. Perhaps if the decline of the middle class continues there will be enough impetus to bring something like this about, perhaps some other agent of change. In today's climate though, I believe the two major parties are too entrenched, and big money is too powerful, jmo.
Of course the opposite could happen too. The consolidation of money and power could continue, and our experiment in democracy could come to an effective end. We the people are not helping here, with our abysmal voter participation rates. (That includes not just voting, but also some level of knowledge of the issues)
there are examples of parties breaking up, and new parties forming, too. the Whigs are the most notable example.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 7, 2015 13:14:44 GMT -5
That's a mighty big "if". There simply aren't enough eligible voters persuaded that this is the solution. The two parties are too entrenched. If you don't take one over, or start one with enough money to make everyone who's already suspicious, suspicious-- then there's no shot. ridiculous. every eligible voter is capable of voting 3rd party. the only persuasion required is to look at what they, themselves, want, and find a candidate that supports that. nothing more. You're saying it's ridiculous. Perhaps in theory. In reality, it just "is". If you think you can persuade enough eligible voters to propel a third party to victory, then put your money where your mouth is. No need to let me know- I'll notice when you've done it.
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