imawino
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Post by imawino on Oct 29, 2015 15:58:57 GMT -5
If mom was a first aid and CPR instructor, and the 8 year old asked to be trained in that because brother had a heart problem, would that be bad? Would we be saying that mom was placing the burden of son's condition on the daughter?
The difference between training a youngster to deliver CPR and training that same youngster to inject Narcan is that the injection of Narcan is an invasive procedure. CPR is not. The injection of any medication involves the risk of side effects that may, or may not be even further life-threatening and can be not only dangerous but frightening for a child. The two actions don't correlate. Someone dying in front of a child would be very frightening for said child. Putting your mouth on someone's mouth and breathing into them is scary for a child, and kinda gross. Administering first aid to a bleeding wound is scary for a child, and also kinda gross and possibly risky. Injecting someone with an epi pen is invasive and scary. They totally correlate. My point is I think in other circumstances the people who are freaking out about putting an undue burden on a child would be fine with it. If the kid's sibling had a life threatening allergy and needed an epi pen, for example. It's the idea of saving a druggie that seems to have gotten some dander up. And that's okay. if you believe that all drug users are worthless scum who shouldn't be saved by anyone, just own it. No need to dress up the reasons why.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 29, 2015 16:03:20 GMT -5
The difference between training a youngster to deliver CPR and training that same youngster to inject Narcan is that the injection of Narcan is an invasive procedure. CPR is not. The injection of any medication involves the risk of side effects that may, or may not be even further life-threatening and can be not only dangerous but frightening for a child. The two actions don't correlate. Someone dying in front of a child would be very frightening for said child. Putting your mouth on someone's mouth and breathing into them is scary for a child, and kinda gross. Administering first aid to a bleeding wound is scary for a child, and also kinda gross and possibly risky. Injecting someone with an epi pen is invasive and scary. They totally correlate. My point is I think in other circumstances the people who are freaking out about putting an undue burden on a child would be fine with it. If the kid's sibling had a life threatening allergy and needed an epi pen, for example. It's the idea of saving a druggie that seems to have gotten some dander up. And that's okay. if you believe that all drug users are worthless scum who shouldn't be saved by anyone, just own it. No need to dress up the reasons why. <chuckle> I don't believe all drug users are worthless scum. I've saved a pot-load of them and have given more than my share of Narcan, so I don't need to dress anything up. I've got quite a bit of experience with this situation. I've also had these patients receive their Narcan and promptly take a hefty swing at me. I'm not for putting all that in the hands of a child under the age of 16. As I said before - MOO (My Opinion Only)
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Oct 29, 2015 16:07:58 GMT -5
Someone dying in front of a child would be very frightening for said child. Putting your mouth on someone's mouth and breathing into them is scary for a child, and kinda gross. Administering first aid to a bleeding wound is scary for a child, and also kinda gross and possibly risky. Injecting someone with an epi pen is invasive and scary. They totally correlate. My point is I think in other circumstances the people who are freaking out about putting an undue burden on a child would be fine with it. If the kid's sibling had a life threatening allergy and needed an epi pen, for example. It's the idea of saving a druggie that seems to have gotten some dander up. And that's okay. if you believe that all drug users are worthless scum who shouldn't be saved by anyone, just own it. No need to dress up the reasons why. <chuckle> I don't believe all drug users are worthless scum. I've saved a pot-load of them and have given more than my share of Narcan, so I don't need to dress anything up. I've got quite a bit of experience with this situation. I've also had these patients receive their Narcan and promptly take a hefty swing at me. I'm not for putting all that in the hands of a child under the age of 16. As I said before - MOO (My Opinion Only) I wasn't referring to you.
As a medical professional I'm sure you know that people can flail around or take swings at people for any number of reasons when they are in medical distress. It's not Narcan limited, so could certainly happen in other first aid situations.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 29, 2015 16:21:25 GMT -5
<chuckle> I don't believe all drug users are worthless scum. I've saved a pot-load of them and have given more than my share of Narcan, so I don't need to dress anything up. I've got quite a bit of experience with this situation. I've also had these patients receive their Narcan and promptly take a hefty swing at me. I'm not for putting all that in the hands of a child under the age of 16. As I said before - MOO (My Opinion Only) I wasn't referring to you.
As a medical professional I'm sure you know that people can flail around or take swings at people for any number of reasons when they are in medical distress. It's not Narcan limited, so could certainly happen in other first aid situations.
That's very true. It's the reason we don't allow children near the bedsides of patients in the hospital for whom this might be an issue.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 16:31:54 GMT -5
I see training a child to potentially aid a sibling as a dilemma in which the best decision is one made by a parent as aware of all aspects of the situation as possible.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Oct 29, 2015 16:34:10 GMT -5
This whole scenario seems to be backwards...isn't it parents who should be taking care of their kids and not the other way around?
OK, when I'm 85, and if I get there, I would expect some help from my "kids"...who would be in their 50s by then.
This hurts my brain.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 29, 2015 17:07:05 GMT -5
My answer would be "you can call 911". IMO that's all an 8-year-old should be trained to do. Kids shouldn't even be seeing a drug overdose, let alone treating it.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 17:15:25 GMT -5
My answer would be "you can call 911". IMO that's all an 8-year-old should be trained to do. Kids shouldn't even be seeing a drug overdose, let alone treating it. In a little bit of a twisted way, the less likely the kid might be in the position to give the treatment the more I might go with the training. The kid knowing that, "I could save my brother" but never having to actually do it could be a positive for a kid very worried about a sibling they love very much.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Oct 29, 2015 17:38:58 GMT -5
What happens to that 8 yr old who does try to save whichever drug addict is in their home and it fails? Poor kiddo will probably live with that guilt all their lives. Call 911 should be the first avenue taught. Kids younger have called 911 with good results.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 29, 2015 18:49:45 GMT -5
I'm about as liberal as they come - and do in fact think drugs should be legal, but no, this is completely ridiculous. If you are an active heroin user, to the point where you need to keep meds on hand in case you OD, kids should probably not be in your custody. x1000
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 18:57:17 GMT -5
What happens to that 8 yr old who does try to save whichever drug addict is in their home and it fails? Poor kiddo will probably live with that guilt all their lives. Call 911 should be the first avenue taught. Kids younger have called 911 with good results. What happens to the 8 year old who has asked to be trained, been told no, and had a beloved sibling die in front of them? Poor kiddo will problably live that anger all their lives. I agree that call 911 should be the first avenue but once that road is taken, that doesn't preclude there being a second road to take. Again, for the kids who parents have determined it is appropriate.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 29, 2015 18:58:20 GMT -5
Maybe I am a little slow here (wouldn't be the first time), but what happens if I train an 8yo to give this injection and said 8yo has a friend over to plat and wants to show how cool this is to his/her friend? What happens to the not-high child that gets injected with this drug? Would it even survive? And if it survives would there permanent damage? I really don't see any upside here and a lot of downsides.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 19:48:19 GMT -5
... wants to show how cool this is to his/her friend? ... You don't train a kid that would have that type of mentality.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Oct 30, 2015 6:53:24 GMT -5
Ok so I did a small amount of research - i.e. I walked down the hallway and asked people who actually have administered this drug to people who while they are ODing.
There are 3 forms of this drug. The epi-pen style; an IV into the bloodstream and a gas/inhaler type form. The epi pen is the slowest one. It's also the format that HERE, is apparently given out freely at the needle exchange places with the hope that your buddy won't be as high, realize you're ODing and use it on you while calling 911.
The IV and inhaler type are fast acting on reversing the drug. This is where you're most likely to have someone be confused as they come out of it and take a swing at you. With the epi-pen style, as long as you back away after administering it, you're unlikely to get hit. And it takes people several minutes to come out of it. So you've got time to back off and get away.
I don't like thinking/realizing that the world I and my children live in/inhabit isn't the same world that other kids live in/inhabit. I don't like a world here 8 year olds have to be adults and figure out the best way to get food and/or shelter and to keep a parent/sibling/cousin/whatever from ODing. But the reality is that some 8 year olds ARE living in that world. And I don't know how we get them out of that world and into mine. It's probably not possible, which is damn depressing.
I don't know if it's enabling the drug user to teach kids how to save them from ODing or if it's empowering the child. But it's a sucky choice to have to make either way.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 30, 2015 8:18:50 GMT -5
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 30, 2015 13:22:46 GMT -5
... wants to show how cool this is to his/her friend? ... You don't train a kid that would have that type of mentality. There may be a few exceptions but I believe every 8yo has that mentality. There is no malice in them when they do these things just curiosity. Just look at how many kids accidentally kill other kids when they get their hands on a gun.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 30, 2015 13:29:34 GMT -5
You don't train a kid that would have that type of mentality. There may be a few exceptions but I believe every 8yo has that mentality. There is no malice in them when they do these things just curiosity. Just look at how many kids accidentally kill other kids when they get their hands on a gun. How often do children in the U.S. unintentionally shoot and kill people? We don’t know.Not sure how you go from the relative few who do kill someone to every kid.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 30, 2015 15:01:29 GMT -5
billisonboard, what I meant with my comment, and clearly did not communicate very well, is that most 8 yo have very little impulse control and are very curious. They like to try things out and it would not be a good idea IMO to give them something that they may not perceive as dangerous, because it is designed to save a life, and risk them experiment with it.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 30, 2015 15:12:11 GMT -5
billisonboard, what I meant with my comment, and clearly did not communicate very well, is that most 8 yo have very little impulse control and are very curious. They like to try things out and it would not be a good idea IMO to give them something that they may not perceive as dangerous, because it is designed to save a life, and risk them experiment with it. Well at least you have moved from "every" to "most". I would agree that there are few 8 year olds who should be trained. I believe the percentage would go up for 9 year olds and the percentage ready for training would increase with each age increase until about 65 and would start to drop again. I don't think it would ever reach 100%.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 31, 2015 21:14:07 GMT -5
I don't believe addicts should have custody of their kids.
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