Is this another National Park which citizens should avoid?

[Value Buy]

www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/arizonas-organ-pipe-park-is-a-paradise-for-tourists-but-a-death-trap-for-migrants/ar-AAftrvZ?li=AAa0dzB

Illegal Migrants use this park to come across the border to America.
Imagine the damage they do to the plants in the park. Brochures in Mexico tell them what cactus to cut for water.
Imagine if a citizen was caught destroying plants and cactus in a National Park.

We need the Trump wall now.
Think of this as an environmental issue instead of an illegal migrant issue.

[happyhoix]

I think it's funny how environmental issues are usually only raised by conservatives when they want something.

Build a wall because we're worried about our national park.

Don't put in wind turbines because we're worried about the dear little birds that wind turbines kill.

If we found out tomorrow that national park sat on top of an oil field no conservatives would give a shit about the poor tender cacti. They would be busy lobbying congress to allow oil leases there.

[Value Buy]

Oct 15, 2015 14:33:50 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think it's funny how environmental issues are usually only raised by conservatives when they want something.

Build a wall because we're worried about our national park.

Don't put in wind turbines because we're worried about the dear little birds that wind turbines kill.

If we found out tomorrow that national park sat on top of an oil field no conservatives would give a shit about the poor tender cacti. They would be busy lobbying congress to allow oil leases there.

I would prefer the slant well drilling from off the park boundaries to suck the field dry

Seriously, I do not want to have illegals destroying plants that I would get arrested or fined for if I did that.
I seriously doubt you would want to come across a group of water hungry illegals on a trail when it is only you and your significant other the only people on the trail.
I know probably nothing would happen other than you, or even me, would offer them our water, but I do not want to be put in that situation.
Myself, since it is illegal to carry weapons into the National parks other than for hunting, you do not have worry I would be packing and then shoot them........

[Tennesseer]

An environmental issue would be to not build the wall because it stops the crossing of animals and plant seeds and spores from crossing said wall.

[Gardening Grandma]

Mexicans account for only about half of the illegal immigrants.  Your wall wouldn't solve the problem, and, as Tennesser pointed out, would create environmental issues.  


www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/24/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

[NastyWoman]

Imagine if a citizen was caught destroying plants and cactus in a National Park.

"Safe for tourists. But not for the dwindling number of migrants and drug smugglers who use it to illegally enter the United States. An unknown number succumb to the ferocious heat, freezing nights and treacherous terrain"

Value Buy I would think that a tourist, whether a citizen or not is likely to encounter less severe problems than the illegal immigrants, or are you implying that government  agencies would torture any tourists caught defacing plants to death?  The second quote above is directly from the article you linked (bolded text is my emphasis)

[weltschmerz]

Oct 15, 2015 14:40:13 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Oct 15, 2015 14:33:50 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think it's funny how environmental issues are usually only raised by conservatives when they want something.

Build a wall because we're worried about our national park.

Don't put in wind turbines because we're worried about the dear little birds that wind turbines kill.

If we found out tomorrow that national park sat on top of an oil field no conservatives would give a shit about the poor tender cacti. They would be busy lobbying congress to allow oil leases there.

I would prefer the slant well drilling from off the park boundaries to suck the field dry

Seriously, I do not want to have illegals destroying plants that I would get arrested or fined for if I did that.
I seriously doubt you would want to come across a group of water hungrt illegals on a trail when it is only you and your significant other the only people on the trail.
I know probably nothing would happen other than you, or even me, would offer them our water, but I do not want to be put in that situation.
Myself, since it is illegal to carry weapons into the National parks other than for hunting, you do not have worry I would be packing and then shoot them........

Oh, baloney! Obama made it legal in 2010. Do try to keep up. How is it possible that I know this and you don't?

www.nbcnews.com/id/35484383/ns/us_news-life/t/new-law-allows-loaded-guns-national-parks/#.ViBOkoCFPUA

[Value Buy]

Oct 15, 2015 20:14:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oct 15, 2015 14:40:13 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I would prefer the slant well drilling from off the park boundaries to suck the field dry

Seriously, I do not want to have illegals destroying plants that I would get arrested or fined for if I did that.
I seriously doubt you would want to come across a group of water hungrt illegals on a trail when it is only you and your significant other the only people on the trail.
I know probably nothing would happen other than you, or even me, would offer them our water, but I do not want to be put in that situation.
Myself, since it is illegal to carry weapons into the National parks other than for hunting, you do not have worry I would be packing and then shoot them........

Oh, baloney! Obama made it legal in 2010. Do try to keep up. How is it possible that I know this and you don't?

www.nbcnews.com/id/35484383/ns/us_news-life/t/new-law-allows-loaded-guns-national-parks/#.ViBOkoCFPUA

Weltz, thanks for the update.
I sort of wondered about that issue when I wrote it, but I did not want someone to come back and tell me I was wrong about allowing weapons in the park, and I was too lazy to research before posting.
I just remember always reading the signs of no weapons permitted at the front gates.
Now I can carry!

[happyhoix]

Frankly I don't understand this fixation with building a big ass wall.

Humans aren't like elk. You can't prevent their migration by building a giant wall around an area. Humans are clever enough they find ways around.

Right now I think the statistic is 40% of illegal immigrants simply fly in through our airports and then don't leave. If we did scrape together a bunch of money for this fabulous wall, expect that number to soar.

For people too poor for a plane ticket, expect a booming business in coyotes willing to cram people into leaky boats to float them north of the border, landing on a deserted part of the beach somewhere in California or Florida. Boats will sink, hundreds of people will drown, and we'll have the kind of migration crisis that Europe is dealing with, with all the Africans and Middle Easterners trying to cross the Mediterranean Sea.

If we blow a ton of money on this wall, expect it to be our Maginot line - expensive, grand, and useless.

If we really want to stop illegal immigration, we need to crack down on people who employ them.
People wouldn't be willing to sneak into the country if they weren't pretty sure they could get a job once they did.  Our area had a high population of illegals prior to 2008 - then the economy slumped, construction jobs vanished, the carpet mill jobs dried up, and the a lot of the illegals LEFT - because they couldn't find work.



 

[midjd]

If we really want to stop illegal immigration, we need to crack down on people who employ them.
People wouldn't be willing to sneak into the country if they weren't pretty sure they could get a job once they did. Our area had a high population of illegals prior to 2008 - then the economy slumped, construction jobs vanished, the carpet mill jobs dried up, and the a lot of the illegals LEFT - because they couldn't find work.

Yup. If states start actively shutting businesses down for knowingly employing illegal immigrants, or upping the fines to more than a slap on the wrist, I think the illegal immigration problem will pretty much solve itself. Right now it's cheaper for most businesses to periodically pay the fines than stop employing immigrants.

There will still be those who get here by any means necessary to escape an even worse situation in their home country, but they're more likely to qualify for asylum.  

And I missed in the OP article where these immigrants are being let loose by U.S. officials to do damage in the parks. I would assume that, if caught, they'd be subject to the same fines and penalties as a citizen. We have no control over what the brochures in Mexico tell them to do.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 16, 2015 7:04:40 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Oct 15, 2015 20:14:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oh, baloney! Obama made it legal in 2010. Do try to keep up. How is it possible that I know this and you don't?

www.nbcnews.com/id/35484383/ns/us_news-life/t/new-law-allows-loaded-guns-national-parks/#.ViBOkoCFPUA

Weltz, thanks for the update.
I sort of wondered about that issue when I wrote it, but I did not want someone to come back and tell me I was wrong about allowing weapons in the park, and I was too lazy to research before posting.
I just remember always reading the signs of no weapons permitted at the front gates.
Now I can carry!

The visitors to our national parks are so much safer, now that you are able to carry in your firearm. Someone who states they are too lazy to research before posting makes me feel so much safer overall.

[Deleted]

someone should put water containers out there if they are worried about cactus's getting cut open for water.  Or better yet make immigration simpler.

[weltschmerz]

Oct 16, 2015 7:04:40 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Oct 15, 2015 20:14:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oh, baloney! Obama made it legal in 2010. Do try to keep up. How is it possible that I know this and you don't?

www.nbcnews.com/id/35484383/ns/us_news-life/t/new-law-allows-loaded-guns-national-parks/#.ViBOkoCFPUA

Weltz, thanks for the update.
I sort of wondered about that issue when I wrote it, but I did not want someone to come back and tell me I was wrong about allowing weapons in the park, and I was too lazy to research before posting.
I just remember always reading the signs of no weapons permitted at the front gates.
Now I can carry!

Well, you certainly sound like a responsible gun owner! Too lazy to research as to where you can legally carry. Congrats.

[grumpyhermit]

Oct 16, 2015 9:50:26 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oct 16, 2015 7:04:40 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Weltz, thanks for the update.
I sort of wondered about that issue when I wrote it, but I did not want someone to come back and tell me I was wrong about allowing weapons in the park, and I was too lazy to research before posting.
I just remember always reading the signs of no weapons permitted at the front gates.
Now I can carry!

Well, you certainly sound like a responsible gun owner! Too lazy to research as to where you can legally carry. Congrats.

Welcome to the US - where gun rights are so important we rely on our Canadian neighbors to tell us where we can legally carry.

[Value Buy]

Oct 16, 2015 8:41:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 16, 2015 7:04:40 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Weltz, thanks for the update.
I sort of wondered about that issue when I wrote it, but I did not want someone to come back and tell me I was wrong about allowing weapons in the park, and I was too lazy to research before posting.
I just remember always reading the signs of no weapons permitted at the front gates.
Now I can carry!

The visitors to our national parks are so much safer, now that you are able to carry in your firearm. Someone who states they are too lazy to research before posting makes me feel so much safer overall.

Well, in all fairness it is only allowed in states that specifically allow you to carry.
Some states do not. THis forces more research in advance of a visit, and you also have to be careful going through the darn airports to get there, or crossing state lines in a vehicle, possibly breaking that state law.
Better that we simply have open carry across the country -thumbsup-Tennesseer, I will be visiting Great Smokies Mountain N.P. next week, am I good to go with the gun?
Save me some research please.
And with it crossing a couple of state lines, am I good for all of them?
See, it does get complicated.

[happyhoix]

Oct 16, 2015 12:22:43 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Oct 16, 2015 8:41:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The visitors to our national parks are so much safer, now that you are able to carry in your firearm. Someone who states they are too lazy to research before posting makes me feel so much safer overall.

Well, in all fairness it is only allowed in states that specifically allow you to carry.
Some states do not. THis forces more research in advance of a visit, and you also have to be careful going through the darn airports to get there, or crossing state lines in a vehicle, possibly breaking that state law.
Better that we simply have open carry across the country -thumbsup-Tennesseer, I will be visiting Great Smokies Mountain N.P. next week, am I good to go with the gun?
Save me some research please.
And with it crossing a couple of state lines, am I good for all of them?
See, it does get complicated.

Oh dear, the Great Smoky Mountains - I went there once in the fall color season and it was bumper to bumper traffic. Nothing like viewing magnificent foliage while sucking in car exhaust fumes! We're still a few weeks before prime leaf peeping time (although this weekend will be a cold snap which might speed it up). Hopefully it won't be too ridiculously crowded for you.

As for if you can take your gun - I would say anyplace in the South would let you take your gun anyplace you want

[Tennesseer]

Oct 16, 2015 12:22:43 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Oct 16, 2015 8:41:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The visitors to our national parks are so much safer, now that you are able to carry in your firearm. Someone who states they are too lazy to research before posting makes me feel so much safer overall.

Well, in all fairness it is only allowed in states that specifically allow you to carry.
Some states do not. THis forces more research in advance of a visit, and you also have to be careful going through the darn airports to get there, or crossing state lines in a vehicle, possibly breaking that state law.
Better that we simply have open carry across the country -thumbsup-Tennesseer, I will be visiting Great Smokies Mountain N.P. next week, am I good to go with the gun?
Save me some research please.
And with it crossing a couple of state lines, am I good for all of them?
See, it does get complicated.

As I am not paranoid about my safety nor do I hunt and therefore don't own a firearm, I have no idea about the gun laws in our national parks. But you better watch out for 'Deliverance' type locations. You know what happened to Ned Beatty in the movie; "I bet you can squeal like a pig. Weeeeeeee!"

[weltschmerz]

Oct 16, 2015 12:22:43 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Oct 16, 2015 8:41:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The visitors to our national parks are so much safer, now that you are able to carry in your firearm. Someone who states they are too lazy to research before posting makes me feel so much safer overall.

Well, in all fairness it is only allowed in states that specifically allow you to carry.
Some states do not. THis forces more research in advance of a visit, and you also have to be careful going through the darn airports to get there, or crossing state lines in a vehicle, possibly breaking that state law.
Better that we simply have open carry across the country -thumbsup-Tennesseer, I will be visiting Great Smokies Mountain N.P. next week, am I good to go with the gun?
Save me some research please.
And with it crossing a couple of state lines, am I good for all of them?
See, it does get complicated.

Oh noes!! How inconvenient! A few clicks of the mouse is just so tiresome!

You want to carry? Do your own research.

It's not enough that you were pointed in the right direction, but you want someone to hold your hand in the process.

[billisonboard]

Oct 16, 2015 8:13:59 GMT -5 midjd said:

... upping the fines to more than a slap on the wrist, I think the illegal immigration problem will pretty much solve itself. Right now it's cheaper for most businesses to periodically pay the fines than stop employing immigrants.

...

Forget fines. Hard time for CEO'S.

[Miss Tequila]

Oct 16, 2015 22:43:48 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oct 16, 2015 12:22:43 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Well, in all fairness it is only allowed in states that specifically allow you to carry.
Some states do not. THis forces more research in advance of a visit, and you also have to be careful going through the darn airports to get there, or crossing state lines in a vehicle, possibly breaking that state law.
Better that we simply have open carry across the country -thumbsup-Tennesseer, I will be visiting Great Smokies Mountain N.P. next week, am I good to go with the gun?
Save me some research please.
And with it crossing a couple of state lines, am I good for all of them?
See, it does get complicated.

Oh noes!! How inconvenient! A few clicks of the mouse is just so tiresome!

You want to carry? Do your own research.

It's not enough that you were pointed in the right direction, but you want someone to hold your hand in the process.

Why do you always have to be so sarcastic in every reply?

[Miss Tequila]

Oct 16, 2015 8:13:59 GMT -5 midjd said:

If we really want to stop illegal immigration, we need to crack down on people who employ them.
People wouldn't be willing to sneak into the country if they weren't pretty sure they could get a job once they did. Our area had a high population of illegals prior to 2008 - then the economy slumped, construction jobs vanished, the carpet mill jobs dried up, and the a lot of the illegals LEFT - because they couldn't find work.

Yup. If states start actively shutting businesses down for knowingly employing illegal immigrants, or upping the fines to more than a slap on the wrist, I think the illegal immigration problem will pretty much solve itself. Right now it's cheaper for most businesses to periodically pay the fines than stop employing immigrants.

There will still be those who get here by any means necessary to escape an even worse situation in their home country, but they're more likely to qualify for asylum.  

And I missed in the OP article where these immigrants are being let loose by U.S. officials to do damage in the parks. I would assume that, if caught, they'd be subject to the same fines and penalties as a citizen. We have no control over what the brochures in Mexico tell them to do.

Lou Barletta tried to go after employers and landlords...didn't work out so well

[weltschmerz]

Oct 21, 2015 20:21:20 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Oct 16, 2015 22:43:48 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oh noes!! How inconvenient! A few clicks of the mouse is just so tiresome!

You want to carry? Do your own research.

It's not enough that you were pointed in the right direction, but you want someone to hold your hand in the process.

Why do you always have to be so sarcastic in every reply?

Don't like my replies? Don't read 'em.

See how easy?

(You don't see how utterly nonsensical it is for a Canadian to educate an American on his gun rights? To add insult to injury, he can't be bothered doing the research to see where he could carry, so he wants me to do it for him?)

[OldCoyote]

Oct 16, 2015 8:51:53 GMT -5 @hickle said:

someone should put water containers out there if they are worried about cactus's getting cut open for water.  Or better yet make immigration simpler.

There are groups that build water stations in the desert.   the cutting open of the cactus I don't think is true.

[OldCoyote]

Oct 16, 2015 12:22:43 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Oct 16, 2015 8:41:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The visitors to our national parks are so much safer, now that you are able to carry in your firearm. Someone who states they are too lazy to research before posting makes me feel so much safer overall.

Well, in all fairness it is only allowed in states that specifically allow you to carry.
Some states do not. THis forces more research in advance of a visit, and you also have to be careful going through the darn airports to get there, or crossing state lines in a vehicle, possibly breaking that state law.
Better that we simply have open carry across the country -thumbsup-Tennesseer, I will be visiting Great Smokies Mountain N.P. next week, am I good to go with the gun?
Save me some research please.
And with it crossing a couple of state lines, am I good for all of them?
See, it does get complicated.

It is against the law to transport weapons across a lot of Indian reservations.   

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2015 14:33:50 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think it's funny how environmental issues are usually only raised by conservatives when they want something.

Build a wall because we're worried about our national park.

Don't put in wind turbines because we're worried about the dear little birds that wind turbines kill.

If we found out tomorrow that national park sat on top of an oil field no conservatives would give a shit about the poor tender cacti. They would be busy lobbying congress to allow oil leases there.

I think it's funny when environmental issues are usually only raised by liberals when they want to take over and control something according to their standard.  Create a national park so it's use can be controlled for allowed behavior only.  Subsidize wind turbines so shore birds aren't in decline because of rising oceans destroying their habitat from AGW.  Killing them with the blades is OK.  If we found out tomorrow that a national park would upset the balance of a Democrat district, it would quietly disappear along with all related e-mails.   

[weltschmerz]

Oct 23, 2015 13:43:41 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Oct 15, 2015 14:33:50 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think it's funny how environmental issues are usually only raised by conservatives when they want something.

Build a wall because we're worried about our national park.

Don't put in wind turbines because we're worried about the dear little birds that wind turbines kill.

If we found out tomorrow that national park sat on top of an oil field no conservatives would give a shit about the poor tender cacti. They would be busy lobbying congress to allow oil leases there.

I think it's funny when environmental issues are usually only raised by liberals when they want to take over and control something according to their standard.  Create a national park so it's use can be controlled for allowed behavior only.  Subsidize wind turbines so shore birds aren't in decline because of rising oceans destroying their habitat from AGW.  Killing them with the blades is OK.  If we found out tomorrow that a national park would upset the balance of a democrat district, it would quietly disappear along with all related e-mails.   

Ummm, yeah, here's the thing. I'm a liberal environmentalist who thinks wind turbines are a terrible idea! Every liberal environmentalist I know is against them. It's bad enough that White Nose Disease has killed off most of the bats in the NE, but the ones that are left are subject to their little lungs exploding when they get near wind turbines. We NEED bats.

So, no. Those blades are NOT OK. Not OK for birds and not OK for bats.

[Deleted]

Oct 23, 2015 14:14:47 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oct 23, 2015 13:43:41 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

I think it's funny when environmental issues are usually only raised by liberals when they want to take over and control something according to their standard.  Create a national park so it's use can be controlled for allowed behavior only.  Subsidize wind turbines so shore birds aren't in decline because of rising oceans destroying their habitat from AGW.  Killing them with the blades is OK.  If we found out tomorrow that a national park would upset the balance of a democrat district, it would quietly disappear along with all related e-mails.   

Ummm, yeah, here's the thing. I'm a liberal environmentalist who thinks wind turbines are a terrible idea! Every liberal environmentalist I know is against them. It's bad enough that White Nose Disease has killed off most of the bats in the NE, but the ones that are left are subject to their little lungs exploding when they get near wind turbines. We NEED bats.

So, no. Those blades are NOT OK. Not OK for birds and not OK for bats.

I was being facetious.  I know all liberal environmentalists' don't fall into a all or nothing category.  Neither are conservatives all environment destroying nut bags as portrayed by happy. 

[happyhoix]

Oct 23, 2015 14:22:06 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Oct 23, 2015 14:14:47 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Ummm, yeah, here's the thing. I'm a liberal environmentalist who thinks wind turbines are a terrible idea! Every liberal environmentalist I know is against them. It's bad enough that White Nose Disease has killed off most of the bats in the NE, but the ones that are left are subject to their little lungs exploding when they get near wind turbines. We NEED bats.

So, no. Those blades are NOT OK. Not OK for birds and not OK for bats.

I was being facetious.  I know all liberal environmentalists' don't fall into a all or nothing category.  Neither are conservatives all environment destroying nut bags as portrayed by happy. 

Sorry? When did I say all conservatives are environment destroying nut bags?

Or are you being facetious again?

[Deleted]

Oct 23, 2015 15:40:53 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Oct 23, 2015 14:22:06 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

I was being facetious.  I know all liberal environmentalists' don't fall into a all or nothing category.  Neither are conservatives all environment destroying nut bags as portrayed by happy. 

Sorry? When did I say all conservatives are environment destroying nut bags?

Or are you being facetious again?

Portrayed, not "said" they are.  Quote; 
If we found out tomorrow that national park sat on top of an oil field no conservatives would give a shit about the poor tender cacti. They would be busy lobbying congress to allow oil leases there. (reply#1)