AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 13, 2015 13:38:28 GMT -5
A concealed carry owner saw a man running from the Waffle House carrying a gun and the cash drawer and ordered him to stop. Instead the suspect raised his gun and fired, so the armed private citizen shot the suspect in self defense. I will admit that as a concealed carry permit holder myself who is usually armed, I would not personally have gotten involved like this. I would have called 911 and reported what I saw, but there are just too many variables in a situation like this to get involved- namely, who else is involved? Are the police going to show up and I'm standing in the parking lot with my gun drawn confusing the police and potentially making myself a target of police gunfire? (Actually, that latter scenario is the one I worry about the most. Odds are pretty good police were called- you do NOT want to be holding a weapon when police arrive) However, my personal feelings aside- good outcome. Waffle House, however isn't exactly appreciative (they're known idiots on the issue of concealed carry), but there you go: www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/12/waffle-house-concealed-permit-holder-saved-day-thanks-no-thanks/
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Oct 13, 2015 16:49:16 GMT -5
from the link: saved who from what? the robber was running out of the restaurant.
lucky this happened at 430am, nobody else was out. there could have been way more casualties.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 13, 2015 22:28:58 GMT -5
Yippee-ki-yay!
So what?
Concealed carry individuals ARE NOT POLICE.
"A concealed carry owner saw a man running from the Waffle House carrying a gun and the cash drawer and ordered him to stop. Instead the suspect raised his gun and fired, so the armed private citizen shot the suspect in self defense."
A private citizen has NO authority to order anyone to do anything.
BTW the woman that shot at suspected shoplifters at Home Depot was weakly charged yesterday. Meanwhile another Home Depot customer was shot dead after a fender bender in the parking lot- take your pick- more guns or less guns.
Too many Rambo wannabes in this country
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 13, 2015 23:25:18 GMT -5
Yippee-ki-yay! So what? Concealed carry individuals ARE NOT POLICE. Don't need to be."A concealed carry owner saw a man running from the Waffle House carrying a gun and the cash drawer and ordered him to stop. Instead the suspect raised his gun and fired, so the armed private citizen shot the suspect in self defense." A private citizen has NO authority to order anyone to do anything. Do you pride yourself on being as spectacularly wrong as humanly possible?BTW the woman that shot at suspected shoplifters at Home Depot was weakly charged yesterday. Meanwhile another Home Depot customer was shot dead after a fender bender in the parking lot- take your pick- more guns or less guns. Link?Too many Rambo wannabes in this country Not nearly enough. Sadly, it was a movie and not a way of life.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 13, 2015 23:26:56 GMT -5
from the link: saved who from what? the robber was running out of the restaurant. lucky this happened at 430am, nobody else was out. there could have been way more casualties. Kinda what I was thinking. I don't know- he didn't elaborate. I'm thinking worst case, this guy got away with some money. To me, if the guy with the gun is running- let 'em go. I would only get involved to protect innocent life, not to chase down someone's cash register that didn't have enough sense to be prepared to shoot the guy themselves.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 13, 2015 23:41:55 GMT -5
A concealed carry owner saw a man running from the Waffle House carrying a gun and the cash drawer and ordered him to stop. Instead the suspect raised his gun and fired, so the armed private citizen shot the suspect in self defense. I will admit that as a concealed carry permit holder myself who is usually armed, I would not personally have gotten involved like this. I would have called 911 and reported what I saw, but there are just too many variables in a situation like this to get involved- namely, who else is involved? Are the police going to show up and I'm standing in the parking lot with my gun drawn confusing the police and potentially making myself a target of police gunfire? (Actually, that latter scenario is the one I worry about the most. Odds are pretty good police were called- you do NOT want to be holding a weapon when police arrive)
However, my personal feelings aside- good outcome. Waffle House, however isn't exactly appreciative (they're known idiots on the issue of concealed carry), but there you go: www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/12/waffle-house-concealed-permit-holder-saved-day-thanks-no-thanks/
Smartest thing you've posted in all the years I've been around.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 15, 2015 10:05:15 GMT -5
A concealed carry owner saw a man running from the Waffle House carrying a gun and the cash drawer and ordered him to stop. Instead the suspect raised his gun and fired, so the armed private citizen shot the suspect in self defense. I will admit that as a concealed carry permit holder myself who is usually armed, I would not personally have gotten involved like this. I would have called 911 and reported what I saw, but there are just too many variables in a situation like this to get involved- namely, who else is involved? Are the police going to show up and I'm standing in the parking lot with my gun drawn confusing the police and potentially making myself a target of police gunfire? (Actually, that latter scenario is the one I worry about the most. Odds are pretty good police were called- you do NOT want to be holding a weapon when police arrive)
However, my personal feelings aside- good outcome. Waffle House, however isn't exactly appreciative (they're known idiots on the issue of concealed carry), but there you go: www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/12/waffle-house-concealed-permit-holder-saved-day-thanks-no-thanks/
Smartest thing you've posted in all the years I've been around.
You should go re-read all my posts. There's a LOT of brilliance in them.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 15, 2015 10:09:58 GMT -5
In all seriousness, the vast majority of people that carry (as evidenced by the statistics) lawfully are not looking for an opportunity to get in a shoot out. I think I speak for most of us when I say that we believe in concealed carry because the more widespread it is, and the more widely known it is that people are carrying-- the less criminal activity you're going to have period. This is not our opinion. This is well established fact.
It's interesting that people that believe the United States is a wild-west, gun-slinging nightmare are victims of a US government propaganda campaign to freak out foreign enemies. Puts "Red Dawn" in a whole new light-- you wonder if DoD didn't order it? Wolverines!!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 10:32:40 GMT -5
from the link: saved who from what? the robber was running out of the restaurant. lucky this happened at 430am, nobody else was out. there could have been way more casualties. so you are saying that if things had been different they could have been different?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 15, 2015 19:17:31 GMT -5
Smartest thing you've posted in all the years I've been around.
You should go re-read all my posts. There's a LOT of brilliance in them. A legend in your own mind. But only yours....
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 15, 2015 21:07:51 GMT -5
Yippee-ki-yay! So what? Concealed carry individuals ARE NOT POLICE. Don't need to be."A concealed carry owner saw a man running from the Waffle House carrying a gun and the cash drawer and ordered him to stop. Instead the suspect raised his gun and fired, so the armed private citizen shot the suspect in self defense." A private citizen has NO authority to order anyone to do anything. Do you pride yourself on being as spectacularly wrong as humanly possible?BTW the woman that shot at suspected shoplifters at Home Depot was weakly charged yesterday. Meanwhile another Home Depot customer was shot dead after a fender bender in the parking lot- take your pick- more guns or less guns. Link?Too many Rambo wannabes in this country Not nearly enough. Sadly, it was a movie and not a way of life. While this person will probably not be charged in that state- they were still acting improperly with a weapon- getting out of the vehicle and approaching a criminal that was leaving the premises- any firearms instructor will tell you not to do it- this could have gone wrong in so many ways. The ends do not justify the means. Like when it did here: www.khou.com/story/news/2015/09/27/one-man-injured-after-carjacking-shooting-at-gas-station/72923278/Houston police responded to a shooting call around 11:15 p.m. Saturday at a Valero gas station on Jensen Drive at Reid Street in north Houston. Officials say two men jumped another man in the gas station parking lot and took the victim's Chevrolet pickup truck. Police say a witness then pulled out a gun and began shooting at the suspects, accidentally hitting the carjacking victim in the head. Missing link: www.theoaklandpress.com/general-news/20151013/charges-filed-against-woman-who-shot-at-fleeing-shoplifters-in-home-depot-parking-lotI recommend gun owners that wish to engage possible criminals sign up and get a badge- we need more police and they are hiring.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 21:44:17 GMT -5
I am pro-"gun rights", pro-carry, and pro-"use when necessary"... Once the bad guy shot at him he had every right to return fire.
Problem is... the bad guy had every right to fire once he saw a weapon was pointed at him FIRST. He has a right to his own self defense as this was a separate issue from the robbery which had already concluded and he had exited the Waffle House.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 16, 2015 19:41:31 GMT -5
I am pro-"gun rights", pro-carry, and pro-"use when necessary"... Once the bad guy shot at him he had every right to return fire. Problem is... the bad guy had every right to fire once he saw a weapon was pointed at him FIRST. He has a right to his own self defense as this was a separate issue from the robbery which had already concluded and he had exited the Waffle House. That's the pickle. I wonder what was he going to do if the guy kept walking away or gave him the finger? I fear situations where someone with a gun gets involved without knowing exactly what is going on, who is the criminal or victim, etc. And quite possible there is the situation with two armed people getting into it- now there are three. Can you imagine the chaos in a movie theater if there was a gunshot and 8 idiots stood up and pulled out guns?
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Oct 16, 2015 21:21:18 GMT -5
You carrying a concealed weapon to defend yourself if necessary or defend innocent - emphasis on defend- I'm fine with it. The same you and your gun interfering with law enforcement or acting as an agent of the law enforcement- not fine with it! There is a distinction that many don't make. I understand and agree with Paul's point and statement on the mater but how many of those that have the CCP understand that and adhere to that?
While the statement " the more guns, the safer it is" it might be true, it holds only and only if those in cause have the necessary training. If military service would be mandatory in U.S. for men and women alike, carrying a weapon would not be an issue due to the fact that ALL would have the necessary training. Buying a gun and going to the shooting range even on regular basis it does not make one an expert. It doesn't even give you the basis about how and when is appropriate to interfere and use the weapon.
Declaring and all out carry legal for all citizens it is just one step away from anarchy so pretty much the opposite of what some claim on the mater.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 21:26:44 GMT -5
You carrying a concealed weapon to defend yourself if necessary or defend innocent - emphasis on defend- I'm fine with it. The same you and your gun interfering with law enforcement or acting as an agent of the law enforcement- not fine with it! There is a distinction that many don't make. I understand and agree with Paul's point and statement on the mater but how many of those that have the CCP understand that and adhere to that? While the statement " the more guns, the safer it is" it might be true, it holds only and only if those in cause have the necessary training. If military service would be mandatory in U.S. for men and women alike, carrying a weapon would not be an issue due to the fact that ALL would have the necessary training.Buying a gun and going to the shooting range even on regular basis it does not make one an expert. It doesn't even give you the basis about how and when is appropriate to interfere and use the weapon. Declaring and all out carry legal for all citizens it is just one step away from anarchy so pretty much the opposite of what some claim on the mater. I would bet money that the top 50% of concealed carry can outshoot the bottom 50% of police for accuracy. I would also bet money that the top 50% of cops are not much better if any then the top 50% of concealed carriers. I do not think cops are very trained shooters. They miss quite often.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 16, 2015 21:34:37 GMT -5
... While the statement " the more guns, the safer it is" it might be true, it holds only and only if those in cause have the necessary training. If military service would be mandatory in U.S. for men and women alike, carrying a weapon would not be an issue due to the fact that ALL would have the necessary training. ... You mean if there was something like a well regulated Militia?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 16, 2015 21:42:34 GMT -5
... While the statement " the more guns, the safer it is" it might be true, it holds only and only if those in cause have the necessary training. If military service would be mandatory in U.S. for men and women alike, carrying a weapon would not be an issue due to the fact that ALL would have the necessary training. ... You mean if there was something like a well regulated Militia? Yeah, kinda like that. That whole Second Amendment thing.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Oct 16, 2015 21:43:36 GMT -5
I see you didn't read all my post! Cops receive training for each situation where the use of a weapon is necessary. It is drilled into their heads when and why to draw their weapon. Joe Schmoe, might be a 99.9% accuracy shooter but he just draws his weapon when he sees somebody running through the parking lot(hypothetical example!) My point was that one needs to know WHEN to act and not just shoot accurately. Durring my training in the military, accuracy had its place however was not the most important issue. Timing, reaction speed, method of engagement, immobilizing/disabling versus annihilating the target were above accuracy of the shots. For that and that alone were trained the sharp shooters/snipers.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Oct 16, 2015 21:48:12 GMT -5
"You mean if there was something like a well regulated Militia? Yeah, kinda like that. That whole Second Amendment thing." you our mean there is more to that pesky second amendment than "the right to bear arms..."? Who would've thunk it?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 21:53:04 GMT -5
I see you didn't read all my post! Cops receive training for each situation where the use of a weapon is necessary. It is drilled into their heads when and why to draw their weapon. Joe Schmoe, might be a 99.9% accuracy shooter but he just draws his weapon when he sees somebody running through the parking lot(hypothetical example!) My point was that one needs to know WHEN to act and not just shoot accurately. Durring my training in the military, accuracy had its place however was not the most important issue. Timing, reaction speed, method of engagement, immobilizing/disabling versus annihilating the target were above accuracy of the shots. For that and that alone were trained the sharp shooters/snipers. I would bet money that most concealed carriers know are just as responsible on when as most police officers are. You can post examples of concealed carriers acting wrongly and I can post examples of cops acting wrongly. Police are taken from the same population as concealed carriers and proportionately probably no more responsible. I would argue the ideas that cause many to choose police work are ideas that push them to act with power first.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 16, 2015 21:53:22 GMT -5
You carrying a concealed weapon to defend yourself if necessary or defend innocent - emphasis on defend- I'm fine with it. The same you and your gun interfering with law enforcement or acting as an agent of the law enforcement- not fine with it! There is a distinction that many don't make. I understand and agree with Paul's point and statement on the mater but how many of those that have the CCP understand that and adhere to that? While the statement " the more guns, the safer it is" it might be true, it holds only and only if those in cause have the necessary training. If military service would be mandatory in U.S. for men and women alike, carrying a weapon would not be an issue due to the fact that ALL would have the necessary training.Buying a gun and going to the shooting range even on regular basis it does not make one an expert. It doesn't even give you the basis about how and when is appropriate to interfere and use the weapon. Declaring and all out carry legal for all citizens it is just one step away from anarchy so pretty much the opposite of what some claim on the mater. I would bet money that the top 50% of concealed carry can outshoot the bottom 50% of police for accuracy. I would also bet money that the top 50% of cops are not much better if any then the top 50% of concealed carriers. I do not think cops are very trained shooters. They miss quite often. They may miss quite often in the field when under fire themselves, but that does not mean they are necessarily "poorly trained." My guess is that most have to qualify at least annually (and likely more often than that, particularly with their service pistol) for every weapon they carry. I would also guess that the typical concealed-carry holder does not come close to that. Personally, I think you would be making a sucker's bet.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 21:54:20 GMT -5
"You mean if there was something like a well regulated Militia? Yeah, kinda like that. That whole Second Amendment thing." you our mean there is more to that pesky second amendment than "the right to bear arms..."? Who would've thunk it? Not me. We have a right to bear arms. We have a right to self defense. There is not more to it then that.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 16, 2015 21:56:11 GMT -5
You do realize the first thirteen words were put there for a reason, right?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 21:57:14 GMT -5
I would bet money that the top 50% of concealed carry can outshoot the bottom 50% of police for accuracy. I would also bet money that the top 50% of cops are not much better if any then the top 50% of concealed carriers. I do not think cops are very trained shooters. They miss quite often. They may miss quite often in the field when under fire themselves, but that does not mean they are necessarily "poorly trained." My guess is that most have to qualify at least annually (and likely more often than that, particularly with their service pistol) for every weapon they carry. I would also guess that the typical concealed-carry holder does not come close to that. Personally, I think you would be making a sucker's bet. Concealed carriers care about guns, that is why they choose to carry. Cops might or might not care about guns. If you "miss quite often" you are either poorly trained or a poor learner or something.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 16, 2015 22:00:24 GMT -5
Or...you may be under fire yourself from someone running and hiding. Neither of which a target at the shooting range would do to you.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 22:00:25 GMT -5
You do realize the first thirteen words were put there for a reason, right? I also know regulated does not refer to government regulations. At the time "well regulated" meant "properly working".
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 22:02:14 GMT -5
Or...you may be under fire yourself from someone running and hiding. Neither of which a target at the shooting range would do to you.
Facts are what they are. If you think cops are well trained, have at it.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 16, 2015 22:05:00 GMT -5
You do realize the first thirteen words were put there for a reason, right? I also know regulated does not refer to government regulations. At the time "well regulated" meant "properly working". What is so difficult about using all the words?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 16, 2015 22:37:42 GMT -5
You do realize the first thirteen words were put there for a reason, right? I also know regulated does not refer to government regulations. At the time "well regulated" meant "properly working". If you would like to change "properly working" to "properly trained and disciplined" I would agree with you. Still, the clause refers to the militia, as I think you know. They did not think about registering guns. There was no need and it would have served no purpose. Everybody had guns, and the science did not exist to trace them or test them for ballistics. The Second Amendment itself referred only to the necessity of being able to raise a defensive force if necessary. It had nothing to do with CREATING an individual right to keep and bear arms. You cannot thus base an argument for an individual right to own a gun for whatever purpose the owner wished on the Second Amendment.
And as I recall, in the dissent to the Heller decision, Justice Stevens pointed out that language specifically approving an individual right was proposed. Certain states had such language in their own constitutions, and argued for it to be adopted. It was not. That language was defeated and was not included in the Second Amendment itself.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 16, 2015 22:40:24 GMT -5
So who is in favor of the new NRA plan and state enacted crazy where all restrictions and training have been thrown out the window so that anyone without a legal reason to not possess a gun can legally carry it? Anyone with a pulse can buy and carry a weapon- considering the makeup of Americans that scares the shit out of me. So ironic- I carry a firearm not because I am scared of criminals, but because I am afraid of nutball gun owners that tend to road rage. I have a solid plan- like military- one of these shits even points at me I am running them over or dumping lead into them until I am out of ammo. That's what is required in this country. Not taking chances. Don't screw with this 'Liberal'
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