Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 8, 2015 11:46:52 GMT -5
These are reasonable complaints. Put excerpts from these into an OP instead of minutiae about one word in a figure caption.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 8, 2015 13:20:21 GMT -5
You know, I've been giving this some thought (shocking - I know). Remember the saying "The pen is mightier than the sword"? The English language is amazingly imprecise. Context is so key to the overall conversation, that it is easy to manipulate the intended message simply by changing the context in which it is delivered. We have some pretty epic discussions around this all the time. Consider "Illegal Immigrant" vs "Undocumented Immigrant" or "Stay at home Mom" vs "Domestic Engineer". The meaning is the same, but the hidden message between each phrase is very different. I'm one of the first to say we've become way to PC as a society and I hope to hell the pendulum swings back because we're becoming a nation of whiny wusses. HOWEVER when we're talking an educational textbook, you better make damn sure that nasty parts of our history are not glossed over or presented in a way that lessens the shock of what was done. Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. (ok - off my soapbox now) I understand that words carry strong connotations. Furthermore I admit that, absent any context, the word "worker" carries the connotation of a paid worker. "Immigrant" has no connotation as far as I'm concerned. Hence, "worker". Is "paid worker" a strong connotation? Is "slave worker" an oxymoron or an absurdity ("prancing cowboy" is one of my favourites from a novelist who took "prancing" [n. to walk or move about spiritedly; to strut about] far too literally)? No. Is context provided for "worker"? Absolutely. "The Atlantic Slave Trade..." at the very top of the paragraph. Are there other reasons why McGraw-Hill might have used "workers" instead of "slaves"? Absolutely. See my last post. Supposing we count this as an unacceptable omission, is one word in one caption sufficient to justify a claim of historical revisionism? It's not necessary to look at what else the textbook has to say about the slave trade? I'd love to see a defensible case for 'Yes'. I see no reason why McGraw-Hill couldn't add this to the list of errata (despite not being an error) for the next edition, but pulling the textbook out of classrooms? Maybe the kids can burn them in the school courtyard and learn all about combustion so it won't be a complete waste of time and money. Tennesseer actually beat me to the punch, I've been trying to find some links that go over how TX (which we all know is so logic driven) has an undue influence on what materials are published in textbooks. Normally I would agree with not going overboard on reactions, but these are textbooks for crying outloud. Personally, I sure as hell hope some serious thought would go into how we are programming teaching our children. Either the publisher is absolutely clueless about how this was presented (in which case they have no business in the business) or it was a deliberate attempt to minimize the subject matter. There may be another explanation, but I sure as heck hope there's some kind of internal review process on freaking textbooks. One way or another there seems to be a fail here.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 8, 2015 13:44:14 GMT -5
Deliberate attempt to minimize the subject matter.
You should see what they do with evolution.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 16:21:53 GMT -5
This is one more example of why education should be decentralized and why parents should have more choice on what school to send their children to.
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steff
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Post by steff on Oct 8, 2015 18:55:53 GMT -5
I understand that words carry strong connotations. Furthermore I admit that, absent any context, the word "worker" carries the connotation of a paid worker. "Immigrant" has no connotation as far as I'm concerned. Hence, "worker". Is "paid worker" a strong connotation? Is "slave worker" an oxymoron or an absurdity ("prancing cowboy" is one of my favourites from a novelist who took "prancing" [n. to walk or move about spiritedly; to strut about] far too literally)? No. Is context provided for "worker"? Absolutely. "The Atlantic Slave Trade..." at the very top of the paragraph. Are there other reasons why McGraw-Hill might have used "workers" instead of "slaves"? Absolutely. See my last post. Supposing we count this as an unacceptable omission, is one word in one caption sufficient to justify a claim of historical revisionism? It's not necessary to look at what else the textbook has to say about the slave trade? I'd love to see a defensible case for 'Yes'. I see no reason why McGraw-Hill couldn't add this to the list of errata (despite not being an error) for the next edition, but pulling the textbook out of classrooms? Maybe the kids can burn them in the school courtyard and learn all about combustion so it won't be a complete waste of time and money. Tennesseer actually beat me to the punch, I've been trying to find some links that go over how TX (which we all know is so logic driven) has an undue influence on what materials are published in textbooks. Normally I would agree with not going overboard on reactions, but these are textbooks for crying outloud. Personally, I sure as hell hope some serious thought would go into how we are programming teaching our children. Either the publisher is absolutely clueless about how this was presented (in which case they have no business in the business) or it was a deliberate attempt to minimize the subject matter. There may be another explanation, but I sure as heck hope there's some kind of internal review process on freaking textbooks. One way or another there seems to be a fail here. two years ago, I warned everyone about Texas having massive influence over the history textbooks nationwide. I told everyone what a clusterfuck it was having a religious lobby group in charge of writing the textbooks. Warned everyone that the textbooks were rewriting history & altering history to fit their views. Hate to say I told you so....but I frigging told you so. (mythical "you"...not you YOU)
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steff
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Post by steff on Oct 8, 2015 18:57:47 GMT -5
This is one more example of why education should be decentralized and why parents should have more choice on what school to send their children to. Doesn't have flip to do with the school, but with the textbooks. Which BTW, Texas has MASSIVE influence over nationwide.
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steff
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Post by steff on Oct 8, 2015 18:59:37 GMT -5
Texas allowed a religious lobby group to rewrite the history textbook. Because of the size of Texas & # of books they order, it affects textbook content NATIONWIDE.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 8, 2015 19:07:15 GMT -5
Texas allowed a religious lobby group to rewrite the history textbook. Because of the size of Texas & # of books they order, it affects textbook content NATIONWIDE. At least you now know how it feels to have the LGBT lobby cram their agenda down people's throats. And they only represent 3.5% of the population. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, but I do hope posters will remember this thread any time they think "Get over it." is a good rebuttal.
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steff
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Post by steff on Oct 8, 2015 19:13:32 GMT -5
Texas allowed a religious lobby group to rewrite the history textbook. Because of the size of Texas & # of books they order, it affects textbook content NATIONWIDE. At least you now know how it feels to have the LGBT lobby cram their agenda down people's throats. And they only represent 3.5% of the population. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, but I do hope posters will remember this thread any time they think "Get over it." is a good rebuttal. What I want to say to this would get me a vacation from here. So let me just say "you're number 1" and leave it at that. oh wait, didn't hear it? Let me say it in stereo....both hands. I tried to learn sign language, but have only mastered one finger on each hand.
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imanangel
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Post by imanangel on Oct 8, 2015 20:32:35 GMT -5
Tennesseer actually beat me to the punch, I've been trying to find some links that go over how TX (which we all know is so logic driven) has an undue influence on what materials are published in textbooks. Normally I would agree with not going overboard on reactions, but these are textbooks for crying outloud. Personally, I sure as hell hope some serious thought would go into how we are programming teaching our children. Either the publisher is absolutely clueless about how this was presented (in which case they have no business in the business) or it was a deliberate attempt to minimize the subject matter. There may be another explanation, but I sure as heck hope there's some kind of internal review process on freaking textbooks. One way or another there seems to be a fail here. two years ago, I warned everyone about Texas having massive influence over the history textbooks nationwide. I told everyone what a clusterfuck it was having a religious lobby group in charge of writing the textbooks. Warned everyone that the textbooks were rewriting history & altering history to fit their views. Hate to say I told you so....but I frigging told you so. (mythical "you"...not you YOU) This is pretty much the biggest reason I have not transferred my license to teach here in Texas. I cannot bring myself to teach the way a lot of schools in Texas want me to teach. I cannot "white wash" history. I cannot teach to the test. I cannot teach creationism in science class. The philosophy of education in most of the school districts I have had experience with here goes against MY philosophy of education.
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imanangel
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Post by imanangel on Oct 8, 2015 20:38:43 GMT -5
Texas allowed a religious lobby group to rewrite the history textbook. Because of the size of Texas & # of books they order, it affects textbook content NATIONWIDE. At least you now know how it feels to have the LGBT lobby cram their agenda down people's throats. And they only represent 3.5% of the population. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, but I do hope posters will remember this thread any time they think "Get over it." is a good rebuttal. I can't believe there are people who honestly can't see the difference between religious groups rewriting history and LGBT fighting for equal rights under the law.
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steff
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Post by steff on Oct 8, 2015 20:44:36 GMT -5
two years ago, I warned everyone about Texas having massive influence over the history textbooks nationwide. I told everyone what a clusterfuck it was having a religious lobby group in charge of writing the textbooks. Warned everyone that the textbooks were rewriting history & altering history to fit their views. Hate to say I told you so....but I frigging told you so. (mythical "you"...not you YOU) This is pretty much the biggest reason I have not transferred my license to teach here in Texas. I cannot bring myself to teach the way a lot of schools in Texas want me to teach. I cannot "white wash" history. I cannot teach to the test. I cannot teach creationism in science class. The philosophy of education in most of the school districts I have had experience with here goes against MY philosophy of education. One of my aunts has been a teacher in Houston for 30 years. CHOSE to teach in a low income area & had taught at the same school for over 20 years. She decided to retire last year because of how much teaching had changed and how much she disliked the way it was being done now.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2015 2:27:09 GMT -5
At least you now know how it feels to have the LGBT lobby cram their agenda down people's throats. And they only represent 3.5% of the population. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, but I do hope posters will remember this thread any time they think "Get over it." is a good rebuttal. I can't believe there are people who honestly can't see the difference between religious groups rewriting history and LGBT fighting for equal rights under the law. That's your problem. The extent of "rewriting history" by "religious groups" (which aren't all in fact religious groups) here is pressuring publishers to emphasize certain things they think are important and de-emphasize or exclude others contrary to their interests. If this isn't ringing a bell by now, well...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2015 8:35:53 GMT -5
This is one more example of why education should be decentralized and why parents should have more choice on what school to send their children to. Doesn't have flip to do with the school, but with the textbooks. Which BTW, Texas has MASSIVE influence over nationwide. You like big centralized government making decisions, don't you?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2015 8:44:53 GMT -5
Doesn't have flip to do with the school, but with the textbooks. Which BTW, Texas has MASSIVE influence over nationwide. You like big centralized government making decisions, don't you? Frankly, if the choice was between a big centralized, sterile, non religious, government I have a say in, making the decisions, or a smaller, regional, religiously biased government I don't have a say in making the decision... I'm voting for bigger...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2015 8:53:19 GMT -5
You like big centralized government making decisions, don't you? Frankly, if the choice was between a big centralized, sterile, non religious, government I have a say in, making the decisions, or a smaller, regional, religiously biased government I don't have a say in making the decision... I'm voting for bigger... The choices you gave though are not the actual choice. You do not have a say in the national text book issue. There are people more organized and more passionate about the issue then you, that haven't changed it. You most likely would be no different. On a smaller scale at a local school board you would have a decent chance at changing things. If you failed there and cared strongly enough you could vote with your feet and move to a different school district that matched your view. It is a lot harder to move out of the USA. Do you think the big centralized school industry is working for most students? The $30k in debt they leave college with. The high rate of failure to graduate for some minorities, etc?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2015 9:12:35 GMT -5
I have a say in my national representatives. I can elect them, campaign for them, call them up and express my pleasure/displeasure, protest. I have no rights to do the same with Texas officials... yet Texas officials currently have mass influence over the textbook industry. Texas doesn't make those decisions locally. They are one of the few states with a STATE curriculum. Which is why they are given so much power in the construction of curriculum... when they choose to buy, they buy a lot...
It isn't just about centralized schools. I purchase some textbooks even as a homeschooler. Luckily Pearson makes a specific Texas Edition of their Biology, so that I wasn't relegated to that being the only choice, I could still order their non-texas bio.... can you imagine being reduced to having to teach Texas's version of biology...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2015 9:18:00 GMT -5
I have a say in my national representatives. I can elect them, campaign for them, call them up and express my pleasure/displeasure, protest. I have no rights to do the same with Texas officials... yet Texas officials currently have mass influence over the textbook industry. Texas doesn't make those decisions locally. They are one of the few states with a STATE curriculum. Which is why they are given so much power in the construction of curriculum... when they choose to buy, they buy a lot...
It isn't just about centralized schools. I purchase some textbooks even as a homeschooler. Luckily Pearson makes a specific Texas Edition of their Biology, so that I wasn't relegated to that being the only choice, I could still order their non-texas bio.... can you imagine being reduced to having to teach Texas's version of biology... Please get rid of Lyndsey Graham. He is a war mongering nut. That is if you have any say, please do that.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Oct 9, 2015 10:23:42 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2015 12:43:49 GMT -5
I'm thinking of the black kid in the class looking down at the caption where some word he can't read has been stickered over with "slaves". Don't forget, Jimmy. Your ancestors they brought over weren't real workers, they were slaves. Slaves to white men. Don't you forget that. Don't call them anything besides that. We have plenty of stickers, Jimmy. He'll be feeling like a million dollars. On the plus side, maybe he wasn't aware his race was enslaved in colonial America prior to reading that sticker. It's not as if the whole of society has bludgeoned that fact into his head every day of the past 13 years.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 9, 2015 12:45:28 GMT -5
I'm thinking of the black kid in the class looking down at the caption where some word he can't read has been stickered over with "slaves". Don't forget, Jimmy. Your ancestors they brought over weren't real workers, they were slaves. Slaves to white men. Don't you forget that. Don't call them anything besides that. We have plenty of stickers, Jimmy. He'll be feeling like a million dollars. On the plus side, maybe he wasn't aware his race was enslaved in colonial America prior to reading that sticker. It's not as if the whole of society has bludgeoned that fact into his head every day of the past 13 years. Are you suggesting that schools not teach about slavery so we don't hurt black kids feelings?
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Oct 9, 2015 12:57:22 GMT -5
The victors have always written history.
But honestly, this was so long ago and this is Texas...which is almost half aboriginal Mexican. Complicated world.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2015 13:12:32 GMT -5
I'm thinking of the black kid in the class looking down at the caption where some word he can't read has been stickered over with "slaves". Don't forget, Jimmy. Your ancestors they brought over weren't real workers, they were slaves. Slaves to white men. Don't you forget that. Don't call them anything besides that. We have plenty of stickers, Jimmy. He'll be feeling like a million dollars. On the plus side, maybe he wasn't aware his race was enslaved in colonial America prior to reading that sticker. It's not as if the whole of society has bludgeoned that fact into his head every day of the past 13 years. Are you suggesting that schools not teach about slavery so we don't hurt black kids feelings? I'm saying that stickering over "workers" with "slaves" on an image caption sends a strong message, and it's not the one you want it to be. The reprinting of the textbooks in their entirety is a waste of paper, but if the publisher is willing to do it for free, no harm done.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Oct 9, 2015 13:21:47 GMT -5
Sometimes I wonder, If these wonderful slaves had not been brought here, where would they be?
There are two sides to every coin.
Of course it was wrong, but it was of its time...they didn't know better.
Still, where would they be?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 9, 2015 13:24:26 GMT -5
Sometimes I wonder, If these wonderful slaves had not been brought here, where would they be? There are two sides to every coin. Of course it was wrong, but it was of its time...they didn't know better. Still, where would they be? Buried.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2015 13:36:16 GMT -5
The sticker would not be for a word... Most likely it would replace the entire caption.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2015 13:38:38 GMT -5
The sticker would not be for a word... Most likely it would replace the entire caption. Let's hope so.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Oct 9, 2015 13:48:43 GMT -5
Sometimes I wonder, If these wonderful slaves had not been brought here, where would they be? There are two sides to every coin. Of course it was wrong, but it was of its time...they didn't know better. Still, where would they be? Buried. We will all be one day. That is the great eqaulizer...but your glass is still half full. Long may you run.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 10, 2015 0:20:53 GMT -5
Sometimes I wonder, If these wonderful slaves had not been brought here, where would they be? There are two sides to every coin. Of course it was wrong, but it was of its time...they didn't know better. Still, where would they be? Buried. Buried free
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 12, 2015 14:56:24 GMT -5
Sometimes I wonder, If these wonderful slaves had not been brought here, where would they be? There are two sides to every coin. Of course it was wrong, but it was of its time...they didn't know better. Still, where would they be? I wonder where the entire continent of Africa would be had the biggest and strongest not been ripped from their society. They might be an economic and military powerhouse today.
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