Technology Sucks

[Virgil Showlion]

Virgil has a nice big 30" monitor. It supports resolutions up to 2560x1600. Virgil is happy.

After 8 happy years, the monitor fails and Virgil needs a new one. Every dark cloud has a silver lining; technology can only have improved during the past 8 years.

Virgil goes to Best Buy. No monitors supporting 2560x1600. The best they can offer is 1920x1440. But Best Buy guy says that a Best Buy not too far away has an ASUS 4K monitor that supports resolutions up 3840x2880. Virgil heads over to that Best Buy and buys the monitor.

Virgil brings the monitor home. But what's this? The monitor doesn't support DVI inputs, and that's all his video cards will output to. The monitor only takes HDMI (which stands for "Hundreds of Damned Monitor Inputs"). It's back to the Best Buy.

"I need a DVI-to-HDMI converter cable for my monitor."
"No problem. This will do the trick."

Another $35.00, but what the heck.

Back to Virgil's place. The cable fits, and the image looks... like a dog's breakfast. This is 2560x1440, the "recommended resolution" according to Windows. Virgil's video card won't support anything higher than 2560x1600. True, the native resolution on this new monitor is 3840x2880, but the downsampled version shouldn't look this bad.

Virgil sets the resolution to 1920x1440, which is smaller than he wants, but image is at least clear now.

Virgil goes on to geeksquad.com to chat with a "geek".

"Hello, geek. Why does 2560x1440 look like crap on my monitor?"
"Your monitor doesn't support that resolution."
"It's in its list of supported resolutions. Why is that the resolution Windows is recommending?"
"Your video card doesn't support that resolution."
"It supported it just fine with my old monitor."
"I don't know, then."
"OK, fine. Thanks, geek."

Virgil is now at the mercy of the Internetz to diagnose his monitor woes. He discovers that there are in fact two DVI standards: single and dual DVI. His monitor only supports 2560x1440 from dual-DVI sources. Virgil's video card outputs dual-DVI, but the cable he's bought is single DVI. Hence he needs yet another cable.

He searches Best Buy. They don't carry it. No retail store does. Only shady online retailers.

Will this cable fix his problem? Will 2560x1440 still look like a dog's breakfast? What happened to the good old days when monitors took VGA and didn't give a snow leopard's fuzzy arse what the native resolution was? What happened to the good old analog VGA cables before the madness of DVI, DVI-D, HDMI 1.2, HDMI 1.4, and the two other competing standards? Why does Virgil's Macbook accept none of these and output only to yet another cable?

Nobody knows.

Why? Why did you leave me, old monitor? Come back! I didn't mean what I said! I can change!

Technology sucks.

[Jaguar]

Try Amazon.ca or Tiger Direct, they help me with my stuff. For what it's worth, FutureShop was always better than Best Buy.

[mroped]

Virgil needs a bigger hammer! Virgil can have my 10# sledge. If that doesn't work, we'll find a bigger one!

[Jaguar]

Like this ?

www.amazon.ca/DVI-D-Male-Dual-Link-Cable/dp/B003QNDEGA


www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/cables-to-go-cables-to-go-6-5-ft-dvi-d-m-f-dual-link-digital-video-extension-cable-26950/10196577.aspx


www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=1340_1440_101

[wyouser]

There is a man after my heart! Yes, He said it! He printed it! He posted it! Technology sucks!!!!! Like Donald Trump, he ventures away from the politically correct!  Virgil,

[ken a.k.a OMK]

1. Virgil should have anticipated this and bought 2 monitors in the beginning.
Or 2. Virgil should have kept up with changing technology and updated everything at appropriate times.
Or 3. Virgil should invite me up to fix his beloved old monitor.

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 5, 2015 16:25:33 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

Like this ?

www.amazon.ca/DVI-D-Male-Dual-Link-Cable/dp/B003QNDEGA


www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/cables-to-go-cables-to-go-6-5-ft-dvi-d-m-f-dual-link-digital-video-extension-cable-26950/10196577.aspx


www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=1340_1440_101

Wouldn't it be nice if I could order off of amazon.ca?

Nope! Sucka! Technology has pooched that too!

"Sorry! We experienced an internal error while trying to place your order. We'll look into the problem as soon as possible."

Serves you right for thinking technology would help you. Now just wait a few weeks to find out that their "internal error" is the same internal error that's exposed your credit card info to John von Hacker.

[Jaguar]

Oct 5, 2015 16:37:35 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Oct 5, 2015 16:25:33 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

Like this ?

www.amazon.ca/DVI-D-Male-Dual-Link-Cable/dp/B003QNDEGA


www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/cables-to-go-cables-to-go-6-5-ft-dvi-d-m-f-dual-link-digital-video-extension-cable-26950/10196577.aspx


www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=1340_1440_101

Wouldn't it be nice if I could order off of amazon.ca?

Nope! Sucka! Technology has pooched that too!

"Sorry! We experienced an internal error while trying to place your order. We'll look into the problem as soon as possible."

Serves you right for thinking technology would help you. Now just wait a few weeks to find out that their "internal error" is the same internal error that's exposed your credit card info to John von Hacker.

I order off of Amazon.ca all the time. My niece's husband does the order and pays with his credit card. I'm waiting on a delivery right now from Amazon.ca. What's your freaking problem hey ?

[Jaguar]

Shit I gotta teach him everything.

[Virgil Showlion]

I tried it again with IE, and the order went through. Sometimes my FF plugins interfere with the proper function of websites. It's been known to happen.

Now I just have to wait until sometime between October 8 and October 22 to get the adapter that lets me find out whether my new monitor supports a fuzzy 2560x1440 resolution--only slightly worse than what I had before--or if I'm stuck with a fuzzy 1920x1080 resolution, which is considerably worse than what I had before.

Why don't I upgrade my video card, you ask? Because it would requiring upgrading my mother board.

Why don't I upgrade my mother board? Because all modern video cards and mother boards are 64-bit, which would also require me to purchase a 64-bit processor, 64-bit OS, new RAM, new sound card, network card, etc. compatible with my new 64-bit setup.

Why don't I do all of this? Because it would cost $4.5K just to replace what I already have.

Technology sucks.

[Jaguar]

I'm looking to upgrade my mother board, processor, video card and Ram someday. BUT Windows 10 is happy right now with my computer and I don't want to upset the damn apple cart again.

[Jaguar]

Virgil Showlion, why are you only using 32-bit technology, I couldn't get out of 32-bit fast enough ?

[dannylion]

Technology is shiny and makes pleasant noises. I have no idea how to use most of the features of my technology devices, but they are shiny, so they are pleasing to me.   

I welcome the robot overlords and offer them my allegiance (as long as they arrive bearing shiny things--no shiny things, then pitchforks and angry villagers).

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 5, 2015 17:10:39 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

Virgil Showlion, why are you only using 32-bit technology, I couldn't get out of 32-bit fast enough ?

Why?

Name one thing you can do with 64-bit that you couldn't do with 32-bit.

Or I'll make it even easier: Name one thing you can do better (e.g. significantly faster) with 64-bit.

Are you running high-volume servers out of your home? Do you have to check 100 million e-mails every second? Are you cracking RSA? Running climate change simulations? Running gene correlations? Rendering 3D movies?

Seriously, of what benefit is 64-bit architecture to you?

[Jaguar]

This is how I learned it.....64 bits of information was better than 32 bits of information. It's faster, it's better, and well I just learned 64 was way better.....now 128 will rot my socks, lol

[Jaguar]

I'm really conservative in my computer needs, I don't do high end games, or graphic whatever. BUT I love speed, I'm a speed freak of sorts.

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 5, 2015 17:50:33 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

This is how I learned it.....64 bits of information was better than 32 bits of information. It's faster, it's better, and well I just learned 64 was way better.....now 128 will rot my socks, lol

It's only faster and better if software can make use of it. And at this point very little software can make use of it.

The only real advantage circa 2015 is getting more than 4 GB of addressable memory, but that's not something anyone who's "conservative in [their] computer needs" (or anything close to it) should worry about.

Oct 5, 2015 17:52:10 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

I'm really conservative in my computer needs, I don't do high end games, or graphic whatever. BUT I love speed, I'm a speed freak of sorts.

Again, you're not getting it unless you're using applications specifically designed and optimized to use 64-bit processing, which at this point is very few. Even then, for your typical day-to-day computing the biggest speed bottleneck is going to be your hard drive and the speed of your Internet connection.

[Jaguar]

What ever, lol

[The Captain]

Oct 5, 2015 22:20:20 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Oct 5, 2015 17:50:33 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

This is how I learned it.....64 bits of information was better than 32 bits of information. It's faster, it's better, and well I just learned 64 was way better.....now 128 will rot my socks, lol

It's only faster and better if software can make use of it. And at this point very little software can make use of it.

The only real advantage circa 2015 is getting more than 4 GB of addressable memory, but that's not something anyone who's "conservative in [their] computer needs" (or anything close to it) should worry about.

Oct 5, 2015 17:52:10 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

I'm really conservative in my computer needs, I don't do high end games, or graphic whatever. BUT I love speed, I'm a speed freak of sorts.

Again, you're not getting it unless you're using applications specifically designed and optimized to use 64-bit processing, which at this point is very few. Even then, for your typical day-to-day computing the biggest speed bottleneck is going to be your hard drive and the speed of your Internet connection.

The latest versions of some of the graphic software I use (Corel Draw and Paintshop Pro) have features that only run on 64-bit systems.

I've seen them in action...but between the cost of the software (over $400 a pop) and the hardware (which you know better than me) I can't justify it for a hobby.

In a way it's kinda sad/funny.  I have some friends who make a living (somewhat) as artists who can't afford this stuff.  It's wicked cool and if one manages to get the hardware I'll commission something so she can get the software.

ALMOST makes me want to take some college level classes so I qualify for the student discount.  Really makes me wonder what a 128-bit system would be able to handle.

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 6, 2015 8:39:41 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Oct 5, 2015 22:20:20 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It's only faster and better if software can make use of it. And at this point very little software can make use of it.

The only real advantage circa 2015 is getting more than 4 GB of addressable memory, but that's not something anyone who's "conservative in [their] computer needs" (or anything close to it) should worry about.

Again, you're not getting it unless you're using applications specifically designed and optimized to use 64-bit processing, which at this point is very few. Even then, for your typical day-to-day computing the biggest speed bottleneck is going to be your hard drive and the speed of your Internet connection.

The latest versions of some of the graphic software I use (Corel Draw and Paintshop Pro) have features that only run on 64-bit systems.

I've seen them in action...but between the cost of the software (over $400 a pop) and the hardware (which you know better than me) I can't justify it for a hobby.

In a way it's kinda sad/funny.  I have some friends who make a living (somewhat) as artists who can't afford this stuff.  It's wicked cool and if one manages to get the hardware I'll commission something so she can get the software.

ALMOST makes me want to take some college level classes so I qualify for the student discount.  Really makes me wonder what a 128-bit system would be able to handle.

The PlayStation 3 and PlayStation 4 both have 128-bit pipelines. Many modern GPUs have 1024-bit pipelines.

If a task can be heavily parallelized, such as with 3D rendering, graphics processing, etc., your processing bandwidth theoretically goes up proportionally to the size of your pipeline. Hence your fully-parallelized 128-bit pipeline will crunch numbers 4 times faster than your 32-bit pipeline.

The problem is that very little software is heavily parallelized. Software for commercial graphics development typically is. Software for encoding and decoding video typically is. Software for 3D rendering, and games that rely on impressive 2D/3D graphics virtually always are, and have been the industry driver for a long time.

Other than this, very little software I'd call "common" makes use of parallelism. Many applications aren't heavily parallelizable. Some aren't parallelizable at all. Few are so speed-critical that parallelism matters. And of course, highly parallelized applications are far trickier to develop than traditional apps.

Huge data pipelines are only useful if you can use them, and for the vast majority of what end users use computers for these days, they're simply not needed. Even 64-bit pipelines. If you're running extremely calculation-intensive tasks and your software is designed to take advantage of the pipeline (e.g. though SIMD instructions, etc.), you'll notice speed-ups anywhere up to 100%. For everything else: negligible difference, and you wouldn't notice it anyway.

As I said to Sugilite, the main push to 64 bits in PCs was to get more than 4 GB of addressable memory, which was getting to be a problem since a modern OS plus hardware uses up at least 2 GB of that without any applications running.

If you want blinding fast speed, the biggest bottleneck by far in modern PCs is hard drives. Buy yourself a high-bandwidth solid-state HD with write-through to a standard HD. I guarantee you you'll notice a huge performance increase there. The relatively major caveats are that SS HDs cost a fair bit, they're not sold retail except maybe at a few obscure electronics outlets, and you have to really know what you're doing in order to equip your rig.

[teen persuasion]

Is this a general "technology sucks" rant thread?  I've got lots to rant about from work.

We had an "Open Access" tech Q&A session at the library a week ago, to help patrons learn how to use all our web based services: ebooks, e magazines, music download/streaming service, Ancestry, etc.  I worked with a few not very tech savvy seniors to get them successfully using several services, including the music one.

A day later, the director attended a series of meetings, and the decision was made among directors that the music service didn't have enough use stats to renew when it ran out at the end of the month.  We would get trial  links to another competitor's option, and other new services to consider.  The links were delayed until the end of the week, when we are closed, and included a correction to the end date for the music service (10/5, not 10/31).  So I spent at least part of my day off testing out the new services at home.

The music service I couldn't test, since it doesn't have an app for most kindle fires  .  The other service we were excited to add (comics/graphic novels) is not ready for primetime.  The browser based viewer wouldn't load material 50% of the time, and was flaky when it did.  The content was troublesome for a public library which wanted to promote the service to the J population, possibly YA.  How do you age restrict what displays on a public catalog?

Since the deadline for the old music service expired unexpectedly quickly (yesterday) and nothing has replaced it yet, I just went to our system website to see how they handled it.  They haven't.  The section is still there, the link works, but in fine print is a notice that the library is no longer active in the service (message from the provider, not our system), so I'm sure any attempt at login will fail.  I have no idea who maintains that webpage.  I've got to contact our individual library's webpage designer to have her disable the links on our site.  It would make more sense to wait until a replacement is selected, but I'm not holding my breath.  Of course removing that one will disrupt the layout that is currently evenly paired up.

Then there are the uninterruptible power supplies we ordered and I'm supposed to put in place.  Tha public computers, it turns out are on big, heavy oak tables with the power supply lines sandwiched between them.  I can't access the outlets until we have a bunch of people strong enough to move them.  Most of the time I work alone. . At best there may be 2 of us.  The board members do a good bit of volunteer labor, but they are primarily retired folks, and there are few men left on the board now.  

Ok, moving on, I can at least install one for the printer bank.  Nope, the old building wiring in that section is not grounded.  Start looking around, there are 2 outlets total in the front 2/3 of the building!  So now I'm checking out the breaker box to figure out when things were last updated, by whom, exactly how far out of code are we for a public building?  And that block of outlets powering the new bank of public computers?  I believe a former board member did (or oversaw?) that, certainly we didn't hire an electrician when those tables were installed maybe a year ago.

And, last Thursday a patron called asking if any of our computers still had floppy disc drives.  The only computer available to her still used them, she'd saved files to disc and wanted to print them.  She couldn't find anyone that could help her.

[wyouser]

Upon much contemplation about this thing with bits........in the world of drills, a 32 bit is bigger than a 64 bit..........

[Wisconsin Beth]

Oct 6, 2015 10:12:34 GMT -5 wyouser said:

Upon much contemplation about this thing with bits........in the world of drills, a 32 bit is bigger than a 64 bit..........

snort. 

*-*-
My kids are almost 6 and 7.  They're learning about math and numbers and stuff, including doubling.  So recently we had the following exchange in our living room and my minivan:
"Mom, what's 1+1?"
"2"
"What's 2+2?"
"4"
"What's 4+4?"
"8"
What's 8+8?"
"16"
"What's 16+16?"
"32"
"What's 32+32?"
"64"
"What's 64+64?"
"128" feeble synapses start making connections
"What's 128+128?"
"256" light slowly starts dawning
"What's 256+256?"
"a megabit"
"What's a megabit+wait, what?"

We actually repeated this a couple of times.  When I told DH about it, he just about died laughing. 
 

[ArchietheDragon]

Oct 6, 2015 10:31:10 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Oct 6, 2015 10:12:34 GMT -5 wyouser said:

Upon much contemplation about this thing with bits........in the world of drills, a 32 bit is bigger than a 64 bit..........

snort. 

*-*-
My kids are almost 6 and 7.  They're learning about math and numbers and stuff, including doubling.  So recently we had the following exchange in our living room and my minivan:
"Mom, what's 1+1?"
"2"
"What's 2+2?"
"4"
"What's 4+4?"
"8"
What's 8+8?"
"16"
"What's 16+16?"
"32"
"What's 32+32?"
"64"
"What's 64+64?"
"128" feeble synapses start making connections
"What's 128+128?"
"256" light slowly starts dawning
"What's 256+256?"
"a megabit"
"What's a megabit+wait, what?"

We actually repeated this a couple of times.  When I told DH about it, he just about died laughing. 
 

nice!  You got some smart kiddos!

[Wisconsin Beth]

Thanks! 

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 6, 2015 10:31:52 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Oct 6, 2015 10:31:10 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

snort. 

*-*-
My kids are almost 6 and 7.  They're learning about math and numbers and stuff, including doubling.  So recently we had the following exchange in our living room and my minivan:
"Mom, what's 1+1?"
"2"
"What's 2+2?"
"4"
"What's 4+4?"
"8"
What's 8+8?"
"16"
"What's 16+16?"
"32"
"What's 32+32?"
"64"
"What's 64+64?"
"128" feeble synapses start making connections
"What's 128+128?"
"256" light slowly starts dawning
"What's 256+256?"
"a megabit"
"What's a megabit+wait, what?"

We actually repeated this a couple of times.  When I told DH about it, he just about died laughing. 
 

nice!  You got some smart kiddos!

I don't get it.

They recognized the successive powers of 2 after a while?

A megabit is 10⁶ bits. 256 bits + 256 bits = 512 bits = half a kibibit.

[ArchietheDragon]

Oct 6, 2015 12:22:28 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Oct 6, 2015 10:31:52 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

nice!  You got some smart kiddos!

I don't get it.

They recognized the successive powers of 2 after a while?

A megabit is 10⁶ bits. 256 bits + 256 bits = 512 bits = half a kibibit.

I didn't say they were geniuses. 

[NancysSummerSip]

A megabit is 106 bits. 256 bits + 256 bits = 512 bits = half a kibibit.

A kibibit?

Sounds like something from the pet store I would buy and give my kitty as a treat.

[The Captain]

Oct 6, 2015 9:46:58 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Oct 6, 2015 8:39:41 GMT -5 The Captain said:

The PlayStation 3 and PlayStation 4 both have 128-bit pipelines. Many modern GPUs have 1024-bit pipelines.

I'm not a gamer (well - vector graphic games doesn't count) but I'm not surprised by this.  I've seen the rendering on some of the newer games and it's amazing.
(heavy tech geek stuff edited out)



As I said to Sugilite, the main push to 64 bits in PCs was to get more than 4 GB of addressable memory, which was getting to be a problem since a modern OS plus hardware uses up at least 2 GB of that without any applications running.

If you want blinding fast speed, the biggest bottleneck by far in modern PCs is hard drives. Buy yourself a high-bandwidth solid-state HD with write-through to a standard HD. I guarantee you you'll notice a huge performance increase there. The relatively major caveats are that SS HDs cost a fair bit, they're not sold retail except maybe at a few obscure electronics outlets, and you have to really know what you're doing in order to equip your rig.

Ok, now you have my attention. DH actually put in a SS HD in my tablet so I'd have a smaller chance of hard drive failure (my tablet goes with me everywhere). I'm doing some research on what you wrote, but am still in the market for a new PC anyway as my tablet simply can't handle my graphics programs. I'll likely go with a desktop.

I am so out of touch with hardware I don't even know what half the stuff means anymore.  DH isn't too much better (he's more of a OS/systems interface kind of guy now).
 
Your comment about prices is kinda funny.  I googled SS HD and found a 6TB with a 128MB buffer (is that what gives a good write-through rate?) for $450.  That's what I paid to upgrade my first computer's HD (286) from 20MB to 40MB about 26 years ago.

I acknowledge this is one area where I should probably outsource stuff to an expert.  However, based on my (and from your post) your observations I don't have high confidence levels in the level of expertise out there.

So, if you have any suggestions for a new machine with the ability to hand huge graphics loads, let me know.  In the meantime I'll start visiting the gaming sites as that should be a good place to start.

I'd ask about monitors as well, but...

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 6, 2015 12:44:09 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Oct 6, 2015 9:46:58 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

The PlayStation 3 and PlayStation 4 both have 128-bit pipelines. Many modern GPUs have 1024-bit pipelines.

I'm not a gamer (well - vector graphic games doesn't count) but I'm not surprised by this.  I've seen the rendering on some of the newer games and it's amazing.
(heavy tech geek stuff edited out)



As I said to Sugilite, the main push to 64 bits in PCs was to get more than 4 GB of addressable memory, which was getting to be a problem since a modern OS plus hardware uses up at least 2 GB of that without any applications running.

If you want blinding fast speed, the biggest bottleneck by far in modern PCs is hard drives. Buy yourself a high-bandwidth solid-state HD with write-through to a standard HD. I guarantee you you'll notice a huge performance increase there. The relatively major caveats are that SS HDs cost a fair bit, they're not sold retail except maybe at a few obscure electronics outlets, and you have to really know what you're doing in order to equip your rig.

Ok, now you have my attention. DH actually put in a SS HD in my tablet so I'd have a smaller chance of hard drive failure (my tablet goes with me everywhere). I'm doing some research on what you wrote, but am still in the market for a new PC anyway as my tablet simply can't handle my graphics programs. I'll likely go with a desktop.

I am so out of touch with hardware I don't even know what half the stuff means anymore.  DH isn't too much better (he's more of a OS/systems interface kind of guy now).
 
Your comment about prices is kinda funny.  I googled SS HD and found a 6TB with a 128MB buffer (is that what gives a good write-through rate?) for $450.  That's what I paid to upgrade my first computer's HD (286) from 20MB to 40MB about 26 years ago.

I acknowledge this is one area where I should probably outsource stuff to an expert.  However, based on my (and from your post) your observations I don't have high confidence levels in the level of expertise out there.

So, if you have any suggestions for a new machine with the ability to hand huge graphics loads, let me know.  In the meantime I'll start visiting the gaming sites as that should be a good place to start.

I'd ask about monitors as well, but...

The buffer on a hybrid drive is like a cache. Reads and writes to the cache are much faster, but if the data you need isn't in the cache, it needs to be paged in from the magnetic drive, which offers no performance improvement over standard HDs. Hence your performance boost is limited to the degree that your reads and writes reside in the same 128 MB pool of hard drive sectors.

I honestly couldn't tell you whether 128 MB is a big enough buffer to notice an appreciable speed-up. For games, I can guarantee 'no'. You're going to be reading randomly from several gigabytes of data all the while the game is running, so a 128 MB buffer is nothing. The same is true for booting. A computer reads at least several gigs during boot up. (Supposedly newer hybrid drives are smart enough to keep enough of the most-frequently-read boot stuff in the cache to meaningfully improve boot times, but I've never seen any really impressive benchmarks.)

For something like web browsing, word processing, etc., you'd notice a significant speed-up. But the question is whether those tasks are slow enough that it's worth speeding them up.

For blazing speed during gaming, you may want to go with a pure SSD (i.e. no hybrid). The trouble there is expense. If you want even a 2 TB SSD, you're looking at $100-200 over and above another drive with greater capacity for your data files. Plus, you have to be careful about whether your system will handle SATA 3. If all goes well, you can realistically get up to 600 MB/s serial read/write, and a ridiculous improvement over standard hard drives on random access performance (anywhere from 20 to 50 times!).