ACLU suing Trinity Health Corporation

[Wisconsin Beth]

www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/10/01/aclu_sues_catholic_hospitals_for_refusing_pregnant_women_health_care.html

Under strict religious directives, Catholic hospitals refuse to help a woman carry out a miscarriage until the fetal heartbeat stops on its own. They also prevent doctors from performing tubal ligation—also known as getting your tubes tied—even if the procedure would benefit the woman’s health.

On behalf of women denied care in the name of those directives, the American Civil Liberties Union announced that it is suing Trinity Health Corporation, one of the largest Catholic health systems in the country. The formal complaint is based on the health system’s “repeated and systematic failure to provide women suffering pregnancy complications with appropriate emergency abortions as required by federal law,” according to an ACLU press release.

Mods, this might need to be moved.  If so, feel free.

[happyhoix]

Wasn't there a case in Ireland where a woman who was having a miscarriage developed sepsis and died because the Irish laws wouldn't allow the doctors to intervene until the fetal heartbeat stopped? By the time that happened, they tried to do a D and C, but the woman could not be saved.

Tragic.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 2, 2015 14:51:24 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Wasn't there a case in Ireland where a woman who was having a miscarriage developed sepsis and died because the Irish laws wouldn't allow the doctors to intervene until the fetal heartbeat stopped? By the time that happened, they tried to do a D and C, but the woman could not be saved.

Tragic.

Partly as a result of Savita Halappanava's death, the investigation surrounding her death, and partly as a result of the case of A, B and C v Ireland in the European Court, Ireland signed into law the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013.

Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013

[Deleted]

If Catholics stand there ground and refuse to do something they think immoral and against God's will, should they close the hospitals they run? 

[resolution]

They kicked St Joseph's Hospital in Phoenix out of their network when they did an abortion to save the mother. The hospital is still there providing services but they are no longer in the network and the nun that authorized the procedure was excommunicated. It was one of those cases where either the baby died or the mom and baby both died, and they saved the mom.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 3, 2015 8:53:57 GMT -5 resolution said:

They kicked St Joseph's Hospital in Phoenix out of their network when they did an abortion to save the mother. The hospital is still there providing services but they are no longer in the network and the nun that authorized the procedure was excommunicated. It was one of those cases where either the baby died or the mom and baby both died, and they saved the mom.

A few posters will not believe you if you don't post a link to your claim. So here you go.

Excommunication of Margaret McBride

[resolution]

The main thing is that the hospital is still open, they were just kicked out of the Catholic network but they are still operational and providing services.  Getting rid of Medicaid services would likely close the hospital but losing the catholic affiliation didn't have much impact.

I am linking another article from the conservative catholic side about the evils that the hospital was committing as a part of the state Medicaid plan. www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/bishop-strips-abortion-hospital-of-catholic-status

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

This is sad that it has to come to this.  There was a case in the news here in CA recently about this type of thing..



"But the issues raised in the conflict between a Catholic-owned hospital and a pregnant woman seeking a tubal ligation will continue to generate controversy and present problems for women seeking reproductive choices, according to consumer advocates.

Rachel Miller, a Redding woman expecting her second child later this month, wanted this to be her last baby. She asked her physician to tie her fallopian tubes after she gave birth.

Mercy Medical Center, a Catholic hospital owned by Dignity Health, denied the physician's request to perform the procedure.
Miller, an attorney, sought help from the American Civil Liberties Union, which threatened to sue the hospital. The hospital reversed its decision and agreed to allow the procedure later this month.

In Redding, Miller, whose first child was born at Mercy Medical Center, said the closest hospital other than Mercy that would accept her insurance and deliver the baby followed by sterilization was the UC-Davis hospital 160 miles away."

www.californiahealthline.org/insight/2015/reproductive-rights-battle-continues

www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/Lawsuit-tests-religious-hospitals-right-to-6461051.php


This is crazy that the pt would need to travel 160 miles to get a procedure that is legal.  If the physician is willing to do the procedure, what is the problem? I understand the practitioner going with their beliefs but a corporation?  I know the Supreme Court says that companies have 1st Amendment rights but I disagree. A company isn't a person and can't have 1st amendment rights.. 

[Deleted]

So let me get this straight:

1. The catholic church is not taxed by the government

2. They make a profit off of their gigantic hospital network

3. A lot of that profit is from Medicare and Medicaid which comes from the government

4. A non-catholic mother could be taken to one of their hospitals through no choice of her own in an emergency

5. They get to make policies that can put a mothers life in extreme danger and avoid prosecution for it





I've said it before, Tony Soprano could only dream of having a business empire that doesn't pay taxes, receives federal funds and avoids prosecution like the catholic church.

[Deleted]

This article said it better than I did above:


rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/03/25/dont-take-her-to-catholic-hospital/

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

3. A lot of that profit is from Medicare and Medicaid which comes from the government

They receive reimbursement, but I doubt if it is profit.  Medicaid is usually paid out as a loss to the facility, and Medicare pay is about a break even point.

I know tht we ran the dental van at a loss, what Medicaid paid us for taking it to schools and providing treatment to kids didnt even cover the supplies we used on the kids. Running the van and the salaries for the professionals were covered by grants, contracts (McDonald's was a large contributor) and private donations.

[Deleted]

Oct 4, 2015 14:21:12 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

3. A lot of that profit is from Medicare and Medicaid which comes from the government

They receive reimbursement, but I doubt if it is profit.  Medicaid is usually paid out as a loss to the facility, and Medicare pay is about a break even point.

I know tht we ran the dental van at a loss, what Medicaid paid us for taking it to schools and providing treatment to kids didnt even cover the supplies we used on the kids. Running the van and the salaries for the professionals were covered by grants, contracts (McDonald's was a large contributor) and private donations.

Maybe not profit per se but still funds received from the gov that goes against overhead that helps to make other parts of the business more profitable.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

How would this be so?  Have you seen a reimbursement from Medicare or Medicaid?  

I'm on Medicare, and received a bill from my orthopedic surgeon for my yearly follow up last month.  I paid $17, the surgeon was paid $23.  This included a series of 6 X-rays, cleaning the exam room, the time of the receptionist, X-ray tech, nurse and about 20 minutes of my surgeon's time.

How much overhead do you think was covered in that $40?

As I mentioned before, the Medicaid reimbursements didnt cover dental supplies used on the kids, how much overhead could be covered?

[NastyWoman]

Oct 4, 2015 14:30:17 GMT -5 @aj said:

Oct 4, 2015 14:21:12 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

3. A lot of that profit is from Medicare and Medicaid which comes from the government

They receive reimbursement, but I doubt if it is profit.  Medicaid is usually paid out as a loss to the facility, and Medicare pay is about a break even point.

I know tht we ran the dental van at a loss, what Medicaid paid us for taking it to schools and providing treatment to kids didnt even cover the supplies we used on the kids. Running the van and the salaries for the professionals were covered by grants, contracts (McDonald's was a large contributor) and private donations.

Maybe not profit per se but still funds received from the gov that goes against overhead that helps to make other parts of the business more profitable.

If you don't get paid enough to cover "out of pocket" actual cost such as supplies and salaries, than per definition, there is no money to cover overhead cost. Those will have to be added to the amounts paid by other patients be it directly or through their insurance companies

[Deleted]

Yes, I have seen it and have a lot of experience in that field. I'm looking more big picture, take an MRI machine which costs a ton of money, it takes a lot of customers to pay off the machine before the machine is profitable for a hospital. The Medicare/Medicaid customers contribute quite a bit each time a hospital gets reimbursed for its use which brings it closer to the time the machine is actually profitable. This article explains it pretty well:

www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/02/22/medicare_provider_payments_do_hospitals_lose_money_treating_medicare_patients.html

[happyhoix]

Oct 4, 2015 12:10:56 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

This is sad that it has to come to this.  There was a case in the news here in CA recently about this type of thing..



"But the issues raised in the conflict between a Catholic-owned hospital and a pregnant woman seeking a tubal ligation will continue to generate controversy and present problems for women seeking reproductive choices, according to consumer advocates.

Rachel Miller, a Redding woman expecting her second child later this month, wanted this to be her last baby. She asked her physician to tie her fallopian tubes after she gave birth.

Mercy Medical Center, a Catholic hospital owned by Dignity Health, denied the physician's request to perform the procedure.
Miller, an attorney, sought help from the American Civil Liberties Union, which threatened to sue the hospital. The hospital reversed its decision and agreed to allow the procedure later this month.

In Redding, Miller, whose first child was born at Mercy Medical Center, said the closest hospital other than Mercy that would accept her insurance and deliver the baby followed by sterilization was the UC-Davis hospital 160 miles away."

www.californiahealthline.org/insight/2015/reproductive-rights-battle-continues

www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/Lawsuit-tests-religious-hospitals-right-to-6461051.php


This is crazy that the pt would need to travel 160 miles to get a procedure that is legal.  If the physician is willing to do the procedure, what is the problem? I understand the practitioner going with their beliefs but a corporation?  I know the Supreme Court says that companies have 1st Amendment rights but I disagree. A company isn't a person and can't have 1st amendment rights.. 

I can see how they would object to performing abortions, and even how they might consider doing a D and C following a miscarriage kind of abortion-ish, but tying your tubes following the birth of a child? Nothing at all abortion-y about that.

Yes I realize the Catholic church does not approve of birth control, but they must realize that something like 95% of American Catholics practise some kind of bc. Refusing to do this kind of thing can't be popular even among the local Catholics.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Under strict religious directives, Catholic hospitals refuse to help a woman carry out a miscarriage until the fetal heartbeat stops on its own. They also prevent doctors from performing tubal ligation—also known as getting your tubes tied—even if the procedure would benefit the woman’s health.

That's happening here too. Catholic Health Initiatives bought up Creighton Medical Center and Alegent. They've got lawsuits pending up the wazoo right now due to the way they handle miscarriages. My brother knows someone who nearly bled out thanks to the policy.  

They also hold the right to overturn my living will and negate DH's choice as far as who is to be saved in the event of an emergency.   I am glad I had Gwen before Creighton became part of CHI. I made sure to stay far far away from them when I was pregnant with Abby.

They are losing doctors in droves as well b/c they strongly disagree with the policies.  Methodist and Nebraska Med are having a field day right now snatching up all the talent on the market.

I can see how they would object to performing abortions, and even how they might consider doing a D and C following a miscarriage kind of abortion-ish, but tying your tubes following the birth of a child? Nothing at all abortion-y about that.

Tubal ligation is permanent birth control.   That is interfering with God's will.   They do not approve of birth control in ANY form.

These companies aren't your run of the mill Catholics. They are very strict adherents to the Catholic doctrine.

[myrrh]

I've always wondered where the Catholics get the no birth control idea from. I've read the Bible through at least five times and never got that at all.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I read a statistic that 50% of WA's hospital beds are in Catholic hospitals.  That is a HUGE percentage, and it impacts me in that I need to drive over 100 miles in order to get to a hospital that has no religious affiliation.

While I am past my child bearing years, where this DOES have an impact on me is for end of life issues.  While WA has passed physician assisted suicide, in researching this, if a physician has admitting privileges to said Catholic hospital, he is NOT ALLOWED to comply with the state law or risk the loss of his admitting privileges.  

This is not going to end well....especially since one of the larger systems has slipped over to the dark side recently.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 5, 2015 11:39:58 GMT -5 myrrh said:

I've always wondered where the Catholics get the no birth control idea from. I've read the Bible through at least five times and never got that at all.

Something about go forth and multiply. But then Pope Francis said 'Some think that — excuse the word — that in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits. No.' "

[myrrh]

Sroo I skimmed that article. The quote from the former Pope made me laugh.

"...parents will remind themselves that it is certainly less serious to deny their children certain comforts or material advantages than to deprive them of the presence of brothers and sisters who could help them to grow in humanity and to realize the beauty of life at all ages and in all its variety"

 I guess I have a different opinion...personal and spiritual growth is not directly related to the number of siblings or kids you have. And YM rails constantly about being able to provide for yourself and your current kids before having more kids. LOL

[myrrh]

Oh it was somewhat serious. I guess I expected more bibically based arguments. And the stuff about contraception causing everything from divorce to porn to teen pregnancy was a little ridiculous. (Correlation does not equal causation.)

And I guess I agree with most of it in theory but it falls short in practice. Marriage should be for life, but there should be allowances for certain circumstances - abuse, drugs, etc. Bringing kids into a bad mix can screw with a lot of heads, down generations. 

[cronewitch]

My brother and his wife lived in Spain when the second and final child was born. He wanted a vasectomy and no place in the entire country would do them even on US Navy bases. He flew to Germany for the weekend. I am glad we have some separation of Church and State maybe we shouldn't allow churches to own hospitals.

[fishy999]

Or maybe pass a law where if you plan on being a hospital then you have to abide by medical protocols not religious ones.