Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 3, 2015 8:34:28 GMT -5
no. just like you can't stop speeding. but that doesn't mean that you just throw up your hands and say "ok, screw it. people are going to speed. fire all the cops". likewise, having highway patrol does not equal a police state. in other words, i don't agree with your false dichotomy. I'm still trying to figure out how in the hell we get to "ban all guns" from "regulate gun ownership." They're not the same thing. There are many types and levels of mental illness. Being a loner isn't a mental illness. It's a preference, as is living with one's mother or holding a particular political view. None of those would get you institutionalized. When we had people present to the ER with mental/emotional problems, we didn't put them in the high risk area unless they showed signs of violence, or an intent to harm themselves or others. That's really not that complicated. Yes, I was speaking to Happyhoix's notion that people should be able to "turn in" their fellow citizens for perceived "mental illness" which in fact would just either be because they just don't like them or that person is doesn't conform to their idea of "normal."
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Oct 3, 2015 8:59:22 GMT -5
And....he is proposing WHAT exactly? What's the matter, lalala Shooby? He spoke about it. You didn't ask for what he was going to do about it. Oh, ok. He's had 6 years to actually propose something rather than sit on his arse, but whatevs.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 3, 2015 9:09:43 GMT -5
What's the matter, lalala Shooby? He spoke about it. You didn't ask for what he was going to do about it. Oh, ok. He's had 6 years to actually propose something rather than sit on his arse, but whatevs. You must have had your fingertips in your eyes too, "but whatevs." President Obama's Plan to Address Our Nation's Urgent Mental Health NeedPresident Obama's recently proposed Fiscal Year (FY) 2016 Budget provides the nation with an unprecedented opportunity to address America's urgent behavioral health needs. About 1 in 5 Americans experiences a mental illness every year, yet many struggle to access treatment and services. The FY 2016 Budget proposes improvements to the mental health system by expanding treatment for serious mental illness (SMI) and by reaching people in crisis when they need help the most. Many of the president's proposals in this area are focused within the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and its Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA). SAMHSA is a relatively small federal agency, but has a large effect in reducing the impact of mental illnesses and substance abuse within our nation's communities. Three-quarters of SAMHSA's mental health budget is dedicated to serving people with SMI. SAMHSA's Community Mental Health Services Block Grant, Children's Mental Health Initiative, and Primary and Behavioral Health Care Integration programs provide medical treatment and recovery support services to millions of Americans with the most serious needs. SAMHSA's leadership, including coordination with other federal departments, is focused on enhancing our ability to help ensure that people with these disorders receive vital supports for treatment and recovery. Full article here. President Obama's Plan to Address Our Nation's Urgent Mental Health Needs
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Oct 3, 2015 9:20:37 GMT -5
These guns are registered? Of course not. There is no requirement that they be registered. They were all bought or acquired in state. I did not expect them to be registered, I guess it was more of a question on whether or not your state wanted them registered. I have many unregistered guns, starting with a .22 I bought when I was seven years old.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 9:21:48 GMT -5
People get so upset over things like this and it is terrible, but they pretty much ignore what we do with drones and the like over in the Middle East. When we kill doctors or kids or people at a marriage ceremony it is all of us that are responsible. We purchased the bombs and the planes with our tax dollars. We pay the soldiers who do the killing. We are responsible. The guy who killed these people is the only one responsible for these murders. I think the reason we differ is that we can see ourselves or our loved ones when it happens here. But the doctors killed or the kids killed, everyone killed over there also had people that loved them. I think it would be better to be madder at what we are responsible for.
There is less violent crime now then in history. We are moving in the right direction with senseless killings in America. The number is going down.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2015 10:29:05 GMT -5
Sorry, but all I hear from Obama is gun control, gun control, gun control. I have yet to hear him speak about mental illness or anything like that. here you go:
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2015 10:30:34 GMT -5
People get so upset over things like this and it is terrible, but they pretty much ignore what we do with drones and the like over in the Middle East. When we kill doctors or kids or people at a marriage ceremony it is all of us that are responsible. We purchased the bombs and the planes with our tax dollars. We pay the soldiers who do the killing. We are responsible. The guy who killed these people is the only one responsible for these murders. I think the reason we differ is that we can see ourselves or our loved ones when it happens here. But the doctors killed or the kids killed, everyone killed over there also had people that loved them. I think it would be better to be madder at what we are responsible for. There is less violent crime now then in history. We are moving in the right direction with senseless killings in America. The number is going down. drones are a serious problem. but unfortunately, a lot of people SUPPORT drones, hickle. they don't get attention because of that. gun violence on the other hand...WHO SUPPORTS THAT? and it happens HERE. it is not surprising that it gets more attention.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 3, 2015 10:56:29 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 3, 2015 10:58:10 GMT -5
I have my weapons locked up when not in use. If I lived close to a family member that wasn't wrapped tight, I'd be even more careful. DD carried on campus when she went to school. Yes, it wasn't allowed, and yes, a ton of students did. I'd rather her expelled than dead. Btw, there were shootings on her campus so I was glad she carried. She's a better shot than I am even! I'm carrying DH's designated carry gun. I'm not a fan of it but it's smaller than my Smith which I totally love. I couldn't live with myself if I saw people dying and did nothing about it, just watched them get shot when I could have prevented it. For some bizarre reason, the mentally ill have more rights than those that aren't and until we fix that problem, these problems will occur. I started carrying because DH's ex was nuts. Once she was aware that I carried and that I had zero issue with shooting her, she stopped harassing me/us. She wasn't THAT nuts and most of these people aren't. They know what they are doing and if they thought they'd get blown away first, it'd stop a lot of it. You don't hear a lot about the knockout game anymore since a few of them got shot. I think the people that play that "game" are nuts but when they can't find a "victim" they stop doing it. As a former teacher, I saw plenty of students that I felt someday we'd read about on the news. It's just a matter of time. Time to re-open those mental institutions and make family liable for family that they know aren't mentally healthy but choose to do nothing or feel there's nothing they can do. If a psychologist signs off that the person is healthy, the family is off the hook and the psychologist is liable if the person commits mayhem. Schools can target these children as well and maybe turn them in a better direction but some of these children just seem to be born with no conscience at all. Those need to be locked up and the key thrown away as they will never assimilate into society. I'm just waiting for the one to make the news but he may already be dead and I just don't know about it. I'll find out in a few months because I'll be at my monthly retired teacher dinners and the classroom teacher that had him attends those. Are you suggesting locking up millions of people who haven't done anything wrong and who haven't broken any laws? And the keys thrown away forever? Seriously? Nothing "big government-y" about that? It smacks of North Korea.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 3, 2015 11:41:23 GMT -5
No, but leave it to you to exaggerate. But very rarely does a completely normal person just go off the deep end. There's been plenty of warning.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 3, 2015 11:47:57 GMT -5
No, but leave it to you to exaggerate. But very rarely does a completely normal person just go off the deep end. There's been plenty of warning. OK. How's this? I've been reading your posts on the dating thread. You sound very angry, very depressed and you've even mentioned suicidal ideation. You also carry. Should I be able to alert the authorities to have you locked up? How about just taking your guns away?After all, there have been warning signs. You haven't done anything wrong, but the potential is certainly there. Or does the "locking people up" business only apply to other people? "Those" people. Certainly not you.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 3, 2015 11:58:41 GMT -5
You're right. But I'm not going out looking to shoot other people. There's a huge difference between someone who is depressed from time to time and someone who is looking for attention. If I were examined, the psychologist would probably say you used to be a happy person who is going through a rough time. I have a history of mostly being happy and if I had the sense to stay away from men, I'd stay happy. I've told my primary as well as the social worker. Both said my feelings were perfectly normal considering. Both have a history with me so they know me.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 3, 2015 11:59:44 GMT -5
Plus, I've gotten more demanding with DH. He needs to help himself get better.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 3, 2015 12:10:53 GMT -5
You're right. But I'm not going out looking to shoot other people. There's a huge difference between someone who is depressed from time to time and someone who is looking for attention. If I were examined, the psychologist would probably say you used to be a happy person who is going through a rough time. I have a history of mostly being happy and if I had the sense to stay away from men, I'd stay happy. I've told my primary as well as the social worker. Both said my feelings were perfectly normal considering. Both have a history with me so they know me. We don't know that. Something may send you over the edge. You've expressed fury at the doctors who have brushed you off. Maybe you'll snap. Who knows? You can't say "Well, it's different for me, but THAT guy....well... all the signs are there. someone should do something."
(By the way, I'm sorry for your troubles.)
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 3, 2015 12:14:40 GMT -5
THAT guy could also say "I'm not looking to shoot people." Should we just take everyone's word for it? Who is going to admit that they're looking to shoot people? It's a very slippery slope.
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gacpa
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Post by gacpa on Oct 3, 2015 12:40:22 GMT -5
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Oct 3, 2015 12:51:38 GMT -5
The media needs to stop running non-stop coverage of these sick fucks for days on end, mentioning their name every two minutes, and giving them the fame they crave. I don't give a shit what the asshole in Oregon's name was. I don't need to see his family or acquaintances on TV talking about his life, childhood, or whatever. He's a sick deranged fuck, now he's dead, may he be dry raped by a cactus every day on hell. No gun regulation required. Imagine how many fewer school shootings we would have had if the media never mentioned the names of the shooters from Columbine. catching up on this thread now, apologies if someone else has already pointed this out...but I wanted to note that I think it's great that the police spokesman (maybe the chief?) refused to name the shooter or talk about him at all in the clip I caught on the news yesterday. now that's a step in the right direction. stop sensationalizing these shootings, stop making these assholes household names for other disturbed people to hold as idols. that's part of how we prevent more of these shootings.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Oct 3, 2015 12:56:58 GMT -5
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 3, 2015 13:12:32 GMT -5
What on earth is the NRA afraid of? Gun Control at (Nashville) NRA Convention?The convention (April 10-12 in Nashville) is expected to draw a crowd of 70,000 people. Naturally all of them are do-gooders — there to ogle, stroke and cling to the “16 acres of guns” (according to an ad for the event). Among the 555 Exhibitors (according to the NRA’s event website) are Smith & Wesson, SigSauer, Beretta USA and Remington Arms. So will there be guns? — you betcha. Will they work? — uh, no. Sorry, but these guns won’t fire. According to the security plan that was adopted by the NRA soon after Nashville was chosen to host their annual convention — all guns on the convention floor will be nonoperational with the firing pins removed. In addition, any guns purchased during the NRA convention will have to be picked up at a Federal Firearms License dealer (near the purchaser’s home) and will require a legal identification (I expect they mean at the time of pickup of said merchandise.) Gun Control at NRA Convention?As a side note, in early April too (like the above NRA event), the Tennessee legislature voted and approved guns in our city and state parks but to ban guns in and around the Tennessee capital complex where the legislatures work. It's okay for us to possibly get caught up in crossfire while visiting our parks but not politicians in or around their workplace. The approval to allow guns in our city and state parks came about because NRA convention goers in Nashville would not have been able to visit our parks if they were carrying their firearms. Special committee strips Capitol complex from Tennessee guns-in-parks bill
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Oct 3, 2015 13:45:15 GMT -5
When will these nightmares end. Gunman opens fire at Oregon college in mass killing Oct 1 (Reuters) - A gunman opened fire on Thursday at a community college in Oregon, killing 13 people and wounding some 20 others before he was shot to death by police, in the latest mass killing to rock a U.S. school, state and county officials said. linkI don't know what is going on any more. Is it the easy availability of guns, certainly. Is it mental illness that has been let go and not treated, certainly. Is it the constant 24 hour news cycle that makes some deranged idiots want to take a blood bath, before they go...maybe. We are becoming a sick country when these kind of horrific acts repeat themselves over and over again.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Oct 3, 2015 14:16:46 GMT -5
About the only thing I can say on the subject now is that the world would ultimately be a much better and safer place if every gun blew up in its owner's hands....
Now that we have solved all the problems guns and mental illness,
Are we going to move on to solving the alcohol, drugs and mental illness that kill far more people than guns?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Oct 3, 2015 14:31:30 GMT -5
What on earth is the NRA afraid of? Gun Control at (Nashville) NRA Convention?The convention (April 10-12 in Nashville) is expected to draw a crowd of 70,000 people. Naturally all of them are do-gooders — there to ogle, stroke and cling to the “16 acres of guns” (according to an ad for the event). Among the 555 Exhibitors (according to the NRA’s event website) are Smith & Wesson, SigSauer, Beretta USA and Remington Arms. So will there be guns? — you betcha. Will they work? — uh, no. Sorry, but these guns won’t fire. According to the security plan that was adopted by the NRA soon after Nashville was chosen to host their annual convention — all guns on the convention floor will be nonoperational with the firing pins removed. In addition, any guns purchased during the NRA convention will have to be picked up at a Federal Firearms License dealer (near the purchaser’s home) and will require a legal identification (I expect they mean at the time of pickup of said merchandise.) Gun Control at NRA Convention?As a side note, in early April too (like the above NRA event), the Tennessee legislature voted and approved guns in our city and state parks but to ban guns in and around the Tennessee capital complex where the legislatures work. It's okay for us to possibly get caught up in crossfire while visiting our parks but not politicians in or around their workplace. The approval to allow guns in our city and state parks came about because NRA convention goers in Nashville would not have been able to visit our parks if they were carrying their firearms. Special committee strips Capitol complex from Tennessee guns-in-parks billWhat is your estimate of shooting causalities cause by card carrying members of the NRA upon citizens of your great state of Tennessee? With all of the pro gun people there the causalities will be in the thousands.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 3, 2015 14:35:20 GMT -5
We haven't solved anything. Nor do I believe we have the will to even attempt to really solve anything. But consider this:
How many millions of dollars are spent, and how many liberties are we willing (or forced) to cede in an attempt to protect us from terrorism? How many lives per year does terrorism cost us as Americans? Effectively zero?
How many lives does gun violence cost us each year as Americans? In excess of 30,000? With two-thirds of those as suicides? And yet we can't even effect reasonable measures to make people responsible for those guns? Stupid. Utterly stupid.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Oct 3, 2015 14:45:57 GMT -5
Hey, we're top of the heap! Number ONE!!!!!!!!!
Country Guns per 100 Total Firearm-related Deaths per 100,000
United States 88.8 10.2 Switzerland 45.7 3.84 Finland 45.3 3.64 Sweden 31.6 1.47 Norway 31.3 1.78 France 31.2 3 Canada 30.8 2.44 Austria 30.4 2.94 Iceland 30.3 1.25 Germany 30.3 1.1 New Zealand 22.6 2.66 Greece 22.5 1.5 Belgium 17.2 2.43 Luxembourg 15.3 1.81 Australia 15 1.04 South Africa 12.7 9.41 Turkey 12.5 0.72 Denmark 12 1.45 Malta 11.9 2.16 Italy 11.9 1.28 Spain 10.4 0.63 Ireland 8.6 1.03 Portugal 8.5 1.77 Israel 7.3 1.86 United Kingdom 6.2 0.25 Netherlands 3.9 0.46 Japan 0.6 0.06
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Oct 3, 2015 15:44:18 GMT -5
Of course we are #1. Its what we do.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 3, 2015 16:00:07 GMT -5
When was the last time we were #1 in something good?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Oct 3, 2015 16:02:10 GMT -5
We haven't solved anything. Nor do I believe we have the will to even attempt to really solve anything. But consider this:
How many millions of dollars are spent, and how many liberties are we willing (or forced) to cede in an attempt to protect us from terrorism? How many lives per year does terrorism cost us as Americans? Effectively zero?
How many lives does gun violence cost us each year as Americans? In excess of 30,000? With two-thirds of those as suicides? And yet we can't even effect reasonable measures to make people responsible for those guns? Stupid. Utterly stupid. I absolutey agree with you.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 3, 2015 16:17:19 GMT -5
I'm sorry for the suicides but they aren't killing others. That belongs in another category in my opinion.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Oct 3, 2015 16:22:47 GMT -5
Society will not function unless people police themselves. When people stop policing themselves and lose their moral compass, then all the Police State in the world isn't going to stop the violence.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Oct 3, 2015 16:43:31 GMT -5
Society will not function unless people police themselves. When people stop policing themselves and lose their moral compass, then all the Police State in the world isn't going to stop the violence. did you not *just* post in another thread that you think we CAN force people to get help, and discussed involuntary commitment? how does that fall in line with policing yourself?? sent from my electronic distraction
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