djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,131
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 2, 2015 20:26:24 GMT -5
The thing is, the right to bear arms is the second amendment. The founders of our very society put the right to bear arms up there with freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of the press. In other words, it's a fundamental right, regardless of how you feel about it. There's no way to stop mass shootings without turning the U.S into a police state. It's a logical fallacy to assume that creating more laws will stop gun violence. By their very definition, criminals don't follow the law. The only gun laws that will be effective are those who choose to follow them, e.g. the law biding citizens. I'm also confused as to why the "war on guns" will be any more effective than the war on drugs. People will just turn to the black market if they can't get their guns through legal means. simple question: does a dangerously mentally ill person have the RIGHT to own a firearm?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,131
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 2, 2015 20:27:38 GMT -5
So in summary, we have to continue living with mass shootings. Yes, I think so. It's the price of living in a free society. is it though? is Switzerland not free? don't assume i am against owning guns, i am not.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 2, 2015 20:28:15 GMT -5
Parents/siblings/coworkers could report mentally ill people who are making threats and behaving erratically to the police, and the person could have the choice of going in for an evaluation or having his ability to legally purchase fire arms put on hold. Yes, someone might report someone who isn't mentally ill but only blowing off steam, but in that case, they would only have to visit a psychiatrist to straighten it out and gain back the ability to purchase legal weapons. And even if the psychiatrist drug his feet, or even initially rejected him, I'd rather error on the side of caution than continue to let violent, deranged people have easy access to weapons. Erratic how? Who defines erratic? Is it erratic to play video games 16 hours/day? Is it erratic to display the Confederate flag? You are asking a whole lot of people to be evaluated for erratic behavior. Hell, I'm sure that you have behaviors that some might think erratic, but they are normal to YOU. Right. Is it weird to not have any friends? To be a loner? Is living with your mother a sign? What about just being a jackass? What about people who have abnormal political views?
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,499
|
Post by Tennesseer on Oct 2, 2015 20:30:13 GMT -5
So in summary, we have to continue living with mass shootings. Yes, I think so. It's the price of living in a free society. Do you think the war on guns will be any more effective than the war on drugs? I don't know. The NRA would do everything in their power to sabotage any effort from the get-go. I imagine we will have to put up with a new mass killing every week or so. We will eventually become numb to the slaughter. Good thing I guess.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 2, 2015 20:30:49 GMT -5
Yes, I think so. It's the price of living in a free society. is it though? is Switzerland not free? don't assume i am against owning guns, i am not. Don't assume I own a gun, I don't. I have no interest in owning a firearm. I don't feel I need one. But I respect our constitution, and don't feel I can in good conscience support laws and measures that would go against it. I'm worried that we'll end up in a pattern where a mass shooting happens, we have kneejerk reactions and pass more gun control laws, then another shooting happens, and more laws are passed, and another happens, and more laws are passed. I think ultimately you can't stop it. If you outright ban guns, you'll still have a black market for them, and the shootings willl still happen. The only way to stop it is to turn the U.S into a police state, and I don't want that.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,131
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 2, 2015 20:32:44 GMT -5
Erratic how? Who defines erratic? Is it erratic to play video games 16 hours/day? Is it erratic to display the Confederate flag? You are asking a whole lot of people to be evaluated for erratic behavior. Hell, I'm sure that you have behaviors that some might think erratic, but they are normal to YOU. Right. Is it weird to not have any friends? To be a loner? Is living with your mother a sign? What about just being a jackass? What about people who have abnormal political views? what about them? look, i don't pretend to have all of the answers here, but the fact of the matter is that under USC 18-922d, you are not allowed to own a firearm if you have been committed to a mental institution. period. the language is quite clear. so, if that is unconstitutional, then....i guess we are a lawless nation or something. but there is another possibility.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,131
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 2, 2015 20:35:28 GMT -5
is it though? is Switzerland not free? don't assume i am against owning guns, i am not. Don't assume I own a gun, I don't. I have no interest in owning a firearm. I don't feel I need one. i didn't assume anything of the kind, Phoenix. don't know how you got that idea.But I respect our constitution, and don't feel I can in good conscience support laws and measures that would go against it. i am not sure that it is unconstitutional to prevent the mentally ill from owning guns. if you want to have a discussion about it, we can.I'm worried that we'll end up in a pattern where a mass shooting happens, we have kneejerk reactions and pass more gun control laws, then another shooting happens, and more laws are passed, and another happens, and more laws are passed. we don't need to pass ONE law. we simply need a means of enforcing the ones already there.I think ultimately you can't stop it. If you outright ban guns, you'll still have a black market for them, and the shootings willl still happen. The only way to stop it is to turn the U.S into a police state, and I don't want that. no. just like you can't stop speeding. but that doesn't mean that you just throw up your hands and say "ok, screw it. people are going to speed. fire all the cops". likewise, having highway patrol does not equal a police state. in other words, i don't agree with your false dichotomy.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Oct 2, 2015 20:43:28 GMT -5
Don't assume I own a gun, I don't. I have no interest in owning a firearm. I don't feel I need one. i didn't assume anything of the kind, Phoenix. don't know how you got that idea.But I respect our constitution, and don't feel I can in good conscience support laws and measures that would go against it. i am not sure that it is unconstitutional to prevent the mentally ill from owning guns. if you want to have a discussion about it, we can.I'm worried that we'll end up in a pattern where a mass shooting happens, we have kneejerk reactions and pass more gun control laws, then another shooting happens, and more laws are passed, and another happens, and more laws are passed. we don't need to pass ONE law. we simply need a means of enforcing the ones already there.I think ultimately you can't stop it. If you outright ban guns, you'll still have a black market for them, and the shootings willl still happen. The only way to stop it is to turn the U.S into a police state, and I don't want that. no. just like you can't stop speeding. but that doesn't mean that you just throw up your hands and say "ok, screw it. people are going to speed. fire all the cops". likewise, having highway patrol does not equal a police state. in other words, i don't agree with your false dichotomy. I'm still trying to figure out how in the hell we get to "ban all guns" from "regulate gun ownership." They're not the same thing. There are many types and levels of mental illness. Being a loner isn't a mental illness. It's a preference, as is living with one's mother or holding a particular political view. None of those would get you institutionalized. When we had people present to the ER with mental/emotional problems, we didn't put them in the high risk area unless they showed signs of violence, or an intent to harm themselves or others. That's really not that complicated.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,131
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Oct 2, 2015 20:49:19 GMT -5
no. just like you can't stop speeding. but that doesn't mean that you just throw up your hands and say "ok, screw it. people are going to speed. fire all the cops". likewise, having highway patrol does not equal a police state. in other words, i don't agree with your false dichotomy. I'm still trying to figure out how in the hell we get to "ban all guns" from "regulate gun ownership." They're not the same thing. There are many types and levels of mental illness. Being a loner isn't a mental illness. It's a preference, as is living with one's mother or holding a particular political view. None of those would get you institutionalized. When we had people present to the ER with mental/emotional problems, we didn't put them in the high risk area unless they showed signs of violence, or an intent to harm themselves or others. That's really not that complicated. i don't think that is what Phoenix is saying. he is saying that babies, the mentally ill, violent sex offenders, and everyone else has a right to a gun, because it is in the constitution. therefore, we can't do anything about it. but he forgets that the constitution specifies a right to slaves. there is no right to vote in the constitution. there are a lot of things that are IN the constitution that are not considered sacred- that are considered changeable, and there are many that are NOT in the constitution that ARE considered sacred, and unchangeable. this idea that somehow the 2nd amendment precludes sensible regulations is DUMB. the second amendment talks about militias. do you want a crazy in your militia? how about a baby? how about the blind? is there REALLY no way that you can restrict ANY gun use whatsoever because of the 2nd? THAT seems nuts to me.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Oct 2, 2015 20:54:21 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure out how in the hell we get to "ban all guns" from "regulate gun ownership." They're not the same thing. There are many types and levels of mental illness. Being a loner isn't a mental illness. It's a preference, as is living with one's mother or holding a particular political view. None of those would get you institutionalized. When we had people present to the ER with mental/emotional problems, we didn't put them in the high risk area unless they showed signs of violence, or an intent to harm themselves or others. That's really not that complicated. i don't think that is what Phoenix is saying. he is saying that babies, the mentally ill, violent sex offenders, and everyone else has a right to a gun, because it is in the constitution. therefore, we can't do anything about it. but he forgets that the constitution specifies a right to slaves. there is no right to vote in the constitution. there are a lot of things that are IN the constitution that are not considered sacred- that are considered changeable, and there are many that are NOT in the constitution that ARE considered sacred, and unchangeable. this idea that somehow the 2nd amendment precludes sensible regulations is DUMB. the second amendment talks about militias. do you want a crazy in your militia? how about a baby? how about the blind? is there REALLY no way that you can restrict ANY gun use whatsoever because of the 2nd? THAT seems nuts to me. I hope that's not what Phoenix is saying! That makes no sense at all! There are plenty of people out there who should not, and are not supposed to have a gun. There's good reason for that! The paroled felon who tried to rob a 7/11 with a gun should not be having another gun so he can rob another 7/11 with it. That's just common sense!
|
|
ken a.k.a OMK
Senior Associate
They killed Kenny, the bastards.
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 14:39:20 GMT -5
Posts: 14,109
Location: Maryland
|
Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Oct 2, 2015 20:56:02 GMT -5
Let's get to the mass murder point of guns. The founding fathers had no future vision of anything but a rifle and a hand gun. Defense and hunting. There is no need for a sane person to own the fire power these weapons have. No need to go to McDonald's with a semiautomatic rifle around your shoulder. Hey is that thing loaded? Oh how did you accidentally shoot yourself or a friend?
|
|
fishy999
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 9, 2015 20:40:43 GMT -5
Posts: 629
|
Post by fishy999 on Oct 2, 2015 20:59:08 GMT -5
I don't necessarily agree with arming everyone. But I can see how if your goal is to kill as many people as possible in a mass shooting, a "gun free zone" would make a tantalizing target. Sure it could be- but that is not the normal case, nor the case here. It was not a gun free zone, and he was a student. If we are going to talk about solutions then that false narrative has to go away- yet it was the first thing out of the mouths of numerous pundits and media types before fact one came out.
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,161
|
Post by tallguy on Oct 2, 2015 21:44:06 GMT -5
link
And from the story right below in the link:
About the only thing I can say on the subject now is that the world would ultimately be a much better and safer place if every gun blew up in its owner's hands....
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Oct 2, 2015 22:28:19 GMT -5
Let's get to the mass murder point of guns. The founding fathers had no future vision of anything but a rifle and a hand gun. Defense and hunting. There is no need for a sane person to own the fire power these weapons have. No need to go to McDonald's with a semiautomatic rifle around your shoulder. Hey is that thing loaded? Oh how did you accidentally shoot yourself or a friend? The Virginia Tech shooter had 2 handguns. Btw hunting has nothing to do with the right to bear arms. We have the right to own guns beyond hunting.
|
|
fishy999
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 9, 2015 20:40:43 GMT -5
Posts: 629
|
Post by fishy999 on Oct 2, 2015 23:19:18 GMT -5
That's what it boils down to- we are a gun culture and as such we choose to accept the constant violence.
Coming soon to your town- restaurant, school, workplace, mall- want to talk about terrorism, we are living it. Never know when some 'good guy with a gun' loses it and shoots up a crowd. We do nothing- so bring on the next one I guess- I give it less than a week.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,411
|
Post by thyme4change on Oct 2, 2015 23:26:51 GMT -5
I would like to see more emphasis on identification and treatment of mental illness than on guns.
|
|
msventoux
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 12, 2011 22:32:37 GMT -5
Posts: 3,014
|
Post by msventoux on Oct 2, 2015 23:48:14 GMT -5
That's just crazy talk.
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Oct 3, 2015 0:12:39 GMT -5
Not to mention if you say that mentally ill people can't own guns, I'm sure more than a few will choose not to seek treatment. ETA... man it's stupid internet vocabulary fail day. I've made the you're/your mistake and now the chose/choose... is it time to go home yet! Parents/siblings/coworkers could report mentally ill people who are making threats and behaving erratically to the police, and the person could have the choice of going in for an evaluation or having his ability to legally purchase fire arms put on hold. Yes, someone might report someone who isn't mentally ill but only blowing off steam, but in that case, they would only have to visit a psychiatrist to straighten it out and gain back the ability to purchase legal weapons. And even if the psychiatrist drug his feet, or even initially rejected him, I'd rather error on the side of caution than continue to let violent, deranged people have easy access to weapons. OMG that is just nothing but a recipe for a disaster. Not only every time you piss someone off they can report you, but any time you deal with govt bureaucracy - it will take a lot more than a "visit o a psychiatrist" to get your life together. The next thing you know - just like sexual predators - there will be lists of "unstable" people who live near you.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 3, 2015 0:55:17 GMT -5
I don't necessarily agree with arming everyone. But I can see how if your goal is to kill as many people as possible in a mass shooting, a "gun free zone" would make a tantalizing target. Sure it could be- but that is not the normal case, nor the case here. It was not a gun free zone, and he was a student. If we are going to talk about solutions then that false narrative has to go away- yet it was the first thing out of the mouths of numerous pundits and media types before fact one came out. Most campuses are gun free zones. I have not worked or been on one that was not. Not only that, campus security does not carry either. Even if the state allows it, the campus can forbid it. The charge changes from where you lose your gun rights totally to you jut being asked to leave and it is considered trespassing though. I read one report tht someone was carrying, but chose not to use their weapon to keep from being identified as the shooter. That was a smart move on his part IMO. FWIW, the last campus I worked on, if you were caught carrying on campus, you could be expelled if you were a student and fired if an employee. Security sucked and there were regular sexual assaults.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Oct 3, 2015 7:17:24 GMT -5
Sorry, but all I hear from Obama is gun control, gun control, gun control. I have yet to hear him speak about mental illness or anything like that.
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Oct 3, 2015 7:25:57 GMT -5
That's what it boils down to- we are a gun culture and as such we choose to accept the constant violence. Coming soon to your town- restaurant, school, workplace, mall- want to talk about terrorism, we are living it. Never know when some 'good guy with a gun' loses it and shoots up a crowd. We do nothing- so bring on the next one I guess- I give it less than a week. Never know when some ' good guy with a gun' loses it and shoots up a crowd. "good guy"??
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Oct 3, 2015 7:31:06 GMT -5
In a lot of these cases, it was clear the shooter did have mental issues. But, the guns used belonged to family members. How are you going to police that?
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Oct 3, 2015 7:50:08 GMT -5
I have my weapons locked up when not in use. If I lived close to a family member that wasn't wrapped tight, I'd be even more careful. DD carried on campus when she went to school. Yes, it wasn't allowed, and yes, a ton of students did. I'd rather her expelled than dead. Btw, there were shootings on her campus so I was glad she carried. She's a better shot than I am even! I'm carrying DH's designated carry gun. I'm not a fan of it but it's smaller than my Smith which I totally love. I couldn't live with myself if I saw people dying and did nothing about it, just watched them get shot when I could have prevented it. For some bizarre reason, the mentally ill have more rights than those that aren't and until we fix that problem, these problems will occur. I started carrying because DH's ex was nuts. Once she was aware that I carried and that I had zero issue with shooting her, she stopped harassing me/us. She wasn't THAT nuts and most of these people aren't. They know what they are doing and if they thought they'd get blown away first, it'd stop a lot of it. You don't hear a lot about the knockout game anymore since a few of them got shot. I think the people that play that "game" are nuts but when they can't find a "victim" they stop doing it. As a former teacher, I saw plenty of students that I felt someday we'd read about on the news. It's just a matter of time. Time to re-open those mental institutions and make family liable for family that they know aren't mentally healthy but choose to do nothing or feel there's nothing they can do. If a psychologist signs off that the person is healthy, the family is off the hook and the psychologist is liable if the person commits mayhem. Schools can target these children as well and maybe turn them in a better direction but some of these children just seem to be born with no conscience at all. Those need to be locked up and the key thrown away as they will never assimilate into society. I'm just waiting for the one to make the news but he may already be dead and I just don't know about it. I'll find out in a few months because I'll be at my monthly retired teacher dinners and the classroom teacher that had him attends those.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Oct 3, 2015 8:25:25 GMT -5
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,499
|
Post by Tennesseer on Oct 3, 2015 8:28:15 GMT -5
Sorry, but all I hear from Obama is gun control, gun control, gun control. I have yet to hear him speak about mental illness or anything like that. Well of course you have never heard Obama speak about mental illness because you have your fingertips in your ears and going 'He's a liberal. La, la, la, la, la.' Obama on Oregon school shooting (full transcript) "We don't yet know why this individual did what he did. And it's fair to say that anybody who does this has a sickness in their minds. Regardless of what they think their motivations may be. But we are not the only country on earth that has people with mental illnesses who want to do harm to other people."
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Oct 3, 2015 8:29:11 GMT -5
I have my weapons locked up when not in use. If I lived close to a family member that wasn't wrapped tight, I'd be even more careful. DD carried on campus when she went to school. Yes, it wasn't allowed, and yes, a ton of students did. I'd rather her expelled than dead. Btw, there were shootings on her campus so I was glad she carried. She's a better shot than I am even! I'm carrying DH's designated carry gun. I'm not a fan of it but it's smaller than my Smith which I totally love. I couldn't live with myself if I saw people dying and did nothing about it, just watched them get shot when I could have prevented it. For some bizarre reason, the mentally ill have more rights than those that aren't and until we fix that problem, these problems will occur. I started carrying because DH's ex was nuts. Once she was aware that I carried and that I had zero issue with shooting her, she stopped harassing me/us. She wasn't THAT nuts and most of these people aren't. They know what they are doing and if they thought they'd get blown away first, it'd stop a lot of it. You don't hear a lot about the knockout game anymore since a few of them got shot. I think the people that play that "game" are nuts but when they can't find a "victim" they stop doing it. As a former teacher, I saw plenty of students that I felt someday we'd read about on the news. It's just a matter of time. Time to re-open those mental institutions and make family liable for family that they know aren't mentally healthy but choose to do nothing or feel there's nothing they can do. If a psychologist signs off that the person is healthy, the family is off the hook and the psychologist is liable if the person commits mayhem. Schools can target these children as well and maybe turn them in a better direction but some of these children just seem to be born with no conscience at all. Those need to be locked up and the key thrown away as they will never assimilate into society. I'm just waiting for the one to make the news but he may already be dead and I just don't know about it. I'll find out in a few months because I'll be at my monthly retired teacher dinners and the classroom teacher that had him attends those. Well, we see how well restraining orders work don't we? How more laws don't stop whackadoodles.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Oct 3, 2015 8:29:42 GMT -5
Sorry, but all I hear from Obama is gun control, gun control, gun control. I have yet to hear him speak about mental illness or anything like that. Well of course you have never heard Obama speak about mental illness because you have your fingertips in your ears and going 'He's a liberal. La, la, la, la, la.' Obama on Oregon school shooting (full transcript) "We don't yet know why this individual did what he did. And it's fair to say that anybody who does this has a sickness in their minds. Regardless of what they think their motivations may be. But we are not the only country on earth that has people with mental illnesses who want to do harm to other people."And....he is proposing WHAT exactly?
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 3, 2015 8:30:06 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure out how in the hell we get to "ban all guns" from "regulate gun ownership." They're not the same thing. There are many types and levels of mental illness. Being a loner isn't a mental illness. It's a preference, as is living with one's mother or holding a particular political view. None of those would get you institutionalized. When we had people present to the ER with mental/emotional problems, we didn't put them in the high risk area unless they showed signs of violence, or an intent to harm themselves or others. That's really not that complicated. i don't think that is what Phoenix is saying. he is saying that babies, the mentally ill, violent sex offenders, and everyone else has a right to a gun, because it is in the constitution. therefore, we can't do anything about it. but he forgets that the constitution specifies a right to slaves. there is no right to vote in the constitution. there are a lot of things that are IN the constitution that are not considered sacred- that are considered changeable, and there are many that are NOT in the constitution that ARE considered sacred, and unchangeable. this idea that somehow the 2nd amendment precludes sensible regulations is DUMB. the second amendment talks about militias. do you want a crazy in your militia? how about a baby? how about the blind? is there REALLY no way that you can restrict ANY gun use whatsoever because of the 2nd? THAT seems nuts to me. I don't have a problem with denying purchasing of firearms to criminals with a criminal record. Here's the thing, the ability to own a gun is a fundamental civil right. And in order for any civil right to be taken away, you need due process of law. Anyone with a criminal background has gone through due process, and I have no problem denying them access to firearms. The mentally ill are a different matter. When you start talking about denying a civil right to the mentally ill, you quickly start to run into many issues. First, there's basic HIPPA laws. Second, there's the law of unintended consequences, people who own guns and might have mental illness issues might then not seek treatment. Third, the vast majority of the mentally ill are not dangerous. Fourth, as stated above, it's not right to take away a fundamental civil right without due process of law. Fifth, how are you even going to find the dangerously mentally ill in the general population? Can you start forcing people to see qualified psychologists? Sure, I agree that keeping guns out of the hands of the dangerously mentally ill is a good thing, but I don't see how you can go about it in a fair and just manner. And I support fundamental gun safety and education. I'm fine with classes and other things to teach people how to lock up and secure their guns.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Oct 3, 2015 8:31:50 GMT -5
What law would have stopped any of these shootings? WHat process would have been enacted to prevent these? HOW would the process have worked? Tell me.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,499
|
Post by Tennesseer on Oct 3, 2015 8:33:34 GMT -5
Well of course you have never heard Obama speak about mental illness because you have your fingertips in your ears and going 'He's a liberal. La, la, la, la, la.' Obama on Oregon school shooting (full transcript) "We don't yet know why this individual did what he did. And it's fair to say that anybody who does this has a sickness in their minds. Regardless of what they think their motivations may be. But we are not the only country on earth that has people with mental illnesses who want to do harm to other people."And....he is proposing WHAT exactly? What's the matter, lalala Shooby? He spoke about it. You didn't ask for what he was going to do about it.
|
|