U.S. Soldiers Told to Ignore Sexual Abuse of Boys

[Deleted]

 by Afghan Allies
www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?ribbon-ad-idx=6&rref=world/asia&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Asia%20Pacific&pgtype=article

“At night we can hear them screaming, but we’re not allowed to do anything about it,” the Marine’s father, Gregory Buckley Sr., recalled his son telling him before he was shot to death at the base in 2012. He urged his son to tell his superiors. “My son said that his officers told him to look the other way because it’s their culture.”


Rampant sexual abuse of children has long been a problem in Afghanistan, particularly among armed commanders who dominate much of the rural landscape and can bully the population. The practice is called bacha bazi, literally “boy play,” and American soldiers and Marines have been instructed not to intervene — in some cases, not even when their Afghan allies have abused boys on military bases, according to interviews and court records.


Uhh

[sesfw]

This makes me ill ...........


No child should live in fear and pain.

[Deleted]

Think of this article next time you hear about our soldiers being "heroes"  I know some are, but clearly some are not.

[zibazinski]

Our soldiers aren't molesting little boys as far as I know. Do you know differently.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2015 19:57:48 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Our soldiers aren't molesting little boys as far as I know. Do you know differently.

shhhh... facts will only confuse the issue.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2015 20:06:48 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 21, 2015 19:57:48 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Our soldiers aren't molesting little boys as far as I know. Do you know differently.

shhhh... facts will only confuse the issue.

the fact that our soldiers are just sitting there listening to little boys get raped?  How is that confusing you?  Is it the moral aspect of it?  Are you confused on whether it is okay to sit there and do nothing while a rape of a child is happening within earshot?

[Deleted]

It's not our country, it's not our culture, and it's not our society.

Does it suck that they have to ignore this? Yes. Abso-friggin-lutely. But it's not the job of an American soldier to interfere with the local customs of the inhabitants of an area. You cannot force change on someone (a society) against their will... change MUST come from within. When THEY are ready for change... they will change.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2015 20:08:08 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Sept 21, 2015 20:06:48 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

shhhh... facts will only confuse the issue.

the fact that our soldiers are just sitting there listening to little boys get raped?  How is that confusing you?  Is it the moral aspect of it?  Are you confused on whether it is okay to sit there and do nothing while a rape of a child is happening within earshot?

It's not in the least confusing to me.

You were the one confused about the soldier's responsibilities "while in country". You were the one suggesting that people NOT consider them heroes because they are doing their jobs in a dangerous place. 

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2015 20:17:56 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It's not our country, it's not our culture, and it's not our society.

Does it suck that they have to ignore this? Yes. Abso-friggin-lutely. But it's not the job of an American soldier to interfere with the local customs of the inhabitants of an area. You cannot force change on someone (a society) against their will... change MUST come from within. When THEY are ready for change... they will change.

so what the **** are we doing there if not to change something?  Anyone who sits by while a kid is raped and listens to it is not a hero. If you want to say they are doing their job, and that counts for something, I don't know what.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2015 20:21:32 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Sept 21, 2015 20:17:56 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It's not our country, it's not our culture, and it's not our society.

Does it suck that they have to ignore this? Yes. Abso-friggin-lutely. But it's not the job of an American soldier to interfere with the local customs of the inhabitants of an area. You cannot force change on someone (a society) against their will... change MUST come from within. When THEY are ready for change... they will change.

so what the **** are we doing there if not to change something?  Anyone who sits by while a kid is raped and listens to it is not a hero. If you want to say they are doing their job, and that counts for something, I don't know what.

Have you forgotten already why we went into Afghanistan? You might want to check out some documentaries on 9-11 and the Taliban's support of Al-Qaeda.

We didn't "go in there" to change their internal culture. We "went in there" to root out terrorists and to remove a government that supported terrorists.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2015 20:52:58 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 21, 2015 20:21:32 GMT -5 @hickle said:

so what the **** are we doing there if not to change something?  Anyone who sits by while a kid is raped and listens to it is not a hero. If you want to say they are doing their job, and that counts for something, I don't know what.

Have you forgotten already why we went into Afghanistan? You might want to check out some documentaries on 9-11 and the Taliban's support of Al-Qaeda.

We didn't "go in there" to change their internal culture. We "went in there" to root out terrorists and to remove a government that supported terrorists.

yeah, that's what we are doing.  Our soldiers are sitting there listening to kids get raped because it roots out terrorists.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2015 20:54:55 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Sept 21, 2015 20:52:58 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Have you forgotten already why we went into Afghanistan? You might want to check out some documentaries on 9-11 and the Taliban's support of Al-Qaeda.

We didn't "go in there" to change their internal culture. We "went in there" to root out terrorists and to remove a government that supported terrorists.

yeah, that's what we are doing.  Our soldiers are sitting there listening to kids get raped because it roots out terrorists.

No. Our soldiers are still there because the replacement government isn't "stable" yet.

You really don't have a clue about this... do you?

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2015 21:35:29 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 21, 2015 20:54:55 GMT -5 @hickle said:

yeah, that's what we are doing.  Our soldiers are sitting there listening to kids get raped because it roots out terrorists.

No. Our soldiers are still there because the replacement government isn't "stable" yet.

You really don't have a clue about this... do you?

apparently not

[Value Buy]

Sept 21, 2015 20:21:32 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Sept 21, 2015 20:17:56 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It's not our country, it's not our culture, and it's not our society.

Does it suck that they have to ignore this? Yes. Abso-friggin-lutely. But it's not the job of an American soldier to interfere with the local customs of the inhabitants of an area. You cannot force change on someone (a society) against their will... change MUST come from within. When THEY are ready for change... they will change.

so what the **** are we doing there if not to change something?  Anyone who sits by while a kid is raped and listens to it is not a hero. If you want to say they are doing their job, and that counts for something, I don't know what.

When I had the privilege of being drafted and sent to Vietnam, we were all given class lessons on the do's and don'ts that we would encounter incountry with the Vietnamese population, and we were to be cognizant of their customs and the differences we would see. We were also told to be nice about it, and stay clear.
Hearts and minds,
hearts and minds,
Didn't work well back then either.
Not that we would encounter such atrocities as this, but it was about winning the hearts and minds of the people as well as the government in charge at the time.
I am simply trying to give everyone a perspective from the military and political side of the fight there, but I agree, this is stone cold wrong.

[chiver78]

Sept 21, 2015 21:53:43 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Sept 21, 2015 20:21:32 GMT -5 @hickle said:

so what the **** are we doing there if not to change something?  Anyone who sits by while a kid is raped and listens to it is not a hero. If you want to say they are doing their job, and that counts for something, I don't know what.

When I had the privilege of being drafted and sent to Vietnam, we were all given class lessons on the do's and don'ts that we would encounter incountry with the Vietnamese population, and we were to be cognizant of their customs and the differences we would see. We were also told to be nice about it, and stay clear.
Hearts and minds,
hearts and minds,
Didn't work well back then either.
Not that we would encounter such atrocities as this, but it was about winning the hearts and minds of the people as well as the government in charge at the time.
I am simply trying to give everyone a perspective from the military and political side of the fight there, but I agree, this is stone cold wrong.

there were things that were wrong back then, too. "comfort women" may have been adults as far as their calendar age, but they were in no way less abused in their experiences.

that said, and it may have been you that made the comment, but it is not our country, and we are there to help at the whims of those in charge. as much as it sucks to stand by and watch shit happen, our troops are ultimately on those lands at the behest of the rulers in charge. if it's that atrocious to you (collective) then lobby your senators and representatives to pull troops until the Universal Declaration of Human Rights will be honored. or, whatever your chosen charge may be.

and no, I'm not defending any of it. but I recognize that my beliefs are not honored by the laws of that land over there. I'd change it if I could, but I alone can't.

[Deleted]

what a sick world we live in where rape of children is ignored for politics. It is within earshot. We are the strongest military in the world and we're scared of what will happen if we let a few soldiers stand up and stop a child getting raped.  If that is really who we are, I hope we fail.

[chiver78]

I won't lie, I don't disagree with you. what we are doing over there isn't worth it, IMHO. so to overlook stuff like this, to me, is selling our souls. but I don't have anything to do with agreeing to the terms of how and why we are there, what we will accomplish while we're there, or anything else related to it. we are still subject to their laws while over there, and that includes the military operating under their blessing. I don't like that, but it's what was agreed to.

as far as Americans being held to foreign laws, look up Michael Fay other than the Wiki link I've given here. IMHO, unless you are in some other country taking it over under US rule, you can't expect anything other than to live by that country's rule and customs. either that, or have a shit ton of $ or diplomatic immunity. good luck otherwise.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 21, 2015 21:53:43 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Sept 21, 2015 20:21:32 GMT -5 @hickle said:

so what the **** are we doing there if not to change something?  Anyone who sits by while a kid is raped and listens to it is not a hero. If you want to say they are doing their job, and that counts for something, I don't know what.

When I had the privilege of being drafted and sent to Vietnam, we were all given class lessons on the do's and don'ts that we would encounter incountry with the Vietnamese population, and we were to be cognizant of their customs and the differences we would see. We were also told to be nice about it, and stay clear.
Hearts and minds,
hearts and minds,
Didn't work well back then either.
Not that we would encounter such atrocities as this, but it was about winning the hearts and minds of the people as well as the government in charge at the time.
I am simply trying to give everyone a perspective from the military and political side of the fight there, but I agree, this is stone cold wrong.

If being drafted was a privilege, then what was voluntarily joining the military-a misfortune?

[Tennesseer]

The history of Bacha bazi.

Bacha Bazi

[mmhmm]

I've never served in the Armed Forces but, as I understand it, if you're given an order by a superior officer(s) you have to obey that order or, possibly, face a court martial. Soldiers don't get to decide which orders they're going to follow and which they're not going to follow, do they? Since they've been told not to interfere, am I wrong to assume some pretty strong consequences could result if one, or more of them disobeyed the orders they were given? What would happen if several decided to interfere, despite orders not to do so, and one or more of them were killed or badly injured?  This is a serious question from someone who really doesn't have a clue what the answer might be.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2015 22:12:59 GMT -5 @hickle said:

what a sick world we live in where rape of children is ignored for politics. It is within earshot. We are the strongest military in the world and we're scared of what will happen if we let a few soldiers stand up and stop a child getting raped.  If that is really who we are, I hope we fail.

It's not "ignored". It's just something that we can't do anything about. You do understand the difference I hope.

Just curious... how would it help if (for example) a squad of soldiers took down a warlord that was abusing a kid, and then the Afghan government told us to "get the fuck out!"... so we had to leave, then the Taliban took back over (because the whole point of us still being there is to keep the "good" government viable)... and we had 9-11 (version 2.0) shortly thereafter because the Taliban let the terrorists train in their country again?

Yes. We'd save the boy. Good for us. But we'd lose the country and all the people that died afterwards in all the terrorist attacks that came from the camps the Taliban allowed. Is that a good trade for you?


For the record, I think what's happening is a heinous crime not only against the kids, but against human decency itself... but there's not much I can do about it... is there?

[Deleted]

does it damage our soldiers psychologically to make them just sit there and do nothing?

[zibazinski]

Probably but we have been taught that pedophiles and rapists are bad. I agree because this is how I was taught. I was also taught that incest was wrong but in some cultures, it isn't. It's not my place to tell another culture their culture is wrong. I didn't like that our women soldiers had to wear head scarves and were treated like shit in countries I consider to not be worth the blood of our soldiers. But that was their culture. Accept it or not.

[Value Buy]

Sept 21, 2015 22:32:45 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Sept 21, 2015 21:53:43 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

When I had the privilege of being drafted and sent to Vietnam, we were all given class lessons on the do's and don'ts that we would encounter incountry with the Vietnamese population, and we were to be cognizant of their customs and the differences we would see. We were also told to be nice about it, and stay clear.
Hearts and minds,
hearts and minds,
Didn't work well back then either.
Not that we would encounter such atrocities as this, but it was about winning the hearts and minds of the people as well as the government in charge at the time.
I am simply trying to give everyone a perspective from the military and political side of the fight there, but I agree, this is stone cold wrong.

If being drafted was a privilege, then what was voluntarily joining the military-a misfortune?

do not assume being drafted was not a privilege. I thought it was terrible when I received the draft notice in 1969. The end of my little insulated world.
Turned out not to be. I learned a lot about the world and myself in those two years.
I will not deny I had a rather easy tour in Vietnam, if anyone can say it was "easy".
Emotionally, you never knew for a fact what might happen each day.
For many GI'S it was a physical and emotional nightmare, for myself, more just emotional.
Please do not turn this discussion about me.
TY

[Value Buy]

Sept 21, 2015 22:40:30 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I've never served in the Armed Forces but, as I understand it, if you're given an order by a superior officer(s) you have to obey that order or, possibly, face a court martial. Soldiers don't get to decide which orders they're going to follow and which they're not going to follow, do they? Since they've been told not to interfere, am I wrong to assume some pretty strong consequences could result if one, or more of them disobeyed the orders they were given? What would happen if several decided to interfere, despite orders not to do so, and one or more of them were killed or badly injured?  This is a serious question from someone who really doesn't have a clue what the answer might be.

Sort of true, I guess. You could file a formal complaint, and then find your transferred to a forward observation point in the middle of nowhere taking fire every day within a week or so.

Granted in today's armed forces, that might not happen because everyone is so specialized in training, plus you are assigned to an National Guard unit with very limited assignment duties....... so it may not happen to a majority of soldiers stationed there.

[busymom]

Granted, WWII was a long time ago, but Dad told me that no one dared to disobey an order. The least that would happen to you (in the Navy) was that your commanding officer would make your life miserable. Even those who asked questions were often punished.  Sadly, when I was of age, Dad told me to stay OUT of the service. (He also said it was no place for a lady.)

I wonder if things happening like this is why the suicide rate among those in the armed services is so high now? Maybe they get back home, & their conscience is gnawing on them.

[Opti]

The end of Tenn's link has a story about someone who did something. Because of it he left the military.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 21, 2015 11:49:22 GMT -5 @xmascookie said:

 by Afghan Allies
www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?ribbon-ad-idx=6&rref=world/asia&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Asia%20Pacific&pgtype=article

“At night we can hear them screaming, but we’re not allowed to do anything about it,” the Marine’s father, Gregory Buckley Sr., recalled his son telling him before he was shot to death at the base in 2012. He urged his son to tell his superiors. “My son said that his officers told him to look the other way because it’s their culture.”


Rampant sexual abuse of children has long been a problem in Afghanistan, particularly among armed commanders who dominate much of the rural landscape and can bully the population. The practice is called bacha bazi, literally “boy play,” and American soldiers and Marines have been instructed not to intervene — in some cases, not even when their Afghan allies have abused boys on military bases, according to interviews and court records.


Uhh

THANK YOU for starting this thread.  It seems rather pro-forma for the left to stand up for child predators.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 21, 2015 22:52:12 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 21, 2015 22:12:59 GMT -5 @hickle said:

what a sick world we live in where rape of children is ignored for politics. It is within earshot. We are the strongest military in the world and we're scared of what will happen if we let a few soldiers stand up and stop a child getting raped.  If that is really who we are, I hope we fail.

It's not "ignored". It's just something that we can't do anything about. You do understand the difference I hope.

Just curious... how would it help if (for example) a squad of soldiers took down a warlord that was abusing a kid, and then the Afghan government told us to "get the fuck out!"... so we had to leave, then the Taliban took back over (because the whole point of us still being there is to keep the "good" government viable)... and we had 9-11 (version 2.0) shortly thereafter because the Taliban let the terrorists train in their country again?

Yes. We'd save the boy. Good for us. But we'd lose the country and all the people that died afterwards in all the terrorist attacks that came from the camps the Taliban allowed. Is that a good trade for you?


For the record, I think what's happening is a heinous crime not only against the kids, but against human decency itself... but there's not much I can do about it... is there?

Depends on why we can't do anything about it. Can we actually not do anything about it, or are our soldiers "just following orders" and obeying orders which are the result of our policy to look the other way on child sex abuse because it is a "cultural norm" in muslim countries who follow in the footsteps a murdering pedophile prophet?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Oh, wait. It turns out we can do something about it.