What is Your Name and Gender Pronoun?

[Virgil Showlion]

Sept 3, 2015 19:21:53 GMT -5 Malarky said:

Sept 3, 2015 19:18:05 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nope.

It sounds to me like somebody needs gender pronoun sensitivity training. Xe just hasn't got with the program.

Sorry.Not.Sorry.  Taking my marbles and going home until sanity prevails again.  

I'm OK if you want/need to be different.  I'm not OK if your going to try to pee in my bathroom and change my beloved language.  

Bold words, but they'll convert you yet.

We'll see how long your principles last ten years from now when your employer makes it perfectly clear that Beau, a genetic male who identifies as intersexed, can choose which washroom to use at xyr discretion and that xe is to be referenced using 'xe' and 'xyr' in accordance with the Positive Workplace Non-Discrimination Act of 2023. Non-compliant employees will find themselves out looking for another job. The problem being that you won't find a decent job anywhere that doesn't hold a similar zero-tolerance policy.

I won't be there, but the moment you realize resistance isn't worth it and "I guess if xe wants me to." passes resignedly through your lips, I want you to think back to this moment and my prophesying.

[Malarky]

Sept 3, 2015 19:52:50 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Sept 3, 2015 19:21:53 GMT -5 Malarky said:

Sorry.Not.Sorry.  Taking my marbles and going home until sanity prevails again.  

I'm OK if you want/need to be different.  I'm not OK if your going to try to pee in my bathroom and change my beloved language.  

Bold words, but they'll convert you yet.

We'll see how long your principles last ten years from now when your employer makes it perfectly clear that Beau, a genetic male who identifies as intersexed, can choose which washroom to use at xyr discretion and that xe is to be referenced using 'xe' and 'xyr' in accordance with the Positive Workplace Non-Discrimination Act of 2023. Non-compliant employees will find themselves out looking for another job. The problem being that you won't find a decent job anywhere that doesn't hold a similar zero-tolerance policy.

I won't be there, but the moment you realize resistance isn't worth it and "I guess if xe wants me to." passes resignedly through your lips, I want you to think back to this moment and my prophesying.

The goddesses willing...I'll either be dead or retired 10 years from now.

And I've been swimming against the tide since the day I stepped out on my own.  Luckily I'm big fish in little pond who is mostly immune to this sort of thing.  

I'll be perfectly content judging the world from the sidelines snacking on my can of Fancy Feast.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

"

Toronto's mailpersons (mailpeople?) are always friendly." But then "mailpersons" would probably be mistaken for "male persons", hence again we safely default to "Toronto's postal employees are always friendly.

I just call them Letter Carriers. That's the PC term that Canada Post uses. That's about as gender-neutral as you can get for "mailman"

[Deleted]

When a "gender neutral" pronoun is called for, I do wish we had one... but not for all the trans people. Use the pronoun that's appropriate to your physical characteristics. When you stop having a penis you can stop being called "he", when you start having a penis (that you didn't have before) you can start being called "he".

Gender neutral pronouns should only be used when the gender is unknown... for example: "I need to speak to the manager. Is {GNP} available?"

[Deleted]

I call people he or she all the time even though I have never seen their penis or vagina... as such can not really be sure they have one...

[Deleted]

I just had a thought... maybe "gnp" (pronounced "nip") could be the "gender neutral pronoun"!

[Deleted]

I actually think ze sounds enough like he and she. If someone was using it in a sentence, others might hear what they 'wanted to hear'...

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2015 21:53:22 GMT -5 oped said:

I call people he or she all the time even though I have never seen their penis or vagina... as such can not really be sure they have one...

I bet you take your cues from something though... be it their clothes or their hair or the twin lumps (or lack of them) in their shirt or the bulge (or lack of one) in their pants... something.  

You don't just do it at random. It's not like you wake up every day and think: "I'll use male for the first three, then female for the next five then back to male for one, then female for four, then male for seven..."

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2015 21:59:56 GMT -5 oped said:

I actually think ze sounds enough like he and she. If someone was using it in a sentence, others might hear what they 'wanted to hear'...

I agree "ze" fails.

[Virgil Showlion]

Sept 3, 2015 21:50:09 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

When a "gender neutral" pronoun is called for, I do wish we had one... but not for all the trans people. Use the pronoun that's appropriate to your physical characteristics. When you stop having a penis you can stop being called "he", when you start having a penis (that you didn't have before) you can start being called "he".

Gender neutral pronouns should only be used when the gender is unknown... for example: "I need to speak to the manager. Is {GNP} available?"

Most people default to singular "they", which has long since been considered proper contemporary English.

For your example, "I need to speak to the manager. Are they available?"

"When a person visits YMAM, they're reading a little piece of heaven."
"I saw somebody lurking outside, but there's no way they can get in here."

[Deleted]

Actually I thought that made it work...  

Yes, as you noted, I take the cues from what they tell me their gender is... Not from their penis or vagina.

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2015 22:05:24 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Sept 3, 2015 21:50:09 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

When a "gender neutral" pronoun is called for, I do wish we had one... but not for all the trans people. Use the pronoun that's appropriate to your physical characteristics. When you stop having a penis you can stop being called "he", when you start having a penis (that you didn't have before) you can start being called "he".

Gender neutral pronouns should only be used when the gender is unknown... for example: "I need to speak to the manager. Is {GNP} available?"

Most people default to singular "they", which has long since been considered proper contemporary English.

For your example, "I need to speak to the manager. Are they available?"

"When a person visits YMAM, they're reading a little piece of heaven."
"I saw somebody lurking outside, but there's no way they can get in here."

"They" is a plural pronoun. Just because "they" has been accepted forever, doesn't mean that "they" is correct.

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2015 22:09:28 GMT -5 oped said:

Actually I thought that made it work...  

Yes, as you noted, I take the cues from what they tell me their gender is... Not from their penis or vagina.

And when they don't tell you? What then?

[Deleted]

As you noted, most tell you through their choices in clothing, manner, self reference. 

If if they don't and it's a Pat situation (from SNL, not here..) then I'd avoid gender pronouns...

[Virgil Showlion]

Sept 3, 2015 22:11:17 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 3, 2015 22:05:24 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Most people default to singular "they", which has long since been considered proper contemporary English.

For your example, "I need to speak to the manager. Are they available?"

"When a person visits YMAM, they're reading a little piece of heaven."
"I saw somebody lurking outside, but there's no way they can get in here."

"They" is a plural pronoun. Just because "they" has been accepted forever, doesn't mean that "they" is correct.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Singular they is the use in English of the pronoun they, or its inflected or derivative forms, such as them, their, or themselves, as a "pronoun that is neutral between masculine and feminine" [1], to refer to a single person or an antecedent that is grammatically singular. It typically occurs with an antecedent of indeterminate gender, ...

A reason for its use is that English has no dedicated singular personal pronoun of indeterminate gender [5]. In some cases, its use can be explained by notional agreement because words like "everyone", though singular in form, are plural in meaning [6]. Its use in formal English has increased in recent times with the trend toward gender-inclusive language [4], but it has been used by respected writers for centuries [7].

Though singular they has a long history of usage and is common in everyday English, its use has been criticized since the late nineteenth century, and acceptance varies.

If it was good enough for Keats, Hemingway, and Shakespeare, it's good enough for me.

[weltschmerz]

Sept 3, 2015 18:39:10 GMT -5 Malarky said:

Call me racist.  Call me bigoted.  Whatever.  

I'm not playing.  I'm sorry you have body dismorphia.  I'm sorry you aren't comfortable in your own skin.  

I married man.  I'm a female.  I gave birth to a boy and a girl.  I couldn't give a rats ass who you sleep with.  If my kids turn out to be gay, that's fine.  

I'm not making up new words to suit you.  I don't want your penis in my bathroom.  I'm not walking on eggshells in case I might offend you.  

Suck it up Buttercup.  It aint all about you.  Those in the very small minority should be accommodated in the sense of having their own bathroom,  but don't make the majority uncomfortable by saying you "deserve" to be in mine.  Don't I "deserve" to be comfortable as well?  

So, you never call yourself "Ms."?  That was a new, made-up word at one time, that everyone scoffed at.  We got used to it.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I married man. I'm a female. I gave birth to a boy and a girl. I couldn't give a rats ass who you sleep with. If my kids turn out to be gay, that's fine.

Being gay is not the same as being transgender or wanting to go through gender re-assignment.

Would you be as accepting of your son or daughter if one of them came to you and told you they're "trapped in the wrong body/gender" - and they're going to have re-assignment surgery?

Ellen DeGeneres is gay. She's also legally married to another woman. But she doesn't desire having a penis - because she doesn't identify herself as male. She's homosexual - but still 100% female - who happens to be married to another female.

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2015 22:25:25 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Sept 3, 2015 22:11:17 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

"They" is a plural pronoun. Just because "they" has been accepted forever, doesn't mean that "they" is correct.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Singular they is the use in English of the pronoun they, or its inflected or derivative forms, such as them, their, or themselves, as a "pronoun that is neutral between masculine and feminine" [1], to refer to a single person or an antecedent that is grammatically singular. It typically occurs with an antecedent of indeterminate gender, ...

A reason for its use is that English has no dedicated singular personal pronoun of indeterminate gender [5]. In some cases, its use can be explained by notional agreement because words like "everyone", though singular in form, are plural in meaning [6]. Its use in formal English has increased in recent times with the trend toward gender-inclusive language [4], but it has been used by respected writers for centuries [7].

Though singular they has a long history of usage and is common in everyday English, its use has been criticized since the late nineteenth century, and acceptance varies.

If it was good enough for Keats, Hemingway, and Shakespeare, it's good enough for me.

Subject/Verb agreement suggest that "they" is incorrect when addressing a singular individual.

A singular individual "is"
Plural individuals "are"

"Is they in?" would be grammatically incorrect English. But since we KNOW that the "they" in question is singular, "is" is the appropriate verb.

My grammar teacher taught us, the proper pronoun will always fit grammatically correctly in the sentence when swapped with the proper noun.

"Is Bob in?"
"Is He in?"

"Is Mary in?"
"Is she in?"

"Is (the unknown, but singular person) in?"
"is them/they in?" (doesn't work, grammatically speaking)

[weltschmerz]

I wish English had a plural "you". "Y'all" and "youse" just doesn't cut it.

I asked a fellow "How did the Viet Nam war work out for you?" and he had a hissy fit. "I wasn't even born yet! Why are you asking me such a stupid question?"

[thyme4change]

Sept 3, 2015 23:26:06 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I wish English had a plural "you". "Y'all" and "youse" just doesn't cut it.

I asked a fellow "How did the Viet Nam war work out for you?" and he had a hissy fit. "I wasn't even born yet! Why are you asking me such a stupid question?"

I love y'all - for that reason! But sound pretty stupid saying it with an uptight northeast accent.  I agree that we need a plural you that is less regional.

I'm in.

[Robert not Bobby]

I'm incredibly open minded...but this confuses me.

I understand that nature makes mistakes (she can't be perfect) and a man is born into a woman's body or vice versa.

Personally, and I hope I don't offend anyone...I kind of like a woman born in a woman's body.

To me that is natural.

[weltschmerz]

Sept 3, 2015 23:48:03 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Sept 3, 2015 23:26:06 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I wish English had a plural "you". "Y'all" and "youse" just doesn't cut it.

I asked a fellow "How did the Viet Nam war work out for you?" and he had a hissy fit. "I wasn't even born yet! Why are you asking me such a stupid question?"

I love y'all - for that reason! But sound pretty stupid saying it with an uptight northeast accent.  I agree that we need a plural you that is less regional.

I'm in.

I can't say y'all....I'm Canadian.

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2015 0:31:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Sept 3, 2015 23:48:03 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I love y'all - for that reason! But sound pretty stupid saying it with an uptight northeast accent.  I agree that we need a plural you that is less regional.

I'm in.

I can't say y'all....I'm Canadian.

Sure you can. I give you permission... but you have follow it with " 'eh"... so you would say "y'all 'eh"

[weltschmerz]

Sept 4, 2015 1:32:33 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 4, 2015 0:31:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I can't say y'all....I'm Canadian.

Sure you can. I give you permission... but you have follow it with " 'eh"... so you would say "y'all 'eh"

Nah. Sounds too much like "Yahweh".

[Deleted]

LOL!

[Deleted]

How about "y'all, hosers" then?

[MJ2.0]

The way people have been trying me lately, my new unisex greeting is about to be "hey, fuckface!"

[Green Eyed Lady]

LOL!!!

I know I shouldn't laugh, but yeah....it's been that kind of week.

[zibazinski]

I like "YO!"