This thread is not for the faint of heart..nor a fun happy

[deziloooooo]

one...Some might say " well it's not our concern..we have nothing to do with it ..let others get involved , just the way the world is "....that and more can be said but to not know what is happening there and what these people represent and are doing , to me is something along the lines of the little interest that was given during the rise of Nazi ism....remember we joined Cuba, other South American countries in turned back a German ocean liner filled with refugees seeking asylum and sent those folks back to suffer their fate . I wonder if it was done partly because of ignorance as to what was really happening in Germany at the time or just because of the low key feeling toward Jews at the time..

Here we have a dilemma...support Assad and his regime , also Iran, Assads main supporter..Russia too...
they are the ones actually fighting  ISIS[ISIL}...we too are now involved in some way...so it seems we are allied with those we have disagreements with..."The enemy of my enemy is my friend.."I know it is confusing .... I have no answers...I do wonder who these people are besides leadership...to do such things..a 81 year old man, a scholer..no politician...and wonder , forgetting leadership..but those who support and join in ..I guess I believe we should join with others in fighting these people, hoping to destroy this movement and as far as the disagrements with the others..we'll get to those later on if they are still a issue...


www.courant.com/nation-world/ct-islamic-state-beheading-20150819-story.html

[Value Buy]

Cmon, Dezi, the President says they are the JV team.
Hate to see what the varsity team would do.
If he had not tried to throw Assad out of power, ISIL would not be in the power position they are today.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 19, 2015 12:03:13 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Cmon, Dezi, the President says they are the JV team.
Hate to see what the varsity team would do.
If he had not tried to throw Assad out of power, ISIL would not be in the power position they are today.

and if W had not thrown Saddam out of power, ISIL would not be in the power position they are today, either.

Obama is not blameless, but let's not pretend for a second that it started with him.

[Value Buy]

Aug 19, 2015 12:04:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 19, 2015 12:03:13 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Cmon, Dezi, the President says they are the JV team.
Hate to see what the varsity team would do.
If he had not tried to throw Assad out of power, ISIL would not be in the power position they are today.

and if W had not thrown Saddam out of power, ISIL would not be in the power position they are today, either.

Obama is not blameless, but let's not pretend for a second that it started with him.

Agreed, but this President's stance with the Arab Spring has been a disaster.
It seems the best stance anyone can hope for in the entire M.E. is strong dictators who rule with an iron fist.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 19, 2015 12:32:11 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Aug 19, 2015 12:04:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

and if W had not thrown Saddam out of power, ISIL would not be in the power position they are today, either.

Obama is not blameless, but let's not pretend for a second that it started with him.

Agreed, but this President's stance with the Arab Spring has been a disaster.
It seems the best stance anyone can hope for in the entire M.E. is strong dictators who rule with an iron fist.

i am not sure that is true, but i think it is preferable to a vacuum of leadership.

[Value Buy]

Aug 19, 2015 12:32:55 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 19, 2015 12:32:11 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Agreed, but this President's stance with the Arab Spring has been a disaster.
It seems the best stance anyone can hope for in the entire M.E. is strong dictators who rule with an iron fist.

i am not sure that is true, but i think it is preferable to a vacuum of leadership.

I think we can agree due to religious/tribal differences, Democracy cannot succeed there under current religious differences.
Unless the people can break up the countries into tribal regional entities.

[deziloooooo]

Aug 19, 2015 12:32:11 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Aug 19, 2015 12:04:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

and if W had not thrown Saddam out of power, ISIL would not be in the power position they are today, either.

Obama is not blameless, but let's not pretend for a second that it started with him.

Agreed, but this President's stance with the Arab Spring has been a disaster.
It seems the best stance anyone can hope for in the entire M.E. is strong dictators who rule with an iron fist.

Won't agree ...BUT..can't disagree either...

[djAdvocate]

Aug 19, 2015 12:36:23 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Aug 19, 2015 12:32:55 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i am not sure that is true, but i think it is preferable to a vacuum of leadership.

I think we can agree due to religious/tribal differences, Democracy cannot succeed there under current religious differences.
Unless the people can break up the countries into tribal regional entities.

yeah, i don't think devolving into tribalism is the way forward for most places, either. 

this is a really big mess, now.  not sure how we get out of it.

[deziloooooo]

Aug 19, 2015 12:36:23 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Aug 19, 2015 12:32:55 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i am not sure that is true, but i think it is preferable to a vacuum of leadership.

I think we can agree due to religious/tribal differences, Democracy cannot succeed there under current religious differences.
Unless the people can break up the countries into tribal regional entities.

Have to wonder in a way how we survive as we do..Is there any more diverse country ion this planet..so many different foks, tribes, religious groups found anywhere and yet , besides a occasional blip at times..we just smoothly roll along..even to the point were political correction to right wrongs seems to be the way lately..

Possible because there are so many diverse groups is the answer, not just one or two...

[Tennesseer]

Aug 19, 2015 12:44:58 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Aug 19, 2015 12:36:23 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I think we can agree due to religious/tribal differences, Democracy cannot succeed there under current religious differences.
Unless the people can break up the countries into tribal regional entities.

Have to wonder in a way how we survive as we do..Is there any more diverse country ion this planet..so many different foks, tribes, religious groups found anywhere and yet , besides a occasional blip at times..we just smoothly roll along..even to the point were political correction to right wrongs seems to be the way lately..

Possible because there are so many diverse groups is the answer, not just one or two...

Dezi-we're a young country and area of the world compared to the Middle East. Tribal and blood feuds there go back thousands of years.

Give us time, maybe 400-500 years (maybe far, far less) and you could the same type of sectarian activity here that they currently experience there.

[Value Buy]

Tennesseer, I liked your post, but darn, I hope you are wrong.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 19, 2015 13:27:40 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Tennesseer, I liked your post, but darn, I hope you are wrong.

At least you and I won't be around to have to worry about it, VB. Everyone else will have to fend for themselves.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 19, 2015 16:18:15 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Aug 19, 2015 12:04:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

and if W had not thrown Saddam out of power, ISIL would not be in the power position they are today, either.

Obama is not blameless, but let's not pretend for a second that it started with him.

So,  now Saddam is the good guy,  really did you type that with a straight face?? 

no, i didn't say anything about "good guys".  you came up with that all on your own.  how was your face when you did it? 

[djAdvocate]

for the record, Saddam was our buddy when he gassed the kurds, Sroo.  you know that, right?  we even helped him do it.  yay, us! 

[djAdvocate]

Aug 19, 2015 16:28:23 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Aug 19, 2015 16:25:43 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

no, i didn't say anything about "good guys".  you came up with that all on your own.  how was your face when you did it? 

Incredulous. 

Ok,  so I'm glad I misunderstood you.  Can you explain a bit more of your earlier comment.   I get that you think (rightly so) that a vacuum of power was created.  But do you think that we (global we) were better off with Saddam? 

no.  but i think we were better off without the vacuum.  the question then becomes was there a way to avoid it?  i contend that there was.  but our strategy in Iraq was so flawed that we never considered the idea that the country would plunge into chaos if Saddam was removed.  that was OUR mistake.  if you break stuff, you are responsible for it.  at least that is what my dad taught me.

[Robert not Bobby]

The big lesson here is, don't interfere in other countries domestic politics.

I am by no mean an islolationist, but the idea that we can replicate American democracy (as crass, money drive and imperfect as it is), in the Arab world is a lamentable joke with serious consequences which are always destabilizing and bite us in the ass.

With the exception of Turkey and Iran (Persians), that entire region is still hundreds of years away from democracy and decency.

Just get out of there.

Let them be masters of their own patch of desert.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 19, 2015 16:39:21 GMT -5 Robert not Bobby said:

The big lesson here is, don't interfere in other countries domestic politics.

I am by no mean an islolationist, but the idea that we can replicate American democracy (as crass, money drive and imperfect as it is), in the Arab world is a lamentable joke with serious consequences which are always destabilizing and bite us in the ass.

With the exception of Turkey and Iran (Persians), that entire region is still hundreds of years away from democracy and decency.

Just get out of there.

Let them be masters of their own patch of desert.

i think people in the US generally think that there is only interventionism and isolationism.  that is actually not true.  there is a grey zone between the two that Reagan once called "constructive engagement".  it is NON-INTERVENTIONISM.  it is how we used to do things before WW2, and it won us a lot of friends in the world.  we should really get back to it.

[Value Buy]

Aug 19, 2015 16:46:39 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Aug 19, 2015 16:34:35 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

no.  but i think we were better off without the vacuum.  the question then becomes was there a way to avoid it?  i contend that there was.  but our strategy in Iraq was so flawed that we never considered the idea that the country would plunge into chaos if Saddam was removed.  that was OUR mistake.  if you break stuff, you are responsible for it.  at least that is what my dad taught me.

How do you and I always seem to get stuck in the conundrums   I agree the vacuum wasn't great.. However there were many factors included in the pulling of troops that had nothing to do with the actual readiness of the country to govern itself effectively. 

It could have just as easily gone the other way and became a functioning country without a ruthless dictator... given the chance.

No, it could not have gone the other way.
Religious factions would not allow it. They want to kill each other.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 19, 2015 16:46:39 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Aug 19, 2015 16:34:35 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

no.  but i think we were better off without the vacuum.  the question then becomes was there a way to avoid it?  i contend that there was.  but our strategy in Iraq was so flawed that we never considered the idea that the country would plunge into chaos if Saddam was removed.  that was OUR mistake.  if you break stuff, you are responsible for it.  at least that is what my dad taught me.

How do you and I always seem to get stuck in the conundrums   I agree the vacuum wasn't great.. However there were many factors included in the pulling of troops that had nothing to do with the actual readiness of the country to govern itself effectively. 

It could have just as easily gone the other way and became a functioning country without a ruthless dictator... given the chance.

the rules of engagement are generally: if you go into a country, you should be prepared to manage that.

nobody was asking us to get rid of Saddam.  if you asked your average Iraqi (this WAS actually asked at the time), they said "sure, we want to get rid of him, but we want to do it OURSELVES".  and if you think about it, we would feel the same way.  nobody likes people doing stuff for them.

there were a lot of ways of doing this.  we did it a very bad way, and we got ISIS for it.  that is how i see it.

[Value Buy]

Aug 19, 2015 17:19:02 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Aug 19, 2015 17:13:12 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

No, it could not have gone the other way.
Religious factions would not allow it. They want to kill each other.

Then under that premise...no harm no foul for the US

Even to this day, the premise is Iraq cannot survive as one entity.
The prevailing thought is three distinct entities.
Maybe they could do a United States of Iraq, but I am not sure that would work with them.

[billisonboard]

Aug 19, 2015 16:45:08 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

... it is how we used to do things before WW2, ...

FWIW
History of U.S. Interventions in Latin America

[Tennesseer]

Aug 19, 2015 17:21:58 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 19, 2015 16:46:39 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

How do you and I always seem to get stuck in the conundrums   I agree the vacuum wasn't great.. However there were many factors included in the pulling of troops that had nothing to do with the actual readiness of the country to govern itself effectively. 

It could have just as easily gone the other way and became a functioning country without a ruthless dictator... given the chance.

the rules of engagement are generally: if you go into a country, you should be prepared to manage that.

nobody was asking us to get rid of Saddam.  if you asked your average Iraqi (this WAS actually asked at the time), they said "sure, we want to get rid of him, but we want to do it OURSELVES".  and if you think about it, we would feel the same way.  nobody likes people doing stuff for them.

there were a lot of ways of doing this.  we did it a very bad way, and we got ISIS for it.  that is how i see it.

"He may be a despot, but he is our despot."

[djAdvocate]

Aug 19, 2015 17:39:08 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 19, 2015 16:45:08 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

... it is how we used to do things before WW2, ...

FWIW
History of U.S. Interventions in Latin America

thanks, bills.  i downloaded the PDF in the footnotes!