A&P Grocery chain declares bankruptcy

[Value Buy]

Again.
I am wondering if the Haitian has any thoughts on this. Does this affect his store where he works, via competition, or does A&P just keep going on as nothing has happened?
How many times have they declared insolvancy anyway?

[ArchietheDragon]

Jul 21, 2015 9:11:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Again.
I am wondering if the Haitian has any thoughts on this. Does this affect his store where he works, via competition, or does A&P just keep going on as nothing has happened?
How many times have they declared insolvancy anyway?

This is the second time in 5 years. 

[Value Buy]

Jul 21, 2015 9:14:49 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:11:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Again.
I am wondering if the Haitian has any thoughts on this. Does this affect his store where he works, via competition, or does A&P just keep going on as nothing has happened?
How many times have they declared insolvancy anyway?

This is the second time in 5 years. 

Will they be sticking it to the union members on pensions?
I wonder how far behind in payments to unions on pension payments.
Why do banks continue to re-fund these losing companies?

[ArchietheDragon]

Jul 21, 2015 9:17:50 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:14:49 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

This is the second time in 5 years. 

Will they be sticking it to the union members on pensions?
I wonder how far behind in payments to unions on pension payments.
Why do banks continue to re-fund these losing companies?

They are trying to find buyers, but no one wants to take on the union liabilities....  

[ArchietheDragon]

Jul 21, 2015 9:17:50 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:14:49 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

This is the second time in 5 years. 

Will they be sticking it to the union members on pensions?
I wonder how far behind in payments to unions on pension payments.
Why do banks continue to re-fund these losing companies?

Union pension filing from 2013....  in it it notes that the pension fund has been in "critical" status for 6 consecutive years. 


www.dol.gov/ebsa/pdf/c-notice112213030.pdf

[Value Buy]

Jul 21, 2015 9:24:20 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:17:50 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Will they be sticking it to the union members on pensions?
I wonder how far behind in payments to unions on pension payments.
Why do banks continue to re-fund these losing companies?

Union pension filing from 2013....  in it it notes that the pension fund has been in "critical" status for 6 consecutive years. 


www.dol.gov/ebsa/pdf/c-notice112213030.pdf

Archie, in a previous life, back during high school and college, I worked in grocery retail. I did manage tenure years with my military time included, so I qualified for a pension.

My Union pension was in critical condition since early 2000's and still is. Many grocery retail pension funds are in bad shape.

[ArchietheDragon]

Jul 21, 2015 9:28:23 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:24:20 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Union pension filing from 2013....  in it it notes that the pension fund has been in "critical" status for 6 consecutive years. 


www.dol.gov/ebsa/pdf/c-notice112213030.pdf

Archie, in a previous life, back during high school and college, I worked in grocery retail. I did manage tenure years with my military time included, so I qualified for a pension.

My Union pension was in critical condition since early 2000's and still is. Many grocery retail pension funds are in bad shape.

many pension funds across the spectrum are in bad shape. 

[Opti]

Jul 21, 2015 9:19:06 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:17:50 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Will they be sticking it to the union members on pensions?
I wonder how far behind in payments to unions on pension payments.
Why do banks continue to re-fund these losing companies?

They are trying to find buyers, but no one wants to take on the union liabilities....  

FWIW, they sold off a bunch of stores and or closed them last round. One of them is now a Fresh Market, one a Weis grocery store and sadly off the top of my head I can't remember what the closest one became. After it died though, the Walmart became a SuperCenter with real groceries, real selection.

Grocery is hard because it is all about margins. This is also one of several warning signs that the economy has not recovered and certain businesses are going to go down. (Should I rethink how I feel about Trump and premium customer base issues? Maybe ... but I'm doing laundry so I have two clean white uniform oxford shirts so ... magic 8 ball says ... probably not today. )

[Opti]

Jul 21, 2015 9:28:53 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:28:23 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Archie, in a previous life, back during high school and college, I worked in grocery retail. I did manage tenure years with my military time included, so I qualified for a pension.

My Union pension was in critical condition since early 2000's and still is. Many grocery retail pension funds are in bad shape.

many pension funds across the spectrum are in bad shape. 

And many of us with 401Ks and lesser jobs have had to drain or obliterate them in order to stay afloat. The truth is what YM preaches is not enough. Surviving, thriving, and not getting too angry when it all goes to hell, is a skill many people need.

Slightly OT, but I have been noticing a class of angry pre-Boomer men. Unfortunately they have likely been the first round of financial obliteration, but they felt too strong & screwed to say anything publicly. It might be why those Boomer articles are often clearly discussing people who are not Boomers. If you were born 1940-1946, you might be one of them.

[Value Buy]

Jul 21, 2015 9:34:44 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:28:53 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

many pension funds across the spectrum are in bad shape. 

And many of us with 401Ks and lesser jobs have had to drain or obliterate them in order to stay afloat. The truth is what YM preaches is not enough. Surviving, thriving, and not getting too angry when it all goes to hell, is a skill many people need.

Slightly OT, but I have been noticing a class of angry pre-Boomer men. Unfortunately they have likely been the first round of financial obliteration, but they felt too strong & screwed to say anything publicly. It might be why those Boomer articles are often clearly discussing people who are not Boomers. If you were born 1940-1946, you might be one of them.

If this was addressed to me, I am not a pre-boomer.

[Opti]

Jul 21, 2015 9:38:55 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:34:44 GMT -5 Opti said:

And many of us with 401Ks and lesser jobs have had to drain or obliterate them in order to stay afloat. The truth is what YM preaches is not enough. Surviving, thriving, and not getting too angry when it all goes to hell, is a skill many people need.

Slightly OT, but I have been noticing a class of angry pre-Boomer men. Unfortunately they have likely been the first round of financial obliteration, but they felt too strong & screwed to say anything publicly. It might be why those Boomer articles are often clearly discussing people who are not Boomers. If you were born 1940-1946, you might be one of them.

If this was addressed to me, I am not a pre-boomer.

VB, it was a statement of what I have been noticing. Has zero to do with you personally if that helps.

[TheHaitian]

Doesn't affects my company much since we do not compete with them directly!

The one I know we are looking at it is the Merger between Delhaize and Ahold because we compete with them in some markets.

They will need to close down some stores if it goes through and we are definitely interested with buying some

[marvholly]

Jul 21, 2015 9:19:06 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:17:50 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Will they be sticking it to the union members on pensions?
I wonder how far behind in payments to unions on pension payments.
Why do banks continue to re-fund these losing companies?

They are trying to find buyers, but no one wants to take on the union liabilities....  

This is what happened with Safeway in metro Chicago. The chain was bought and the buyers were 'sure' they could control the union. Did NOT happen. Union would not budge. Buyers tried to sell. No one wanted the union liability. They finally just closed down all the stores 21 months ago. I have seen a few employees from my regular store in other places. I know quite a few from many stores are still unemployed.

[Miss Tequila]

Jul 22, 2015 5:16:05 GMT -5 marvholly said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:19:06 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

They are trying to find buyers, but no one wants to take on the union liabilities....  

This is what happened with Safeway in metro Chicago. The chain was bought and the buyers were 'sure' they could control the union. Did NOT happen. Union would not budge. Buyers tried to sell. No one wanted the union liability. They finally just closed down all the stores 21 months ago. I have seen a few employees from my regular store in other places. I know quite a few from many stores are still unemployed.

This is probably a really dumb question, but don't the employees realize that it is better to give a little than be out of a job? I get it, at some point management agreed to certain things with the unions but obviously those benefits were no longer sustainable.

[TheHaitian]

Jul 22, 2015 7:25:59 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jul 22, 2015 5:16:05 GMT -5 marvholly said:

This is what happened with Safeway in metro Chicago. The chain was bought and the buyers were 'sure' they could control the union. Did NOT happen. Union would not budge. Buyers tried to sell. No one wanted the union liability. They finally just closed down all the stores 21 months ago. I have seen a few employees from my regular store in other places. I know quite a few from many stores are still unemployed.

This is probably a really dumb question, but don't the employees realize that it is better to give a little than be out of a job? I get it, at some point management agreed to certain things with the unions but obviously those benefits were no longer sustainable.

"Because damn it they earned it and deserve it, the company not being able to afford it is not their problem!"

I don't get it either but some people rather go down with pride than accept anything less than what they feel they deserve.

[billisonboard]

Jul 22, 2015 7:25:59 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

... This is probably a really dumb question, but don't the employees realize that it is better to give a little than be out of a job? I get it, at some point management agreed to certain things with the unions but obviously those benefits were no longer sustainable.

Things like this likely impact workers thinking on them "giving a little:

A&P had originally sought court authorization to pay $6.8 million to 146 of its non-union salaried employees, with $1.3 million going to three top executives, for a seven-month period, according to court documents. best-met.com/news/ap-bankruptcy-judge-denise-tier-1-bonus-pay/

(This is not about the current situation but note that the current CEO was going to be a benefactor.)

[Value Buy]

Jul 22, 2015 8:10:29 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Jul 22, 2015 7:25:59 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

This is probably a really dumb question, but don't the employees realize that it is better to give a little than be out of a job? I get it, at some point management agreed to certain things with the unions but obviously those benefits were no longer sustainable.

"Because damn it they earned it and deserve it, the company not being able to afford it is not their problem!"

I don't get it either but some people rather go down with pride than accept anything less than what they feel they deserve.

In fairness, Wal Mart and other non-union shops have hurt the unionized chains very hard.
The Unions have not helped the situation since many have accepted a two tier wage system where new hires will never make the same as old timers, and have to be on the job a year or more before being considered for health insurance. Not sure if it is the same for pension payments though.

If each union shop replaces 5 to ten full time position with 10 to 15 part timers, it does change the pension payments for them, thus devaluing the pension funds 

[Miss Tequila]

Jul 22, 2015 13:30:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Jul 22, 2015 8:10:29 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

"Because damn it they earned it and deserve it, the company not being able to afford it is not their problem!"

I don't get it either but some people rather go down with pride than accept anything less than what they feel they deserve.

In fairness, Wal Mart and other non-union shops have hurt the unionized chains very hard.
The Unions have not helped the situation since many have accepted a two tier wage system where new hires will never make the same as old timers, and have to be on the job a year or more before being considered for health insurance. Not sure if it is the same for pension payments though.

If each union shop replaces 5 to ten full time position with 10 to 15 part timers, it does change the pension payments for them, thus devaluing the pension funds 

I'm all about price.  I'm not going to shop at a store with higher prices just to support union benefits.  Having said that, I'm surprised at all of the union supporters that actually do shop at wal-mart. 

[973beachbum]

Jul 21, 2015 9:19:06 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:17:50 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Will they be sticking it to the union members on pensions?
I wonder how far behind in payments to unions on pension payments.
Why do banks continue to re-fund these losing companies?

They are trying to find buyers, but no one wants to take on the union liabilities....  

I don't know why you said this but it is already a done deal.   And this does effect me as those stores are all around me.  It is now the new game being played by locals.  Trying to decide which stores are going to close.

Close on the heels of the bankruptcy filing by SuperFresh’s parent company, the Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Co., or A&P, this week, Malvern-based ACME Markets has announced an agreement is in the works for the venerable Philadelphia-area chain to acquire 76 of A&P’s stores and rebrand them under the ACME banner.

www.mainlinemedianews.com/articles/2015/07/23/main_line_times/news/doc55afd2d992d3f896269120.txt

[ArchietheDragon]

Jul 23, 2015 20:38:07 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Jul 21, 2015 9:19:06 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

They are trying to find buyers, but no one wants to take on the union liabilities....  

I don't know why you said this but it is already a done deal.   And this does effect me as those stores are all around me.  It is now the new game being played by locals.  Trying to decide which stores are going to close.

Close on the heels of the bankruptcy filing by SuperFresh’s parent company, the Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Co., or A&P, this week, Malvern-based ACME Markets has announced an agreement is in the works for the venerable Philadelphia-area chain to acquire 76 of A&P’s stores and rebrand them under the ACME banner.

www.mainlinemedianews.com/articles/2015/07/23/main_line_times/news/doc55afd2d992d3f896269120.txt

I was basing it off of this article

www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/20/greatatlantic-bankruptcy-idUSL3N1003U520150720

In it they claim that
"A&P agreed to sell about 120 of its 296 stores for about $600 million to Acme Markets Inc, owner of Safeway and Albertsons grocery stores, Stop & Shop Supermarket Co LLC and Key Food Stores Co-operative Inc.

However, the proposed buyers were not willing to take on A&P's collective bargaining agreements or pension obligations, according to court documents. About 93 percent of A&P's 28,500 workers are unionized, the documents show.

The company will try to find buyers for about 150 other stores it hoped to sell as an ongoing business, according to the documents."

[973beachbum]

Jul 23, 2015 20:52:45 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jul 23, 2015 20:38:07 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

I don't know why you said this but it is already a done deal.   And this does effect me as those stores are all around me.  It is now the new game being played by locals.  Trying to decide which stores are going to close.


www.mainlinemedianews.com/articles/2015/07/23/main_line_times/news/doc55afd2d992d3f896269120.txt

I was basing it off of this article

www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/20/greatatlantic-bankruptcy-idUSL3N1003U520150720

In it they claim that
"A&P agreed to sell about 120 of its 296 stores for about $600 million to Acme Markets Inc, owner of Safeway and Albertsons grocery stores, Stop & Shop Supermarket Co LLC and Key Food Stores Co-operative Inc.

However, the proposed buyers were not willing to take on A&P's collective bargaining agreements or pension obligations, according to court documents. About 93 percent of A&P's 28,500 workers are unionized, the documents show.

The company will try to find buyers for about 150 other stores it hoped to sell as an ongoing business, according to the documents."

What they are saying is they want more money.   Don't we all.  But there are literally hundreds of news stories saying this is a done deal.  There have even been ones where Superfresh mgrs have commented on becoming an Acme.  While of course it would be nice for them for a White Knight to swoop in and rescue them it won't happen for the same reason you stated.  The BK judge though has the authority to makes those contracts disappear. 

[ArchietheDragon]

Jul 23, 2015 21:23:23 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Jul 23, 2015 20:52:45 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

I was basing it off of this article

www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/20/greatatlantic-bankruptcy-idUSL3N1003U520150720

In it they claim that
"A&P agreed to sell about 120 of its 296 stores for about $600 million to Acme Markets Inc, owner of Safeway and Albertsons grocery stores, Stop & Shop Supermarket Co LLC and Key Food Stores Co-operative Inc.

However, the proposed buyers were not willing to take on A&P's collective bargaining agreements or pension obligations, according to court documents. About 93 percent of A&P's 28,500 workers are unionized, the documents show.

The company will try to find buyers for about 150 other stores it hoped to sell as an ongoing business, according to the documents."

What they are saying is they want more money.   Don't we all.  But there are literally hundreds of news stories saying this is a done deal.  There have even been ones where Superfresh mgrs have commented on becoming an Acme.  While of course it would be nice for them for a White Knight to swoop in and rescue them it won't happen for the same reason you stated.  The BK judge though has the authority to makes those contracts disappear. 

Ok. Is the new buyer taking in the union contacts and pension obligations?

[973beachbum]

Jul 23, 2015 21:25:31 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jul 23, 2015 21:23:23 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

What they are saying is they want more money.   Don't we all.  But there are literally hundreds of news stories saying this is a done deal.  There have even been ones where Superfresh mgrs have commented on becoming an Acme.  While of course it would be nice for them for a White Knight to swoop in and rescue them it won't happen for the same reason you stated.  The BK judge though has the authority to makes those contracts disappear. 

Ok. Is the new buyer taking in the union contacts and pension obligations?

My read on the articles is they are going to buy the stores but not take on any union contracts or other obligations.  That part that you said I agree with 100%.  No one wants those obligations!

The BK court will be left with the choice of sell it without those obligations or nothing.  I doubt the court would take nothing to pay their creditors. 

Although I'm not a laywer and don't even play one on the internet.

PS there are probably 30 of those A&P and Superfreshes in the greater area.  So this isn't small news around here.  Those stores and their mgmt are all acting like it is already done.  I can't come up with a reason why, if it wasn't even close to done.

[ArchietheDragon]

Jul 23, 2015 21:34:13 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Jul 23, 2015 21:25:31 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Ok. Is the new buyer taking in the union contacts and pension obligations?

My read on the articles is they are going to buy the stores but not take on any union contracts or other obligations.  That part that you said I agree with 100%.  No one wants those obligations!

The BK court will be left with the choice of sell it without those obligations or nothing.  I doubt the court would take nothing to pay their creditors. 

Although I'm not a laywer and don't even play one on the internet.

PS there are probably 30 of those A&P and Superfreshes in the greater area.  So this isn't small news around here.  Those stores and their mgmt are all acting like it is already done.  I can't come up with a reason why, if it wasn't even close to done.

Exactly. No one wants the pensions liability

[Opti]

Jul 23, 2015 21:23:23 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Jul 23, 2015 20:52:45 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

I was basing it off of this article

www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/20/greatatlantic-bankruptcy-idUSL3N1003U520150720

In it they claim that
"A&P agreed to sell about 120 of its 296 stores for about $600 million to Acme Markets Inc, owner of Safeway and Albertsons grocery stores, Stop & Shop Supermarket Co LLC and Key Food Stores Co-operative Inc.

However, the proposed buyers were not willing to take on A&P's collective bargaining agreements or pension obligations, according to court documents. About 93 percent of A&P's 28,500 workers are unionized, the documents show.

The company will try to find buyers for about 150 other stores it hoped to sell as an ongoing business, according to the documents."

What they are saying is they want more money.   Don't we all.  But there are literally hundreds of news stories saying this is a done deal.  There have even been ones where Superfresh mgrs have commented on becoming an Acme.  While of course it would be nice for them for a White Knight to swoop in and rescue them it won't happen for the same reason you stated.  The BK judge though has the authority to makes those contracts disappear. 

Beach, how many A&Ps and Pathmark stores still exist around you? I can only think of two that have survived in my area, actually one, but according to the flyers, Piscataway is in my area and I think that's the closest Pathmark store survivor to me. There were only a handful available to close or sell anyway last round, but since most went in the prior round, I would be slightly surprised to see the survivors bite it, but who knows.

BK & judges don't work the way I would expect they would. The death of a three store health food store chain here was really odd. The flagship store, not sure if it ever did sell or what happened to it. I'll be watching what happens here as well, but hopefully most of the changes by me are done.

[Opti]

After I posted, I saw your post Beach. Thirty, hmmm. Stop & Shop is big or at least known around here, but Acme is an outlier. The one I knew of I think is dead, so that would leave the upper NJ shore as the next place I'd expect to find one.

No Superfreshes here to my knowledge, but at best there are two perhaps three survivors they could even trim around here. I could see them becoming Stop & Shops if it needed to happen. I know the current Stop & Shop in one town has been owned by three different grocery chains since I have been in the area(1987).

Grocery store consolidation, pharma company consolidation.  it's NJ.

[973beachbum]

Jul 23, 2015 21:39:05 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jul 23, 2015 21:23:23 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

What they are saying is they want more money.   Don't we all.  But there are literally hundreds of news stories saying this is a done deal.  There have even been ones where Superfresh mgrs have commented on becoming an Acme.  While of course it would be nice for them for a White Knight to swoop in and rescue them it won't happen for the same reason you stated.  The BK judge though has the authority to makes those contracts disappear. 

Beach, how many A&Ps and Pathmark stores still exist around you? I can only think of two that have survived in my area, actually one, but according to the flyers, Piscataway is in my area and I think that's the closest Pathmark store survivor to me. There were only a handful available to close or sell anyway last round, but since most went in the prior round, I would be slightly surprised to see the survivors bite it, but who knows.

BK & judges don't work the way I would expect they would. The death of a three store health food store chain here was really odd. The flagship store, not sure if it ever did sell or what happened to it. I'll be watching what happens here as well, but hopefully most of the changes by me are done.

I can't think of an A&P but we have a few Pathmarks and Superfresh stores that I pass on a regular basis and maybe 6 or 7 more that I don't pass regularly but could if I wanted to.  I just don't feel like going in that direction.  The Pathmark stores were actually my Fav for years.  But the two that I went to went out of business.  There are still two Superfresh stores here close buy.

here is a link to the list.  I will say that it is skewed more towards the east and south ends of the state.  Also Phila area which unlike you NNJ people I consider my greater metro area not NY.

www.acmemarkets.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Store-List-with-Addresses.pdf

ETA I should say this is the list of only the stores that would stay open.  there are a few stores I know of that would be closed no matter what.

[Opti]

Thanks for the list Beach. I think that means the Pathmark in Piscataway will change hands, which would make sense. As a under-funded person, I claim no Metro area.   Its as easy to not go to NYC as it is to not go to Philly.

I am in CNJ, that part in the top third of the state, that is not the top 1/6 to full 1/3, depending on one's personal preference for NJ region division.   At least you are on the shore. Most New Jerseyans agree where that is.