Green Eyed Lady
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Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 17, 2015 19:53:34 GMT -5
We would have screamed for some other flag to be banned.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 18, 2015 10:25:59 GMT -5
.. had a middle eastern name, so I'm thinking it was a terrorist act, ... So is it the name of the shooter that makes it a terrorist act? Timothy McVeigh was named as a terrorist, so this has nothing to do about name, but act.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 18, 2015 10:29:50 GMT -5
why does this need to be labeled terrorism and not just murder? For the same reason that the OK City bombing was labeled a terrorist act.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jul 18, 2015 10:36:33 GMT -5
If the shooter/killer is connected to a group or faction that was named as a terrorist organization or he did this with an agenda that aligns with a terroristic group then yes, it was a terrorist act. So far, nothing has been proven, he has/had no real connection with anybody/anything that would put him in a terrorist class. Based on what and how much we know, he is just another individual that snapped psychologically and went on a shooting spree. Just another undetected case of psycological disorder that went undetected or untreated.
At least Dylan Roof aligned himself with a group and made some sort of statement but this one has nothing so far.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jul 18, 2015 10:52:21 GMT -5
Timothy McVeigh retaliated to Waco Texas and he stated that. What FBI did in Waco was absolutely wrong but what he did was even worse.
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Artemis Windsong
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The love in me salutes the love in you. M. Williamson
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Post by Artemis Windsong on Jul 18, 2015 10:57:43 GMT -5
Not a military facility, two military recruitment centers, did a drive by shooting at one and walked into the other, four dead marines, apparently. And the guy lived around the area, but had a middle eastern name, so I'm thinking it was a terrorist act, although I don't think there has been an official statement. Very near to me. I consider a military recruitment center a military facility.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Jul 18, 2015 11:19:13 GMT -5
They were killed at a Naval Operational Support Center which also had a recruitment office, not at the Recruitment office at the mall which he shot up first. The Navy Petty Officer has died. RIP my shipmate.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Jul 18, 2015 11:25:01 GMT -5
why does this need to be labeled terrorism and not just murder? It was explained that calling it terrorism allows them to conduct a more detailed investigation with the help of other departments including the help of Foreign countries law enforcement to figure out what he did while in their country.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Jul 18, 2015 14:05:34 GMT -5
So according to you, white twenty some years old people that are mentally u balanced and have a grudge against none whites have declared war against all non whites. I could call that global racial terrorism! We cannot just define/name things so they can fit our mood. What would have been if the shooter would've been a born and raised proud white American? We a re not labeling people, at least I'm not. But there is a sickness out there that says if you are American, you are the devil. I don't feel like a devil...do you?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 17:25:39 GMT -5
why does this need to be labeled terrorism and not just murder? For the same reason that the OK City bombing was labeled a terrorist act. could you state that reason for me please.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 17:31:12 GMT -5
Timothy McVeigh retaliated to Waco Texas and he stated that. What FBI did in Waco was absolutely wrong but what he did was even worse. Why was what McVeigh did more wrong? How do you quantify the wrongness of killing people because you want to? McVeigh showed that some people are willing to fight back and are willing to die in that fight. The FBI killer at Ruby Ridge got an endorsement deal I think. There was a huge difference in integrity. Not to defend the killing of innocents in OKC, but the FBI and ATF were far worse. They were playing a game of cowboys and indians with real people and disregard for human life.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 18, 2015 17:50:30 GMT -5
Hickle....there is a book called Terrorism in the Mind of God by Mark Juergensmeyer that explains terrorism. The OK City bombing is also discussed, and it explains why terrorism is considered terrorism.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 17:58:53 GMT -5
Hickle....there is a book called Terrorism in the Mind of God by Mark Juergensmeyer that explains terrorism. The OK City bombing is also discussed, and it explains why terrorism is considered terrorism. can you give a brief explanation or even an explanation on why there is a need to differentiate? Just going by the word, I would think terrorism needs to terrorize. So something as coordinated as the WTC collapse would terrorize people because of what might be coming next. Some guy killing 4 people on his own and dying in the act while quite terribe does not elicit the fear of more to come. Is that part of the definition or do you not want to say?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 18, 2015 18:19:37 GMT -5
Not really. Terrorism is a mindset, and the book explains it well. It is not easily explained in a sound bite, but if you are interested in understanding the difference, this book will help you.
I took a bioterrorism class as part of my PhD curriculum, and this book was required reading. It also 'helped' that the US had just dealt with 9/11 and was dealing with the anthrax mailings, so it helped put things in perspective.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 18:23:11 GMT -5
Not really. Terrorism is a mindset, and the book explains it well. It is not easily explained in a sound bite, but if you are interested in understanding the difference, this book will help you. I took a bioterrorism class as part of my PhD curriculum, and this book was required reading. It also 'helped' that the US had just dealt with 9/11 and was dealing with the anthrax mailings, so it helped put things in perspective. Well if i have to put effort into understanding, I think I will pass .
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jul 19, 2015 15:30:33 GMT -5
Not really. Terrorism is a mindset, and the book explains it well. It is not easily explained in a sound bite, but if you are interested in understanding the difference, this book will help you. I took a bioterrorism class as part of my PhD curriculum, and this book was required reading. It also 'helped' that the US had just dealt with 9/11 and was dealing with the anthrax mailings, so it helped put things in perspective. Well if i have to put effort into understanding, I think I will pass . You having a lazy day? There re is no good reason for terminating a life. Those that got caught in the cross fire in Waco and died while not a lesser crime, Erie what is considered collateral damage and we as a society assume that things of this nature will happen. So, by societal norms, that was an acceptable loss of life. Justified? Never! However most of the victims were people that perpetrated a crime against others or US Government. Timothy McVeigh's victims on the other hand, were absolutely at no fault of any kind, not even related to Waco or connected in any way. And from what I recall, some daycare and its occupants were involved. You hold a grudge against the government, fine! I'll even help you if I see merit in your claim but as soon as you involve innocent children, no mater who's children, we are done, you are a despicable individual and automatically YOU become my target. "Never hold the sons guilty of the sins of their fathers!"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 15:54:18 GMT -5
Well if i have to put effort into understanding, I think I will pass . You having a lazy day? There re is no good reason for terminating a life. Those that got caught in the cross fire in Waco and died while not a lesser crime, Erie what is considered collateral damage and we as a society assume that things of this nature will happen. So, by societal norms, that was an acceptable loss of life. Justified? Never! However most of the victims were people that perpetrated a crime against others or US Government. Timothy McVeigh's victims on the other hand, were absolutely at no fault of any kind, not even related to Waco or connected in any way. And from what I recall, some daycare and its occupants were involved. You hold a grudge against the government, fine! I'll even help you if I see merit in your claim but as soon as you involve innocent children, no mater who's children, we are done, you are a despicable individual and automatically YOU become my target. "Never hold the sons guilty of the sins of their fathers!" The government killed children at Waco. They set the buillding the children were in on fire and burnt them to death.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Jul 19, 2015 22:17:41 GMT -5
Why should a military recruitment center be armed? Of course some 2nd amendment show offs carry semi-automatic weapons into fast food places. Don't worry, your NRA owns too many politicians to take your macho toys away. Why would you say that, Ken? Is that an attempt to paint all gun owners as terrorists? Not at all. Just pointing out that some 2nd amendment supporters go overboard to show they can carry. It is no secret that that the NRA is a huge lobbyist and has threatened politicians who don't support there agenda.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 19, 2015 22:43:22 GMT -5
You having a lazy day? There re is no good reason for terminating a life. Those that got caught in the cross fire in Waco and died while not a lesser crime, Erie what is considered collateral damage and we as a society assume that things of this nature will happen. So, by societal norms, that was an acceptable loss of life. Justified? Never! However most of the victims were people that perpetrated a crime against others or US Government. Timothy McVeigh's victims on the other hand, were absolutely at no fault of any kind, not even related to Waco or connected in any way. And from what I recall, some daycare and its occupants were involved. You hold a grudge against the government, fine! I'll even help you if I see merit in your claim but as soon as you involve innocent children, no mater who's children, we are done, you are a despicable individual and automatically YOU become my target. "Never hold the sons guilty of the sins of their fathers!" The government killed children at Waco. They set the buillding the children were in on fire and burnt them to death. When Waco was going on I had a 10' satellite dish, There was always raw news feed that you could pick up. One of the live news feeds showed a tank go up, to building, shove it turret into the side of what appeared to be the attic, I think it was injecting the tear gas into the building. that tear gas was reported to be flammable, when the tank backed away from the building it tore off the side. That is when you could see the flames coming out of the side of that building. They burnt to death all the men, women and children. That news feed was never see again. There were also ,reports that the FBI was gunning down people trying to escape from the flames. Yes they absolutely did burn down that building, kill all those people.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 19, 2015 22:50:35 GMT -5
Another note I believe the NRA call for an investigating into weapons at Waco, It was shut down by of all people Charles Shumer.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 20, 2015 7:10:22 GMT -5
So apparently Westboro Baptist Church plans to protest at the funerals for the servicemen that got killed in this shooting. Apparently there is a counter protest being organized, and that should be interesting. If they are lucky, the WBB folks will be taken into police custody early on, before tempers really rise against them. If they are unlucky, the police will pointedly look away and let the redneck element handle the whole situation, which will not be good for the WBB people.
Which will cause me to be very conflicted - on the one hand, I believe very strongly in the right to free speech, religious freedom and peaceful protest. On the other hand, if any group better deserved getting their asses kicked, I can't think of it.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 20, 2015 9:21:14 GMT -5
Well if i have to put effort into understanding, I think I will pass . You having a lazy day? There re is no good reason for terminating a life. Those that got caught in the cross fire in Waco and died while not a lesser crime, Erie what is considered collateral damage and we as a society assume that things of this nature will happen. So, by societal norms, that was an acceptable loss of life. Justified? Never! However most of the victims were people that perpetrated a crime against others or US Government. Timothy McVeigh's victims on the other hand, were absolutely at no fault of any kind, not even related to Waco or connected in any way. And from what I recall, some daycare and its occupants were involved. You hold a grudge against the government, fine! I'll even help you if I see merit in your claim but as soon as you involve innocent children, no mater who's children, we are done, you are a despicable individual and automatically YOU become my target. "Never hold the sons guilty of the sins of their fathers!" What were the crimes against the government at Waco, that were so bad that the ATF decided to make an example out of them? Koresh went into town every Thursday to buy food and supplies, They could have arrested him then. www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/treasury.html The illegal weapons, found . I don't believe it, This was where the NRA was pushing for an investigation into this when Charles Shumer bought it to a halt. I absolutely believe the statement by government was lie. Let me bring up Ruby Ridge at this point, Just what were the high and mighty crime that Randy Weaver committed to start the battle of Ruby ridge? Let me tell you about your brave government agent, In a tree, 200 yards away, full camouflage, while trying to shoot weaver in the back. has a round go through the door blowing the lower half of weaver face off while holding a 9 month old baby! Yes this was all OK because the agent feared for his life, In a tree, 200 yards away, full camo.
Let's not forget the the FBI agent that was destroying all the evidence attached to this crime. Just what was his severe punishment, for destroying evidence?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 20, 2015 9:22:50 GMT -5
has a round go through the door blowing the lower half of weaver face off while holding a 9 month old baby!
Make that Weavers wife.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jul 20, 2015 16:05:42 GMT -5
The Waco Texas business was quite fuzzy. Do I like the way things ended? Definetly not! Especialy since there was proof that there are children and women inside that compound before the government decided to mount a full blown assault- more like they had full knowledge of the fact that they will just kill anybody in there. And all started with the fact that one of those people didn't recognize the authority of US government. The Gov. Than proceeded to claim that he and his acolytes were holding everybody hostage against their will therefore they needed to "protect the innocent". To my personal opinion, in Waco, somebody in U.S. Government decided to play God and took so many lives with absolutely no credible justification.
The point about McVeigh was that he resorted to "in kind" retaliation to what the government did. That was what qualified his actions as terroristic. Could the governments actions in Waco be considered terroristic! Definetly but when perpetrated by the government there are "explanations" as to why it needed done.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jul 23, 2015 8:05:07 GMT -5
Not at all. Just pointing out that some 2nd amendment supporters go overboard to show they can carry. It is no secret that that the NRA is a huge lobbyist and has threatened politicians who don't support there agenda. Yeah, they do. I've met many people who seemed more into their guns than anything else, and it's a little bit weird. Hi this is my wife, but let me show you my guns...this one has the triple plated barrel...etc. The dudes that are more interested in guns in other words. And it baffles my mind too...we don't have a lot of guns but I would really like to have an old col revolver, just because that was such a big part of our history, even if I couldn't fire it.
The big thing about guns for me, is that is our defense against a dictatorship. And of course everybody scoffs at that...look around the world! Nobody thought it could happen in rome, or Maybe Germany in 1932, or Russia...hmmm....look well that played out! I'm not saying our current leader is a dictator, I'm saying that's what dictators do. And they also gain control of the press...so stop bashing Fox news!
"so stop bashing Fox news!"...I've tried to Ratch... really have , but then they go on to do stupid all over again and again ..Ok , will try again but I know just as soon as I do..yet again and again...
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jul 23, 2015 8:06:39 GMT -5
The Waco Texas business was quite fuzzy. Do I like the way things ended? Definetly not! Especialy since there was proof that there are children and women inside that compound before the government decided to mount a full blown assault- more like they had full knowledge of the fact that they will just kill anybody in there. And all started with the fact that one of those people didn't recognize the authority of US government. The Gov. Than proceeded to claim that he and his acolytes were holding everybody hostage against their will therefore they needed to "protect the innocent". To my personal opinion, in Waco, somebody in U.S. Government decided to play God and took so many lives with absolutely no credible justification. The point about McVeigh was that he resorted to "in kind" retaliation to what the government did. That was what qualified his actions as terroristic. Could the governments actions in Waco be considered terroristic! Definetly but when perpetrated by the government there are "explanations" as to why it needed done. Didn't the head of that department..a woman I believe..shortly after find some excuse to resign..??
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jul 23, 2015 8:08:56 GMT -5
The Waco Texas business was quite fuzzy. Do I like the way things ended? Definetly not! Especialy since there was proof that there are children and women inside that compound before the government decided to mount a full blown assault- more like they had full knowledge of the fact that they will just kill anybody in there. And all started with the fact that one of those people didn't recognize the authority of US government. The Gov. Than proceeded to claim that he and his acolytes were holding everybody hostage against their will therefore they needed to "protect the innocent". To my personal opinion, in Waco, somebody in U.S. Government decided to play God and took so many lives with absolutely no credible justification. The point about McVeigh was that he resorted to "in kind" retaliation to what the government did. That was what qualified his actions as terroristic. Could the governments actions in Waco be considered terroristic! Definetly but when perpetrated by the government there are "explanations" as to why it needed done. I believe some agents were killed by rifle fire from those inside..that was when it got real ugly on the outside...shouldn't but it's to be expected....and no quarter given..also shouldn't happen but....
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 23, 2015 9:02:17 GMT -5
One thing I will say about the Waco Siege-the parents of the children inside the complex had ample opportunity during the 50 days of the Waco incident to send their children out of the complex and to safety. The parents of 23 children were wise enough to get their children out of harm's way and let the authorities remove them to safety.
Some will say the parents of the children who perished were afraid to release their children to the authorities. And I can appreciate that. But if the parents of the children who died at Waco were alive today, I would ask them, 'How did that work out for you?', knowing that events at Waco were very unpredictable and very dangerous for everyone involved.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jul 23, 2015 13:40:09 GMT -5
This is The United States! If you have a grievance or a disagreement with the way the government handles certain things, there is a lawful way that can be followed. It might take longer than we want but it in most cases get results. Now if you are a nutcase and decide that you are some Mesiah or some great leader and decide to deny the legality and legitimacy of our government, you have two viable choices: change your ways and get with the program or move out of the country and establish your own sovereign entity elsewhere. Declaring your person and your acolytes sovereign citizens and establish a sovereign territory within our borders is not an option!
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 23, 2015 13:52:54 GMT -5
This is The United States! If you have a grievance or a disagreement with the way the government handles certain things, there is a lawful way that can be followed. It might take longer than we want but it in most cases get results. Now if you are a nutcase and decide that you are some Mesiah or some great leader and decide to deny the legality and legitimacy of our government, you have two viable choices: change your ways and get with the program or move out of the country and establish your own sovereign entity elsewhere. Declaring your person and your acolytes sovereign citizens and establish a sovereign territory within our borders is not an option! Jim Jones and Jonestown, Guyana. I will spare you the macabre pictures.
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