Tsipris and the Greeks - Bipolar or Stupid?

[tskeeter]

So Tsipris, the Greek Prime Minister sends the IMF a conciliatory letter regardling the conditions associated with additional IMF loans/gaurantees and asks for more money.  Then, with 24 hours he uses the Greek media to rant about how the IMF is "blackmailing" Greece and calling for Greeks to vote to refuse to make the now past due payment on loans and to split from the EU.

So, there was some discussion on a radio financial program this morning that Greece has been in default, or nearly in default, on international loans to the Greek government for 95% of the last 150 years.  Basically, Greece only exists as a debtor nation, and has for a long time.  It's major industry is tourism, which is obviously very cyclical.  Yet, for a century and a half, Greece has apparently done very little to build a more stable economy.  The apparent solution has been to borrow more and more money and to reduce the retirement age to the lowest in the world in order to pass the government jobs that make up much of the economy to the younger generation.

So, a good portion of the Greek population is up in arms that the lenders that Greece has borrowed from are cutting off the gravey train unless Greece makes some major, and very painful, changes.  Don't these folks have a clue that they've been living on other people's money?  Where do they think the money is going to come from if they refuse to dance to the piper that has been paying their bills?  Don't they have a clue what is will probably happen if they don't keep the promises their government made?

The downfall is already starting.  A report last night told the story of a small Greek clothing manufacturer.  They had been notified by their bank that their lines of credit had been closed.  Unless the owners of this company have very deep pockets, the loss of their lines of credit means that the clothing manufacturer will close.  And their employees will lose their jobs.  And any pay checks they might have made.  Can you imagine the consequences if this happened on a large scale in Greece?  Massive unemloyment.  Even worse than it currently is.  The Greek version of oru Great Depression.  And a government that has screwed things up so badly that nobody will loan them more money because they obviously have no intention of building a sustainable economy?  In effect, behaving like the homeless person panhandling on the street.  Living off the largess of a world that is increasingly unwilling to provide the financial support to allow the choices that the country has been making to continue?
 
Are the Greeks so clueless that they don't understand the golden rule?  And recognize that they've got no gold.  So they're going to have to play by the rules of those who are providing the gold?


BTW, the idea of the IMF coming into Greece and evicting the government from all of the public buildings has a certain amount of ironic appeal.  A bit like the guy who forclosed on a branch of the Wells Fargo bank when Wells didn't make a payment to him as ordered by the courts.  Maybe the IMF chaining the doors would help Greek citizens understand that they're not driving the bus.  (I know this would never happen, for a wide variety of reasons including the technical structure of the financial arangements and the politics involved, but it would be knid of funny.)    

[mroped]

Oh, yes they are that clueless! And arrogant! And rude! And a few other bad qualities

[Ombud]

And entitled. Whereas can an ENTIRE FEMALE POPULATION retire on a full pension at 50??

[Wisconsin Beth]

And some idiot started a gofundme thing to help out.  I think it's goal is 1.7M which is pointless because they own Billions. 

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

I hadn't read anywhere that Tsipris had been diagnosed with a mental illness like being bipolar. I hope that you're not trying to be funny when you make light of other people's possible mental illness.

[obelisk]

A clown by definition.
Not to insult real clowns.

[tskeeter]

Jul 1, 2015 16:11:49 GMT -5 ❤ mollymouser ❤ said:

I hadn't read anywhere that Tsipris had been diagnosed with a mental illness like being bipolar. I hope that you're not trying to be funny when you make light of other people's possible mental illness.

Not trying to be funny.  But, suffering from bipolar disorder could help to explain Tsirpis irratic behavior.

[Robert not Bobby]

Jul 1, 2015 15:56:15 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

So Tsipris, the Greek Prime Minister sends the IMF a conciliatory letter regardling the conditions associated with additional IMF loans/gaurantees and asks for more money.  Then, with 24 hours he uses the Greek media to rant about how the IMF is "blackmailing" Greece and calling for Greeks to vote to refuse to make the now past due payment on loans and to split from the EU.

So, there was some discussion on a radio financial program this morning that Greece has been in default, or nearly in default, on international loans to the Greek government for 95% of the last 150 years.  Basically, Greece only exists as a debtor nation, and has for a long time.  It's major industry is tourism, which is obviously very cyclical.  Yet, for a century and a half, Greece has apparently done very little to build a more stable economy.  The apparent solution has been to borrow more and more money and to reduce the retirement age to the lowest in the world in order to pass the government jobs that make up much of the economy to the younger generation.

So, a good portion of the Greek population is up in arms that the lenders that Greece has borrowed from are cutting off the gravey train unless Greece makes some major, and very painful, changes.  Don't these folks have a clue that they've been living on other people's money?  Where do they think the money is going to come from if they refuse to dance to the piper that has been paying their bills?  Don't they have a clue what is will probably happen if they don't keep the promises their government made?

The downfall is already starting.  A report last night told the story of a small Greek clothing manufacturer.  They had been notified by their bank that their lines of credit had been closed.  Unless the owners of this company have very deep pockets, the loss of their lines of credit means that the clothing manufacturer will close.  And their employees will lose their jobs.  And any pay checks they might have made.  Can you imagine the consequences if this happened on a large scale in Greece?  Massive unemloyment.  Even worse than it currently is.  The Greek version of oru Great Depression.  And a government that has screwed things up so badly that nobody will loan them more money because they obviously have no intention of building a sustainable economy?  In effect, behaving like the homeless person panhandling on the street.  Living off the largess of a world that is increasingly unwilling to provide the financial support to allow the choices that the country has been making to continue?
 
Are the Greeks so clueless that they don't understand the golden rule?  And recognize that they've got no gold.  So they're going to have to play by the rules of those who are providing the gold?


BTW, the idea of the IMF coming into Greece and evicting the government from all of the public buildings has a certain amount of ironic appeal.  A bit like the guy who forclosed on a branch of the Wells Fargo bank when Wells didn't make a payment to him as ordered by the courts.  Maybe the IMF chaining the doors would help Greek citizens understand that they're not driving the bus.  (I know this would never happen, for a wide variety of reasons including the technical structure of the financial arangements and the politics involved, but it would be knid of funny.)    

Greece is the home of modern civilization....but these days, they can't keep records straight. The Greek economy is tiny...China creates Greece evey six weeks.So no worries.

[phil5185]

and to reduce the retirement age to the lowest in the world in order to pass the government jobs that make up much of the economy to the younger generation.

Many of the Greeks pension-out at age 50. And that's only the half of it, as long as kids keep up their grades they can draw college pay until age 30. So - many start work at 30 and pension-out at 50, ie a 20 year career out of an 82 yr life span.  These guys gave us the Pythagorean Theorem, Archimedes Principal, the basis for medical science, etc. And now they can't even handle the mathematics that 20 yrs of work won't support you for 82 years??   (did I mention the 5-week vacations scatterfed thru the 20-yr working life?)

The Greek economy is tiny..

Almost no manufacturing, cars, appliances must be imported. Very little agriculture, someone else grows their food & livestock. And mining, their metals are mined elsewhere.  They have shipping - but it must not be enough to build a sustainable GDP.

[busymom]

Stupid for $200, Alex...

Considering Greece is the "father" of a lot of our educational system, it appears a lot of the population has been skipping class. 

[mroped]

As I mentioned on a different tread, they do raise goats, sheep=cheese(Feta) and have olive orchards that bring some income.
Shipping is all but dead.
Shipbuilding went to Asia and ships are registering in Cyprus-Nicosia, Liberia or Panama due to much lower registering fees and more lenient inspections for "sea worthy".

Their history helped them survive for the last almost 200 years after Etteria- a rebellion lead by Alexander Ipsilanty. That was their turning point. From there everything went downhill
The fact that they are descendants from the Athenians and Spartans made them think they are better then anybody, hence the arrogance typical to Greeks.

Now, mind you, their national debt is nothing for a country like us. We probably spend that much every year on corn subsidies(  ) but their problem is that they have nothing that could replenish their coffers.
Calcarous hillsides peppered with goats chasing patches of grass and twisted in the wind olive trees. That's it!

from what I read in some papers from back home, their Parlament does not become legal so doesn't have any authority until is blessed by the Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church.
The Church also holds some seats with voting rights in the Parlament. Very weird set up!

[Deleted]

why do people say the Greeks are stupid bu do not say the same thing about the lenders?

[beergut]

 You neglected to mention the Greek refusal to pay back their loans is based in part on anger at Germany over WWII. Germany invaded Greece, so these people believe they owe nothing to Germany almost 75 years later. It doesn't matter that Germany is trying to help them, they won't let go of that grudge. 


The biggest problem is that no one in Greece pays taxes. With no money going into the government, and tons of outflow because of pensions and government benefits, you have a government that is always in debt because their liabilities vastly exceeds their income. 

[marvholly]

There are TONS of problems in Greece and no one is willing to face facts and commit to the hard stuff that needs to be done. The PM is talking out o both sides of his mouth (typical pol) telling the IMF & otther lenders what they want/need to hear and telling the poeple the 'dream' they want to hear.

I suspect we might be looking at the breakup of the EU. Iceland did what they needed. Spain & Italy?  Not sure either is out of the woods yet.  Britain is considering a public referendum on whether to continue belonging. That pretty much leaves Germany & France and a BIG group of small national economy countries that just joined in the past 10 years or so.

[zibazinski]

We need to look at them. All countries need to look at them. This can happen to us and to others.

[skubikky]

Jul 1, 2015 15:56:15 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

So, there was some discussion on a radio financial program this morning that Greece has been in default, or nearly in default, on international loans to the Greek government for 95% of the last 150 years.  Basically, Greece only exists as a debtor nation, and has for a long time.  It's major industry is tourism, which is obviously very cyclical.  Yet, for a century and a half, Greece has apparently done very little to build a more stable economy.  The apparent solution has been to borrow more and more money and to reduce the retirement age to the lowest in the world in order to pass the government jobs that make up much of the economy to the younger generation.
  

Tourism accounts for about 18% of GDP.  Employing about 19% of the workforce which is overlapped with other industries so difficult to gauge.

Unemployment is over 25% now which is quite high.

[skubikky]

Jul 1, 2015 16:02:57 GMT -5 mroped said:

Oh, yes they are that clueless! And arrogant! And rude! And a few other bad qualities

   My family in Thessaloniki are not rude.  They're just lovely, ordinary, kind people who have always made their cousins from the states feel welcome.  

How much control or say, do you think that they have in their own government?  

Back off on the nasty comments.

[skubikky]

Jul 1, 2015 21:26:06 GMT -5 beergut said:

The biggest problem is that no one in Greece pays taxes. With no money going into the government, and tons of outflow because of pensions and government benefits, you have a government that is always in debt because their liabilities vastly exceeds their income. 

It's more like about 40% pay taxes.  Low, but not zero.

[NoNamePerson]

Jul 1, 2015 16:02:57 GMT -5 mroped said:

Oh, yes they are that clueless! And arrogant! And rude! And a few other bad qualities

If that's the reason for their problems then the usa is in a world of shit. We're just to fucking arrogant to see it.

[Deleted]

"How can something like this happen without prior warning?” asked Angeliki Psarianou, a 67-year-old retired public servant, who stood in the drizzle after arriving too late at one empty ATM in the Greek capital.

www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/06/the-decadence-of-the-liberal-mind-in-one-sentence.php

I'll go with stupid

[mroped]

I wasn't talking about the guys/people that in fact work- farmers and shop keepers.
I worked with quite a few of them over the years. As soon as you go "above" average Joe is like they think they are better.
I had a skipper once that he thought that the world should bow before him.
People that were running shipping agencies that believed that they were better than all.

And then there was the chief steward, a 75 yrs old man that was like a father to all of us, so kind and good hearted.

Like in any nation, there are good and bad.
I apologize for not being more specific as to point that I was referring to the "ruling class".

But that doesn't mean that there are no average Joes that have the same arrogant attitude or well positioned people that are well intended.

All my family is still back in Romania and if anyone is saying that Romanian are thieves I won't take offense because generally speaking they are. However there are exceptions.

So skubikki, if you are offended by my remarks, there is nothing I can do!
One tree does not a forest make!

[zibazinski]

Jul 2, 2015 8:20:54 GMT -5 @xmascookie said:

"How can something like this happen without prior warning?” asked Angeliki Psarianou, a 67-year-old retired public servant, who stood in the drizzle after arriving too late at one empty ATM in the Greek capital.

www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/06/the-decadence-of-the-liberal-mind-in-one-sentence.php

I'll go with stupid

Hope this doesn't happen in the U.S.

[zibazinski]

But their food, music, and wine are awesome!

[tskeeter]

Jul 1, 2015 19:12:56 GMT -5 @hickle said:

why do people say the Greeks are stupid bu do not say the same thing about the lenders?

Because some Greeks do not seem to realize that the lenders are in control of their destiny.  If the lenders cut off the inflows of money, life in Greece is going to get really, really bad.  If Greeks basically vote to not comply with lender austerity requirements, the money tap is going to dry up.  It will be a microcosm of the 2008/2009 economic collapse magnified many, many times.  In the face of a high level of economic and political uncertainty and instability, one of the Greek cash cows, tourism, is likely to drop considerably.  (Many people would not want to tour a country with no functional police force, and where public services, such as water supplies and electricity, might suddenly be shut off or extremely restricted.)

As for the lenders.  They understand very well that they pretty much have Greece backed into a corner.  Greeks have only to decide which is the lesser of the two evils they face.  Even more stingent auserity measures that can put Greece back on stable footing.  Or blowing off the IMF and hoping for a miricle that will allow the country to continue it's spenthrift ways (which is likely to create massive economic distress in Greece).

Basically, it's the same as when you don't repay loans you have taken out.  You can stiff the lender.  But, if you do, you very quickly find that nobody else will lend you any money.  And, if you can get someone to lend you money, you really pay through the nose for it.  Greece already has a reputation as a problem borrower, so if they can't make nice with the IMF, they're pretty much out of luck when it comes to getting money any where else.   

[tskeeter]

Jul 1, 2015 21:26:06 GMT -5 beergut said:

 You neglected to mention the Greek refusal to pay back their loans is based in part on anger at Germany over WWII. Germany invaded Greece, so these people believe they owe nothing to Germany almost 75 years later. It doesn't matter that Germany is trying to help them, they won't let go of that grudge. 


The biggest problem is that no one in Greece pays taxes. With no money going into the government, and tons of outflow because of pensions and government benefits, you have a government that is always in debt because their liabilities vastly exceeds their income. 

Another problem is bloated government.  As I understand it, Greece has the highest percentage of the population employed in government of almost any country in the world.  IIRC, the percentage I saw was 40%.  Not contributing to GDP.  While consuming GDP produced by others.

[cael]

Since I was literally just there until 3 days ago, here's my two cents. I haven't been following this whole mess much up until we went over there. We had family members try to explain it to us, but without them having great English or us having any Greek we probably lost a lot in translation.

DH's aunt on Crete and her husband are both retired, they're 60-ish. Aunt was a physical therapist, and uncle was a medical engineer plus he makes money making/selling olive oil and wine (like lots of people there do). Aunt gave us the impression she was very concerned about money and the crisis, but they seem better off compared to many others. If we heard/understood their aunt correctly, until 5 or 6 years ago they didn't pay any property tax - now there are property taxes. Luckily they're able to pay it, but imagine people who don't have that disposable income suddenly having to pay that. She also, we think, said her pension had been cut in the last few years. Now, they can probably survive but imagine someone on a lower income having taxes to pay suddenly and/or having their pensions cut. That makes for hard times. She said young people want to work, but there isn't enough work for them - her son, who they sent to college for an economics degree, works at a hotel as a porter, and that's a 'good' job for a younger guy in his position with a college education.

This obviously isn't everyone's take on it, but that's their situation. The other aunt and uncle live modestly in their village, but in a rather updated home - they ran a restaurant and souvenir shop at a tourist beach for years, and are probably in modest financial health. Their son is a ship captain and makes double or more what I make so he would take care of them if they needed it.

Greeks aren't all entitled, rude and arrogant - every single person we encountered was gracious, kind, and the family were the best hosts we could ask for. it's a shame that's what the international community thinks of as a generalization for Greeks. None of the family members thought leaving the EU would be a good idea and they were really at a loss on what should be done. We saw lines of people outside banks on Sunday as we drove towards Athens, one cousin had said they were going to be closing banks and people were starting to panic. Really sad overall.

That's about all I've got.

[tskeeter]

Jul 2, 2015 11:19:19 GMT -5 cael said:

Since I was literally just there until 3 days ago, here's my two cents. I haven't been following this whole mess much up until we went over there. We had family members try to explain it to us, but without them having great English or us having any Greek we probably lost a lot in translation.

DH's aunt on Crete and her husband are both retired, they're 60-ish. Aunt was a physical therapist, and uncle was a medical engineer plus he makes money making/selling olive oil and wine (like lots of people there do). Aunt gave us the impression she was very concerned about money and the crisis, but they seem better off compared to many others. If we heard/understood their aunt correctly, until 5 or 6 years ago they didn't pay any property tax - now there are property taxes. Luckily they're able to pay it, but imagine people who don't have that disposable income suddenly having to pay that. She also, we think, said her pension had been cut in the last few years. Now, they can probably survive but imagine someone on a lower income having taxes to pay suddenly and/or having their pensions cut. That makes for hard times. She said young people want to work, but there isn't enough work for them - her son, who they sent to college for an economics degree, works at a hotel as a porter, and that's a 'good' job for a younger guy in his position with a college education.

This obviously isn't everyone's take on it, but that's their situation. The other aunt and uncle live modestly in their village, but in a rather updated home - they ran a restaurant and souvenir shop at a tourist beach for years, and are probably in modest financial health. Their son is a ship captain and makes double or more what I make so he would take care of them if they needed it.

Greeks aren't all entitled, rude and arrogant - every single person we encountered was gracious, kind, and the family were the best hosts we could ask for. it's a shame that's what the international community thinks of as a generalization for Greeks. None of the family members thought leaving the EU would be a good idea and they were really at a loss on what should be done. We saw lines of people outside banks on Sunday as we drove towards Athens, one cousin had said they were going to be closing banks and people were starting to panic. Really sad overall.

That's about all I've got.

So what I'm getting from your comments is that many Greeks retire from full time emloyment at a much younger age than folks in most other countries.  (Your aunt and uncle are retired at 60ish.)  And, it appears that a good portion, if not most, of their retirement income is a government pension.  (Their pensions have been reduced and it sounds like it's causing problem in maintaining their lifestyle.)  And that unemployement/underemployment is a problem.  (A trained economist works as a hotel porter.)

What I don't hear is that young Greeks are leaving the country in search of employment opprtunities.  When I was last in Ireland, after Ireland joined the EU, it was very common to find young folks with slavic accents waiting tables and working in other jobs.  Prior to that, it was common for young Irish folks to leave Ireland in search of better economic opportunity.  Often to the US or Australia.  I've crossed paths with Poles in Ireland and Irishmen in southern France and the US, but, so far, it doesn't seem like lots of Greek youngsters leave home to improve their situation. 

Another thing that I don't hear is how hard the Greek government has been working to spur the kind of economic development that will provide jobs and bolster the GDP.

Is it sad?  Is it terribly painful for Greeks?  You bet it is.  But what I find really sad is that the Greeks have elected politicians for decades who have promised voters something for nothing, who have, apparently, allowed 60% of the voters to evade the taxes required to operate the country, and who have borrowed more and more from the country's creditors to give goodies to the voters.  The Greeks were the founders of much of our civilization.  I believe they are smarter than what they have caused to happen would indicate.

Greece should be taken as an object lesson for other countries.  There ain't no free lunch.  Sooner or later, your grandchildren and great grandchildren will suffer or enjoy the consequences of your decisions.   

[cael]

Not saying any of that is inaccurate. It is sad and painful for them, and the folks we talked to know something has to change, but no one seems sure what that something will have to be. (we also didn't have a good enough common language to have a real conversation about it.) The whole thing is just a shame and yes, you would wish Greece would be smarter than to let this happen.

[tskeeter]

Jul 2, 2015 13:33:33 GMT -5 cael said:

Not saying any of that is inaccurate. It is sad and painful for them, and the folks we talked to know something has to change, but no one seems sure what that something will have to be. (we also didn't have a good enough common language to have a real conversation about it.) The whole thing is just a shame and yes, you would wish Greece would be smarter than to let this happen.

One of the things Ireland did to become the Celtic Tiger was to focus on becoming one of the most business friendly countries in which to locate your business.  And they provided a workforce whose education was well above many other countries.  And they provided incentives to businesses that would employ Irish citizens.

The outcome was that many high tech businesses located in Ireland.  It became a bit of a software mecca.  And young Irishmen from around the world began to return to jobs at home.  And Ireland achieved a level of economic stability that allowed it to join the EU.  And the EU made a bunch of investment in Ireland's infrastructure, improving roads and the like.  

Now, Ireland still doesn't have the economic stability of some EU members.  It has experienced significant economic challenges in the several years.  But, Ireland has demonstrated that a country with a commitment can make great changes to it's economic future in just a couple of decades. 

[obelisk]

Keep in mind the difference between a "southern" country and a "northern" country in Europe  The south will talk about it to no end while a northern country will take action.