Cops end up shooting man they were trying to rescue in flood

[Shooby]

An Oklahoma man was shot and killed during a confrontation with two state troopers who were trying to rescue him and another man from rising floodwaters that were rapidly advancing.

The troopers responded to a report of a stranded vehicle in Okmulgee County, about 20 miles south of Tulsa, about 9.30 pm on Friday, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol said Saturday.

They found two men trying to remove a vehicle from a roadway over which water was rising and moving quickly, according to Capt Paul Timmons.


www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3103842/Oklahoma-man-shot-killed-police-fight-rescue.html

[busymom]

The article says one of the men got into a fight with an officer. If you're dumb enough to fight a police officer on duty, you don't get a lot of sympathy from me.

[Shooby]

I don't disagree. But, people in extreme and stressful circumstances often act stupidly. Do we really want the Police gunning down everyone? Is there any common sense regarding circumstances, mental health issues, substance abuse, addiction, dementia , etc? I don't recall Police resorting to automatically gunning people down 20 yrs ago like they do now.

[busymom]

Agreed. But, I also don't remember the public getting into so many fights with officers compared to the past, either. My folks taught me as a kid to NEVER challenge an officer who stops you for any reason. The two correct answers when speaking with an officer, even if you think he's totally in the wrong, are "Yes Sir" and "No Sir".

[billisonboard]

May 31, 2015 7:49:23 GMT -5 Shooby said:

... I don't recall Police resorting to automatically gunning people down 20 yrs ago like they do now.

I wondered about this so did some research. Here is one thing I found: Are deaths from police shootings the highest in 20 years?

[Shooby]

I think cops are feeling much more free to use deadly force, even when they don't have too. And, that is very disturbing.

[jkapp]

May 31, 2015 9:32:02 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I think cops are feeling much more free to use deadly force, even when they don't have too. And, that is very disturbing.

I find it just as disturbing that the public is getting so out of control that the police feel the need to use deadly force.

Respect for authority is not really getting taught anymore (especially by parents)...its starting with kids not being taught to respect their parents, then not to respect teachers, and these kids are now growing up and not respecting law enforcement.  Also, in contrast, these same kids who are "taught" that they can do no wrong are becoming police officers.

So it really isn't too surprising that any of this is happening, is it? Raise shitty kids, you get shitty adults...

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Before this turns into yet another cop-bashing thread, did it occur to you that the two suspects were the aggressors? You don't confront officers - especially if they're trying to rescue you.

At least one was armed, and at least one (if not both) were intoxicated.

The men were asked to get away from the vehicle and up onto dry land for their own safety.

One of the men when reaching dry land attacked and assaulted one of the officers.

www.cbsnews.com/news/oklahoma-man-shot-killed-by-police-after-fight-over-rescue/

"They were trying to get them to come out of the water. They were worried about them getting swept away," Timmons said. "(The men), for whatever reason, were just really upset about having to leave the vehicle there."

Timmons told CBS affiliate KOTV in Tulsa that at least one man attacked a trooper after reaching dry land.

"As they were exiting the water, coming towards the troopers, a confrontation occurred," said Timmons. "One of the troopers was actually assaulted, and in defense of himself, he fired."

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

True - who needs 'em? They just get in the way of things like robberies, assaults, shootings, etc.

Citizens policing themselves would be a much better society.

[Deleted]

May 31, 2015 9:58:23 GMT -5 jkapp said:

May 31, 2015 9:32:02 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I think cops are feeling much more free to use deadly force, even when they don't have too. And, that is very disturbing.

I find it just as disturbing that the public is getting so out of control that the police feel the need to use deadly force.

Respect for authority is not really getting taught anymore (especially by parents)...its starting with kids not being taught to respect their parents, then not to respect teachers, and these kids are now growing up and not respecting law enforcement.  Also, in contrast, these same kids who are "taught" that they can do no wrong are becoming police officers.

So it really isn't too surprising that any of this is happening, is it? Raise shitty kids, you get shitty adults...

I do not understand your point.  You say, "Also, in contrast, these same kids who are "taught" that they can do no wrong are becoming police officers."  You also say people should respect the police.  Why should I respect someone wh thinks he can do no wrong?  Maybe you meant "fear" instead of "respect".  I certainly understand why I should fear someone with a gun who thinks he can do no wrong.

[Shooby]

I think Society is supposed to hold the Police to a high standard. If you all just want to be flippant with the "well let's just get rid of the Police" type thing, then fine. But, I think that every incident should be examined and if there is police misconduct , then it needs to be dealt with and not shrugged off. And, if we don't, then Society will lose more and more confidence in the Police and they you will see even a greater rise in crime as people just decide to handle things themselves. Once you break the Public Trust, then that will be a problem.

[zibazinski]

I don't know anyone who feels that way. I'm glad.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I think Society is supposed to hold the Police to a high standard. If you all just want to be flippant with the "well let's just get rid of the Police" type thing, then fine. But, I think that every incident should be examined and if there is police misconduct , then it needs to be dealt with and not shrugged off. And, if we don't, then Society will lose more and more confidence in the Police and they you will see even a greater rise in crime as people just decide to handle things themselves. Once you break the Public Trust, then that will be a problem.

What makes you assume there was any misconduct in this instance? I certainly didn't read of any.

For every "bad cop", there are hundreds (if not thousands) good ones out there putting their lives on the line every day to protect YOU.

Police officers are trained professionals - trained to handle a myriad of situations - in this case, it wasn't the officers who were the aggressors. They were called about a car in the water - they were trying to get the men away from the fast current and up on dry land.

The two suspects (armed and intoxicated) approached, confronted and assaulted the officers.

THEY were the aggressors - not the officers. What do you expect the officers to do - stand there, do nothing, and take their chances?

[tallguy]

"They were trying to get them to come out of the water. They were worried about them getting swept away," Timmons said. "(The men), for whatever reason, were just really upset about having to leave the vehicle there."

Probably didn't want to lose the $82 worth of moonshine in the trunk....  

[Deleted]

May 31, 2015 12:47:38 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I think Society is supposed to hold the Police to a high standard. If you all just want to be flippant with the "well let's just get rid of the Police" type thing, then fine. But, I think that every incident should be examined and if there is police misconduct , then it needs to be dealt with and not shrugged off. And, if we don't, then Society will lose more and more confidence in the Police and they you will see even a greater rise in crime as people just decide to handle things themselves. Once you break the Public Trust, then that will be a problem.

For every "bad cop", there are hundreds (if not thousands) good ones out there

Police abuse their spouse at a rate twice the national average.  What makes you think that if they will and do beat someone they love they won't beat or kill someone else for no good reason?

Do you have any back up data  for  hundreds (if not thousands) of good ones to one bad one?  It is a rhetorical question, because of course you don't. 

[MJ2.0]

May 31, 2015 12:57:18 GMT -5 @hickle said:

May 31, 2015 12:47:38 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

For every "bad cop", there are hundreds (if not thousands) good ones out there

Police abuse their spouse at a rate twice the national average.  What makes you think that if they will and do beat someone they love they won't beat or kill someone else for no good reason?

Do you have any back up data  for  hundreds (if not thousands) of good ones to one bad one?  It is a rhetorical question, because of course you don't. 

Do you have a stat on the spousal abuse claim you just made?

[MJ2.0]

Or better yet, a source?

[Deleted]

May 31, 2015 13:24:25 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

May 31, 2015 12:57:18 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Police abuse their spouse at a rate twice the national average.  What makes you think that if they will and do beat someone they love they won't beat or kill someone else for no good reason?

Do you have any back up data  for  hundreds (if not thousands) of good ones to one bad one?  It is a rhetorical question, because of course you don't. 

Do you have a stat on the spousal abuse claim you just made?

dozens of them

[Deleted]

May 31, 2015 13:28:47 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

May 31, 2015 12:17:44 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I think Society is supposed to hold the Police to a high standard. If you all just want to be flippant with the "well let's just get rid of the Police" type thing, then fine. But, I think that every incident should be examined and if there is police misconduct , then it needs to be dealt with and not shrugged off. And, if we don't, then Society will lose more and more confidence in the Police and they you will see even a greater rise in crime as people just decide to handle things themselves. Once you break the Public Trust, then that will be a problem.

Since I assume this was directed at me (and next time please just ear burn me instead of alluding).  Ill comment.  Who is being flippent? The many many threads and ariticle make it abundantly clear that the police aren't able to do the job. If that is the case the only natural course of action is to disband them. 

Or do you have another suggestion?  Because all I see here is armchair quarterbacking. 

hold them accountable for their actions.  Investigate the allegations like other crimes, i.e. no ten day waiting period, supervisors or colleagues are  not the ones investigating  etc.

[billisonboard]

May 31, 2015 13:28:47 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

...

Or do you have another suggestion? ...

Improved training.

[thyme4change]

How does someone get "accidentally assaulted"??

And - if the other guy was arrested for intoxication - it is possible that he was not getting drunk alone.  It really sounds like these two made some bad choices.  But still "accidentally assaulted"?  What in the hell does that mean?

[Deleted]

May 31, 2015 13:42:50 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

May 31, 2015 13:33:32 GMT -5 @hickle said:

hold them accountable for their actions.  Investigate the allegations like other crimes, i.e. no ten day waiting period, supervisors or colleagues are  not the ones investigating  etc.

Aren't all police immediately put on admin leave after a police involved shooting? Aren't all police involved shootings immediately investigated?   I don't even know what you are implying here?

No, many police get ten days before they are asked questions.  I think people are confused about what "imply" means.  I stated outright that police should not get a ten day waiting period to answer questions.

www.dailykos.com/story/2015/04/22/1379495/-Baltimore-Police-Bill-of-Rights-gives-them-10-days-after-killing-someone-until-they-have-to-talk

[thyme4change]

May 31, 2015 13:46:33 GMT -5 @hickle said:

May 31, 2015 13:42:50 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Aren't all police immediately put on admin leave after a police involved shooting? Aren't all police involved shootings immediately investigated?   I don't even know what you are implying here?

No, many police get ten days before they are asked questions.  I think people are confused about what "imply" means.  I stated outright that police should not get a ten day waiting period to answer questions.

www.dailykos.com/story/2015/04/22/1379495/-Baltimore-Police-Bill-of-Rights-gives-them-10-days-after-killing-someone-until-they-have-to-talk

Hate to tell you this, but we actually all the right not to talk after we shoot someone.  The absolute best course of action, no matter what crime you are accused of is to say "I will not answer any questions, I would like a lawyer."  Say it over and over until they leave you alone.  So, if you are investigating the shooting to have it possibly be a criminal situation, I am not sure how the rights of one human get stomped but we are still able to maintain the constitution.  This is one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations.


-----------------------
Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

[billisonboard]

May 31, 2015 13:40:44 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

May 31, 2015 13:36:03 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Improved training.

Training in what?  This particular instance appears to be they saved two people who then attacked them.  What training should they have had?  How to take a punch better?  How not to be beaten in such a way they lose unconsciousness?  How to spot people to save that won't turn on them and assault them?  

Please do tell me what training they were lacking? 

Police will continue to shoot people. There is no initial indication this one particular shooting was avoidable. The conversation has gone beyond this one particular incident.

[billisonboard]

May 31, 2015 14:26:30 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

May 31, 2015 14:24:05 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Police will continue to shoot people. There is no initial indication this one particular shooting was avoidable. The conversation has gone beyond this one particular incident.

Then expand...training in what.  

Deescalation and disengagement skills. Ego detachment is another.

[MJ2.0]

I would love to see how some of you would react in a possibly life threatening situation if you were given a loaded weapon. Police aren't perfect and there are definitely bad apples, but they do have a checks and balances system to investigate shooting incidents. Until the world becomes "I, Robot", accept that police are human beings capable of error. All the training in the world will not change that.

[zibazinski]

Best to be careful around anyone with a gun.

[MJ2.0]

I never understood why people mouth off to cops. I have never had an issue talking to a cop even when I was in the wrong. Like that time I totaled my car and the cop asked me if I could move it to the shoulder - uh no, you freaking moron!!!! But I simply said "I don't believe I can."

[kent]

Amen and +1,000.....

And also admit that these men and woman spend their careers in the areas most everyone spends their life avoiding? Maybe if some of you get out of the suburbs once in awhile, you know go shopping at the stores in these hell hole ghettos, get gas at the gas stations that you see on the morning news with the crime tape still flapping in the breeze, you might figure out that these places are really devoid of the moral code that you are used to.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 31, 2015 12:17:44 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I think Society is supposed to hold the Police to a high standard. If you all just want to be flippant with the "well let's just get rid of the Police" type thing, then fine. But, I think that every incident should be examined and if there is police misconduct , then it needs to be dealt with and not shrugged off. And, if we don't, then Society will lose more and more confidence in the Police and they you will see even a greater rise in crime as people just decide to handle things themselves. Once you break the Public Trust, then that will be a problem.

I don't see where there was any potential misconduct.  I see some troopers who risked their lives to save a couple of men from rising water and when they were saved, the men attacked the troopers (one was armed) because they did not want to leave their vehicle.

Do the troopers need to be injured before they are allowed to defend themselves?