OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on May 30, 2015 8:19:21 GMT -5
Oh, I have absolutely no doubt about which side you'd be on. You hate gays, too. OK Welts, Since you are really big on facts, why don't you show where I hate gays.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 30, 2015 8:29:24 GMT -5
There was talk on the radio about bikers coming to join in- something also about using their second amendment rights just in case they run into a problem with the first. The nerve of people wanting to stand up for the constitutional rights of others. And exactly what constitutional right are they defending? The right to be a stupid, worthless, confrontational, self-aggrandizing, disgusting little f***?
It would be different if the act of drawing a picture of Mohammad was an integral and necessary part of one's existence as an American. It isn't. It never will be. It is a created issue serving only to antagonize, possibly as an excuse to incite violence from the other side which will then justify their own in return. It serves NO responsible or justifiable purpose whatsoever. We have no need to prove our First Amendment rights by disrespecting another's religion. Our rights are not in danger. Our image of ourselves as freedom-loving and respectful to all, is. And it is endangered by the actions of ones such as these. Not by those being protested.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 10:24:59 GMT -5
There is a small town close to where I live that has a sizable Muslim population. I often see some of the women at the grocery store in their Muslim dress, hajibs or burkhas. It just pisses me off. I think about my 3 granddaughters, ages 9, 10, and 12. They are all smart girls who like to laugh and have fun. They make A's in school, are confident and think the world is open to whatever they want to become. When I see the women covered up, I think that what these people want for my granddaughters is to limit them, to make them hide who they are. I think burkhas and hajibs are ugly oppressive symbols.
Still I respect the right of everyone to believe whatever religion they choose. As much as I think it hurts the girls, I respect the right of parents to raise their children in whatever faith they choose. But I also respect the rights of people like me to say that it is an ugly oppressive faith. Maybe not all Muslims want to limit women, but enough do.
When I see women covered up like that, I don't like it, but too bad for me. I don't get to tell others what to do or how to act. If some Muslim sees a picture of Mohamed, likewise, too bad for him/her. They don't get to tell others what to do. We all have to deal with symbols we think are ugly and hateful.
My thoughts for what they are worth.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on May 30, 2015 10:44:43 GMT -5
I do understand what you are saying. I agree that drawing a picture is not the same as murder, but can you see that the desecration of something sacred is, to some, as hurtful? For example, if I saw you spitting on flag of the United States of America, it would hurt me worse than if you punched me in the face. If I saw you make disgusting cartoon representations of Jesus, it would cut me to the quick. However, if all I want to do is hurt you right back, I'm no better than you (the general you). I'd prefer to take the high road and know that while I do have the freedom of speech, I also have the freedom not to use it when it's hurtful to others. Just because we can do something doesn't mean it's right to do it. If we as a society gave in and outlawed drawing Mohamed, do you think that would be the end of it? I think the battle would just move on to something else the terrorists didn't approve of, maybe what women wear or if they drive. What does the flag symbolize to you? For me it is freedom. I would rather protect those freedoms then a symbol of them. Of course I don't want it outlawed. And you are right. That wouldn't solve anything. I'd rather people not have to be legislated into being civilized human beings.
You and I just have different opinions of why these people are doing this. You think it's to protect our freedom of speech. I think they are doing it to just to be mean and hateful. I agree with you that the flag symbolizes freedom. That means for everyone. Those people in that mosque have probably never done harm to a single person. I'm not a fan of using my freedom of speech to harass them.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 30, 2015 10:50:15 GMT -5
The difference, though, is that those women who are covered up out in public are not covering up merely as a way to antagonize you, or to teach your granddaughters that they should be second-class in any way. These protesters you defend ARE GOING OUT OF THEIR WAY to antagonize and create conflict where none needs to exist. I agree that we have a legal right to draw a picture of Mohammad if we choose. So what? That does not mean we should. There is no reason to, other than to prove oneself a ridiculous ass.
You say that you respect one's right to believe whatever religion they choose. Apparently, these protesters don't. Are you really sure you wish to hitch your wagon to such shining examples of reason and compassion?
*I don't know enough about Islamic teaching to know whether the girls and women are truly being harmed in any way. I would liken it at least somewhat to fundamentalist Christian teaching, where they are probably held in lesser stead than males, but the degree of harm is to a degree dependent on the interpretation of the teaching.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on May 30, 2015 10:52:34 GMT -5
@hickle Do the Amish and Hasidic Jews piss you off too with their traditions?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on May 30, 2015 10:54:23 GMT -5
Looks like the police outnumbered the protesters, Wonder who was protecting the rest of Phoenix? The media this morning is like, nothing happened last night, Crap, what am I going to report on this morning.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on May 30, 2015 10:56:44 GMT -5
There is a small town close to where I live that has a sizable Muslim population. I often see some of the women at the grocery store in their Muslim dress, hajibs or burkhas. It just pisses me off. I think about my 3 granddaughters, ages 9, 10, and 12. They are all smart girls who like to laugh and have fun. They make A's in school, are confident and think the world is open to whatever they want to become. When I see the women covered up, I think that what these people want for my granddaughters is to limit them, to make them hide who they are. I think burkhas and hajibs are ugly oppressive symbols. Still I respect the right of everyone to believe whatever religion they choose. As much as I think it hurts the girls, I respect the right of parents to raise their children in whatever faith they choose. But I also respect the rights of people like me to say that it is an ugly oppressive faith. Maybe not all Muslims want to limit women, but enough do. When I see women covered up like that, I don't like it, but too bad for me. I don't get to tell others what to do or how to act. If some Muslim sees a picture of Mohamed, likewise, too bad for him/her. They don't get to tell others what to do. We all have to deal with symbols we think are ugly and hateful. My thoughts for what they are worth. I admit it bothers me, too, hickle. But? Having lived my life as a Christian woman, I know they are some beliefs I hold that bother those who don't share those beliefs. For example, just post that you believe the man is the head of the household and watch peoples' heads explode. It's partly because they don't understand and partly because it just plain offends them. It's their right to disagree with that belief. It's even their right to say so. To me, that's what freedom of speech is about. It's not about being so upset about the way I believe that they go around desecrating symbols that are sacred to me. It's not about purposefully trying to incite violence.
I do understand what you are saying. We just have different opinions on motivation. If I truly thought these people were trying to protect anything, I might tend to agree with you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 10:58:30 GMT -5
@hickle Do the Amish and Hasidic Jews piss you off too with their traditions? I don't think the Amish or Jews want to convert others but don't know that. I want the world to be open for my daughters and granddaughters. Anyone who wants different then that does piss me off.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 30, 2015 10:59:35 GMT -5
I hope the anti-protesters outnumbered the protesters too. It would give me a bit more faith in the people of Arizona. After continually re-electing people like Arpaio, one starts to wonder....
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on May 30, 2015 11:04:55 GMT -5
@hickle Do the Amish and Hasidic Jews piss you off too with their traditions? I don't think the Amish or Jews want to convert others but don't know that. I want the world to be open for my daughters and granddaughters. Anyone who wants different then that does piss me off. I want the world to be open for your daughters and granddaughters, too. It will be...unless we ruin it with our prejudices and hate. You are a good person. You'll show them the way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 11:15:47 GMT -5
"Draw Mohamed" events are one off events, that are easy to ignore. The reason not to draw Mohamed is because of fear of idolatry, not because of any inherent evil in drawing him. (in my understanding). There is no sensible reason people can't just ignore these type of events.
Sticks and stones .... The people doing the event might just be looking to incite, but anyone who gets upset is just looking to be incited. If it is wrong on one side then it is equally wrong on the other. It is just a piece of paper with some pencil marks.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on May 30, 2015 11:21:14 GMT -5
We agree on that. It is wrong on the part of those inciting the violence and it's wrong on the part of those who allow themselves to be incited to violence. It's all wrong and it so dang easy, in this case, to avoid it all. Thankfully, it doesn't appear any innocent people were physically hurt. That's a win!
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 30, 2015 11:51:48 GMT -5
"Draw Mohamed" events are one off events, that are easy to ignore. The reason not to draw Mohamed is because of fear of idolatry, not because of any inherent evil in drawing him. (in my understanding). There is no sensible reason people can't just ignore these type of events. Sticks and stones .... The people doing the event might just be looking to incite, but anyone who gets upset is just looking to be incited. If it is wrong on one side then it is equally wrong on the other. It is just a piece of paper with some pencil marks. The protesters carrying the guns and tee-shirts stating "fuck Islam' were the one's who were upset. Ergo, the anti-Muslim protesters were looking to be incited. Little boys and their toys.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 30, 2015 12:03:22 GMT -5
Oh, I have absolutely no doubt about which side you'd be on. You hate gays, too. OK Welts, Since you are really big on facts, why don't you show where I hate gays. Well, I seem to remember you lambasting gays and siding with the bakers who refused to bake a cake and siding with the doctor who refused to treat the child of lesbians. If I was supposed to interpret that as you liking gays and wanting to afford them the same rights as everyone else, then my profound apologies.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 30, 2015 12:08:13 GMT -5
Jon Ritzheimer is a douche.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on May 30, 2015 12:15:12 GMT -5
Looking at the pic of little boys and their toys makes me wonder if the NRA is proud of that image. Is part of the teaching of gun safety to carrying those weapons to a public protest? They sure look tough confronting people leaving their place of worship after prayers.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 30, 2015 12:16:26 GMT -5
Bunch of douchecanoes.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 30, 2015 12:32:46 GMT -5
Looking at the pic of little boys and their toys makes me wonder if the NRA is proud of that image. Is part of the teaching of gun safety to carrying those weapons to a public protest? They sure look tough confronting people leaving their place of worship after prayers. I imagine if those were Muslim men standing outside a Christian church with their firearms in hand, the uproar would be something terrible.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on May 30, 2015 12:35:44 GMT -5
Maybe we need the Westboro Baptist church there to represent Christianity?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 30, 2015 12:40:13 GMT -5
Maybe we need the Westboro Baptist church there to represent Christianity? Put forward our finest.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on May 30, 2015 12:45:08 GMT -5
Why would the Westboro Baptist Church be there to represent Christianity? That would be like sending in skinheads to represent the people of Ferguson.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 30, 2015 13:56:59 GMT -5
Looking at the pic of little boys and their toys makes me wonder if the NRA is proud of that image. Is part of the teaching of gun safety to carrying those weapons to a public protest? They sure look tough confronting people leaving their place of worship after prayers. I imagine if those were Muslim men standing outside a Christian church with their firearms in hand, the uproar would be something terrible. Muslim Americans would not disrespect another church, bring guns or burn Bibles.
White American males on the other hand have been known to set entire churches on fire- folks just like the NRA poster boys- though I doubt even the NRA is going to support what they are doing except for the gun carrying.
It says a lot- all this news over around 200 assholes with no lives apparently- where in short order counter protestors went to bat for their neighbors. That's all they could muster.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on May 30, 2015 14:10:03 GMT -5
"Draw Mohamed" events are one off events, that are easy to ignore. The reason not to draw Mohamed is because of fear of idolatry, not because of any inherent evil in drawing him. (in my understanding). There is no sensible reason people can't just ignore these type of events. Sticks and stones .... The people doing the event might just be looking to incite, but anyone who gets upset is just looking to be incited. If it is wrong on one side then it is equally wrong on the other. It is just a piece of paper with some pencil marks. Good on ya for sticking to your values, hickle. That is precisely it. It has nothing to due with content, it's the fact that it's considered blasphemy just having a picture of Moe. For instance, DA Vinci's last supper is idolatry because it depicts the Messiah. Here is a million dollar painting... Chris Ofili’s ‘The Holy Virgin Mary’ to Be Sold What would happen if Christie's were to auction off the Je Suis Charlie photo? Oh and....
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on May 30, 2015 19:13:33 GMT -5
Why would the Westboro Baptist Church be there to represent Christianity? That would be like sending in skinheads to represent the people of Ferguson. That was my point. Just who was Jon Ritzheimer representing? Did the Marine Corp teach him to go out in public and confront peaceful Americans with a (looks like a semi automatic rifle) gun?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 30, 2015 19:49:47 GMT -5
OK Welts, Since you are really big on facts, why don't you show where I hate gays. Well, I seem to remember you lambasting gays and siding with the bakers who refused to bake a cake and siding with the doctor who refused to treat the child of lesbians. If I was supposed to interpret that as you liking gays and wanting to afford them the same rights as everyone else, then my profound apologies.
Well, I sided with the bakers and also with the doctor and I don't hate gays but you go on with your ideas.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 30, 2015 19:53:33 GMT -5
Interesting that it's okay to have "art" that depicts things offensive to Christians and Jews but only Islam is protected. Why is that? Because people are scared shitless? We, as a country, are so busy being PC that we don't see what's coming.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 30, 2015 20:05:35 GMT -5
Well I for one don't think it's okay. It's legal, yes, but that doesn't mean we should do it. People who do are the same type of idiots and assholes that are protesting above. And nobody so far has made idiocy or "assholishness" capital offenses. So much the pity.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 30, 2015 20:21:56 GMT -5
Interesting that it's okay to have "art" that depicts things offensive to Christians and Jews but only Islam is protected. Why is that? Because people are scared shitless? We, as a country, are so busy being PC that we don't see what's coming. That's a load of bullshit. In this country it is legal to insult and denigrate anyone. "Islam" is not "protected". The only thing to be gleaned from this assholish display of bigotry is that the Muslims took the high ground and ignored these pieces of shit losers.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 30, 2015 21:00:36 GMT -5
Yeah right
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