mroped
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Post by mroped on Apr 19, 2015 15:22:38 GMT -5
Perhaps THAT's why we need Black History Month. Those are the only ones you know. I'm not sure if I should take that as an insult or a challenge! Care to be more specific?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 19, 2015 15:30:05 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I've been in school. But I seem to recall that American history is taught from a certain viewpoint. The Native Americans that were here first are mentioned, because they posed a problem for the settlers, so they're part of the story. Slavery was crucial to the success of landowners in the south but then people decided it was wrong and all of that was a big deal, so it gets mentioned as part of the story. Then people started fighting about whether or not all Americans should have equal rights under the law, so that's part of the story too. When history is shared from the majority's viewpoint, most of what's told is told if and in relation to how it affected the majority. Native Americans, white people and black people all had important roles in our country's history. But unless you specifically study Native American History or African American history, you're taught mostly White American history. My learning of American History in the 50s and 60s did mention Native Americans and black slavery. But very few of Native Americans and blacks had names. White Americans in history were the only ones with names and detailed backgrounds.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 19, 2015 15:33:32 GMT -5
Uhh. This makes me rethink my plans of moving south when I retire . Don't let it be too much of a concern. There is racial bigotry in all four corners and in between of our country. Some places it is more overt while in others, more covert. It exists. It is how you and I deal with it that matters.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Apr 19, 2015 16:08:35 GMT -5
By all means, if anyone here has found BHM to be personally beneficial to them, let us know. Conversely, if anyone here has found that it contributes to their perceptions that blacks and black history aren't really integral to America, let us know. I grew up in a time and place that BHM was not a part of my educational experience. I grew up in a place where people of color were not a part of my everyday experience. I grew up in a relatively passive world of racism. I was limited to seeing people of color as either rioters on television or the rare character on network shows. I vaguely remember history books with people of color in little boxes on the sides of a few pages. I still struggle with seeing only a world of whites with people of color only in the margins. Would I have benefited from a well taught extended program of why and how they were marginalized and the contributions they made in spite of it? I believe I would have. So... BHM appears to be a measure of desperation because it is a measure of desperation in your experience. I suppose that's fair. I grew up in western Canada. Blacks made up slightly under 2% of the population but comprised 20% of the Canadian history curriculum, which included five units: Early European exploration/settlement, Confederation, the Metis and Aboriginals, black Canadians and race issues (e.g. racism, abolitionism, etc.), and Quebec (up to the FLQ crisis). We also covered the Renaissance, the Industrial Revolution, the French Revolution, and the Bolshevik (i.e. Russian) Revolution, which weren't portrayed as "white history" in any sense. They were covered specifically because they were world-changing events--especially so for western society. In a Language Arts (LA) unit, we discussed race issues at length while reading/analyzing a novel about slave life on a US Cotton plantation and escaping to freedom via the Underground Railroad. I can't recall the name of the novel. "Black history" wasn't something that needed to be tacked on so that blacks could be more than little boxes stuffed into margins. Educators really weren't that desperate. Then again, I can't rightly remember seeing blacks as rioters on TV. We had black kids in our class. Nobody thought anything of it. When I got home during my middle school years, I watched "Family Matters" (about a middle-class black family), "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" (about an upper-class black family), and "The Simpsons", where the only four black characters I can recall are a doctor, a judge, a police officer, and Homer's friend "Carl" from the nuclear plant. Race wasn't the histrionic white-versus-black issue that Americans (racists and non-racists alike) are devoted to keeping ablaze for all time. Maybe that's the root of our difference in views.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Apr 19, 2015 16:27:13 GMT -5
I grew up in a time and place that BHM was not a part of my educational experience. I grew up in a place where people of color were not a part of my everyday experience. I grew up in a relatively passive world of racism. I was limited to seeing people of color as either rioters on television or the rare character on network shows. I vaguely remember history books with people of color in little boxes on the sides of a few pages. I still struggle with seeing only a world of whites with people of color only in the margins. Would I have benefited from a well taught extended program of why and how they were marginalized and the contributions they made in spite of it? I believe I would have. So... BHM appears to be a measure of desperation because it is a measure of desperation in your experience. I suppose that's fair. I grew up in western Canada. Blacks made up slightly under 2% of the population but comprised 20% of the Canadian history curriculum, which included five units: Early European exploration/settlement, Confederation, the Metis and Aboriginals, black Canadians and race issues (e.g. racism, abolitionism, etc.), and Quebec (up to the FLQ crisis). We also covered the Renaissance, the Industrial Revolution, the French Revolution, and the Bolshevik (i.e. Russian) Revolution, which weren't portrayed as "white history" in any sense. They were covered specifically because they were world-changing events--especially so for western society. In a Language Arts (LA) unit, we discussed race issues at length while reading/analyzing a novel about slave life on a US Cotton plantation and escaping to freedom via the Underground Railroad. I can't recall the name of the novel. "Black history" wasn't something that needed to be tacked on so that blacks could be more than little boxes stuffed into margins. Educators really weren't that desperate. Then again, I can't rightly remember seeing blacks as rioters on TV. We had black kids in our class. Nobody thought anything of it. When I got home during my middle school years, I watched "Family Matters" (about a middle-class black family), "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" (about an upper-class black family), and "The Simpsons", where the only four black characters I can recall are a doctor, a judge, a police officer, and Homer's friend "Carl" from the nuclear plant. Race wasn't the histrionic white-versus-black issue that Americans (racists and non-racists alike) are devoted to keeping ablaze for all time. Maybe that's the root of our difference in views. And maybe that's why your opinion on BHM isn't really relevant (no offense).
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 19, 2015 16:32:22 GMT -5
... Blacks made up slightly under 2% of the population ... ... We had black kids in our class. ...
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 19, 2015 18:01:48 GMT -5
I grew up in a time and place that BHM was not a part of my educational experience. I grew up in a place where people of color were not a part of my everyday experience. I grew up in a relatively passive world of racism. I was limited to seeing people of color as either rioters on television or the rare character on network shows. I vaguely remember history books with people of color in little boxes on the sides of a few pages. I still struggle with seeing only a world of whites with people of color only in the margins. Would I have benefited from a well taught extended program of why and how they were marginalized and the contributions they made in spite of it? I believe I would have. So... BHM appears to be a measure of desperation because it is a measure of desperation in your experience. I suppose that's fair. I grew up in western Canada. Blacks made up slightly under 2% of the population but comprised 20% of the Canadian history curriculum, which included five units: Early European exploration/settlement, Confederation, the Metis and Aboriginals, black Canadians and race issues (e.g. racism, abolitionism, etc.), and Quebec (up to the FLQ crisis). We also covered the Renaissance, the Industrial Revolution, the French Revolution, and the Bolshevik (i.e. Russian) Revolution, which weren't portrayed as "white history" in any sense. They were covered specifically because they were world-changing events--especially so for western society. In a Language Arts (LA) unit, we discussed race issues at length while reading/analyzing a novel about slave life on a US Cotton plantation and escaping to freedom via the Underground Railroad. I can't recall the name of the novel. "Black history" wasn't something that needed to be tacked on so that blacks could be more than little boxes stuffed into margins. Educators really weren't that desperate. Then again, I can't rightly remember seeing blacks as rioters on TV. We had black kids in our class. Nobody thought anything of it. When I got home during my middle school years, I watched "Family Matters" (about a middle-class black family), "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" (about an upper-class black family), and "The Simpsons", where the only four black characters I can recall are a doctor, a judge, a police officer, and Homer's friend "Carl" from the nuclear plant. Race wasn't the histrionic white-versus-black issue that Americans (racists and non-racists alike) are devoted to keeping ablaze for all time. Maybe that's the root of our difference in views.I had no doubt even before your post, and am not at all surprised, that your experience growing up was different. Trust these other posters that their experience was not like yours. I may be wrong, but I have never known Canada to have the same types of black/white issues as the U.S., and particularly the southern U.S. Between different other cultures, perhaps, but even then not to anywhere near the same degree. Even I have never experienced or seen in real life what I have read about or seen on the news or in documentaries. That does not negate any of it. It did happen, it continues to happen, and it will continue to happen for a long time.
With regard to the bolded portion specifically, I would counter that many of us are not at all interested in fanning the flames, but in extinguishing them instead. BHM is not separatist no matter how you personally choose to look at it, and an insistence otherwise does more to keep the issue alive than BHM itself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 19:01:41 GMT -5
Where did I ever say they should be? Please feel free to point it out. "except for the fact that Tyson and Dean aren't dead yet... so their "life's accomplishments" can't actually be tabulated yet)." Why can't their current accomplishments be noted today? Someone does not have to be dead to note their accomplishments up to date. Why do we need a full body of work to admire and emulate someone? We didn't need Mother Theresa to be dead before we could admire and hopefully emulate her compassion for the poor and underpriviledged, her "life accomplishments". We could and did admire her while she was still alive. That is how I took your quoted passage. Their "current, to date" accomplishments certainly can be, but their "life's accomplishments" can't be... because their life isn't over yet. You have to take the sentence in it's entirety. So it's not an equal comparison "life's accomplishments" to "life's accomplishments" to "life's accomplishments" to "life's accomplishments", et cetera. It's an unbalanced comparison if you include two "life not over yet, so here's what they've done so far". and... that comment was also more tongue-in-cheek than anything anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 19:20:03 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I've been in school. But I seem to recall that American history is taught from a certain viewpoint. The Native Americans that were here first are mentioned, because they posed a problem for the settlers, so they're part of the story. Slavery was crucial to the success of landowners in the south but then people decided it was wrong and all of that was a big deal, so it gets mentioned as part of the story. Then people started fighting about whether or not all Americans should have equal rights under the law, so that's part of the story too. When history is shared from the majority's viewpoint, most of what's told is told if and in relation to how it affected the majority. Native Americans, white people and black people all had important roles in our country's history. But unless you specifically study Native American History or African American history, you're taught mostly White American history. But the best solution ISN'T to create a divisive, segregated, history lesson... the best solution is to integrate the facts about Indian or Black or Chinese or whatever into the whole of history.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Apr 19, 2015 19:26:38 GMT -5
I had no doubt even before your post, and am not at all surprised, that your experience growing up was different. Trust these other posters that their experience was not like yours. I may be wrong, but I have never known Canada to have the same types of black/white issues as the U.S., and particularly the southern U.S. Between different other cultures, perhaps, but even then not to anywhere near the same degree. Even I have never experienced or seen in real life what I have read about or seen on the news or in documentaries. That does not negate any of it. It did happen, it continues to happen, and it will continue to happen for a long time.
With regard to the bolded portion specifically, I would counter that many of us are not at all interested in fanning the flames, but in extinguishing them instead. BHM is not separatist no matter how you personally choose to look at it, and an insistence otherwise does more to keep the issue alive than BHM itself.
I know you want to extinguish them. I'm suggesting that one of the reasons racism has always and will always be a problem in the US is because your methods of combating it stink. Old-fashioned racism isn't the half of the problem. I'll say the same thing about Canada's national handling of aboriginals. Our methods of combating racism against aboriginals are an utter failure. They've been a failure for nearly 100 years, and it's definitely not for lack of trying.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 19, 2015 19:30:01 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I've been in school. But I seem to recall that American history is taught from a certain viewpoint. The Native Americans that were here first are mentioned, because they posed a problem for the settlers, so they're part of the story. Slavery was crucial to the success of landowners in the south but then people decided it was wrong and all of that was a big deal, so it gets mentioned as part of the story. Then people started fighting about whether or not all Americans should have equal rights under the law, so that's part of the story too. When history is shared from the majority's viewpoint, most of what's told is told if and in relation to how it affected the majority. Native Americans, white people and black people all had important roles in our country's history. But unless you specifically study Native American History or African American history, you're taught mostly White American history. But the best solution ISN'T to create a divisive, segregated, history lesson... the best solution is to integrate the facts about Indian or Black or Chinese or whatever into the whole of history. Good luck changing that seeing many/most U.S. history school books are developed by the Texas school board.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 19:40:27 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I've been in school. But I seem to recall that American history is taught from a certain viewpoint. The Native Americans that were here first are mentioned, because they posed a problem for the settlers, so they're part of the story. Slavery was crucial to the success of landowners in the south but then people decided it was wrong and all of that was a big deal, so it gets mentioned as part of the story. Then people started fighting about whether or not all Americans should have equal rights under the law, so that's part of the story too. When history is shared from the majority's viewpoint, most of what's told is told if and in relation to how it affected the majority. Native Americans, white people and black people all had important roles in our country's history. But unless you specifically study Native American History or African American history, you're taught mostly White American history. But the best solution ISN'T to create a divisive, segregated, history lesson... the best solution is to integrate the facts about Indian or Black or Chinese or whatever into the whole of history. I agree. Are we there yet?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 19:51:44 GMT -5
I had no doubt even before your post, and am not at all surprised, that your experience growing up was different. Trust these other posters that their experience was not like yours. I may be wrong, but I have never known Canada to have the same types of black/white issues as the U.S., and particularly the southern U.S. Between different other cultures, perhaps, but even then not to anywhere near the same degree. Even I have never experienced or seen in real life what I have read about or seen on the news or in documentaries. That does not negate any of it. It did happen, it continues to happen, and it will continue to happen for a long time.
With regard to the bolded portion specifically, I would counter that many of us are not at all interested in fanning the flames, but in extinguishing them instead. BHM is not separatist no matter how you personally choose to look at it, and an insistence otherwise does more to keep the issue alive than BHM itself.
I know you want to extinguish them. I'm suggesting that one of the reasons racism has always and will always be a problem in the US is because your methods of combating it stink. Old-fashioned racism isn't the half of the problem. I'll say the same thing about Canada's national handling of aboriginals. Our methods of combating racism against aboriginals are an utter failure. They've been a failure for nearly 100 years, and it's definitely not for lack of trying. What methods do we need to use to combat racism?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 19, 2015 19:53:18 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I've been in school. But I seem to recall that American history is taught from a certain viewpoint. The Native Americans that were here first are mentioned, because they posed a problem for the settlers, so they're part of the story. Slavery was crucial to the success of landowners in the south but then people decided it was wrong and all of that was a big deal, so it gets mentioned as part of the story. Then people started fighting about whether or not all Americans should have equal rights under the law, so that's part of the story too. When history is shared from the majority's viewpoint, most of what's told is told if and in relation to how it affected the majority. Native Americans, white people and black people all had important roles in our country's history. But unless you specifically study Native American History or African American history, you're taught mostly White American history. But the best solution ISN'T to create a divisive, segregated, history lesson... the best solution is to integrate the facts about Indian or Black or Chinese or whatever into the whole of history. While I can agree with that, do you really see it happening in our present political state? Do a search for Texas textbook controversies. Given that Texas is so large that it has historically had great influence over the textbooks used in other states as well, do you really want Texas deciding what should be taught? This is from one site. There are MANY others to illustrate the problem.
Proposed Texas textbooks are inaccurate, biased and politicized, new report finds
While I consider it a given that this country is increasingly better off as a whole as Texas' influence wanes in pretty much any area, it actually frightens me to think that schoolchildren will be learning history and government according to the wishes of right-wing zealots. And certainly as long as such things are the case, BHM as a SUPPLEMENT to traditional history education cannot be negative. If you truly want to see a divisive, segregated history lesson, look where the GOP radicals want to take us.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 19, 2015 20:06:04 GMT -5
I had no doubt even before your post, and am not at all surprised, that your experience growing up was different. Trust these other posters that their experience was not like yours. I may be wrong, but I have never known Canada to have the same types of black/white issues as the U.S., and particularly the southern U.S. Between different other cultures, perhaps, but even then not to anywhere near the same degree. Even I have never experienced or seen in real life what I have read about or seen on the news or in documentaries. That does not negate any of it. It did happen, it continues to happen, and it will continue to happen for a long time.
With regard to the bolded portion specifically, I would counter that many of us are not at all interested in fanning the flames, but in extinguishing them instead. BHM is not separatist no matter how you personally choose to look at it, and an insistence otherwise does more to keep the issue alive than BHM itself.
I know you want to extinguish them. I'm suggesting that one of the reasons racism has always and will always be a problem in the US is because your methods of combating it stink. Old-fashioned racism isn't the half of the problem. I'll say the same thing about Canada's national handling of aboriginals. Our methods of combating racism against aboriginals are an utter failure. They've been a failure for nearly 100 years, and it's definitely not for lack of trying. Yeah, if only they would let us lynch the racists instead of having them be the ones doing the lynching.... Well, that's what we get for our insistence on individual liberties and the freedom of belief and expression. Damn those liberals!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 20:24:55 GMT -5
But the best solution ISN'T to create a divisive, segregated, history lesson... the best solution is to integrate the facts about Indian or Black or Chinese or whatever into the whole of history. I agree. Are we there yet? Not yet... and we'll never get there as long as people think segregated things are the solution. It's sad to me what wasn't learned with the whole "separate but equal" thing back before the 60's. Blacks had their counters and water fountains and everything else... and Whites had all the rest. If that segregation wasn't acceptable, why is this segregation acceptable? Segregation should never be acceptable. We are all the HUMAN race.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 20:28:04 GMT -5
But the best solution ISN'T to create a divisive, segregated, history lesson... the best solution is to integrate the facts about Indian or Black or Chinese or whatever into the whole of history. While I can agree with that, do you really see it happening in our present political state? Do a search for Texas textbook controversies. Given that Texas is so large that it has historically had great influence over the textbooks used in other states as well, do you really want Texas deciding what should be taught? This is from one site. There are MANY others to illustrate the problem.
Proposed Texas textbooks are inaccurate, biased and politicized, new report finds
While I consider it a given that this country is increasingly better off as a whole as Texas' influence wanes in pretty much any area, it actually frightens me to think that schoolchildren will be learning history and government according to the wishes of right-wing zealots. And certainly as long as such things are the case, BHM as a SUPPLEMENT to traditional history education cannot be negative. If you truly want to see a divisive, segregated history lesson, look where the GOP radicals want to take us. The solution the is to get Texas out of the approval business for what goes into textbooks. If you have a flat tire you don't fix the problem by replacing the air filter... do you?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 19, 2015 20:37:50 GMT -5
I agree. Are we there yet? Not yet... and we'll never get there as long as people think segregated things are the solution. It's sad to me what wasn't learned with the whole "separate but equal" thing back before the 60's. Blacks had their counters and water fountains and everything else... and Whites had all the rest. If that segregation wasn't acceptable, why is this segregation acceptable? Segregation should never be acceptable. We are all the HUMAN race. This isn't segregation. It is more like awareness. October being breast cancer awareness month doesn't mean we ignore it the other 11 months. It just means we focus on it a little extra.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 20:39:24 GMT -5
I agree. Are we there yet? Not yet... and we'll never get there as long as people think segregated things are the solution. It's sad to me what wasn't learned with the whole "separate but equal" thing back before the 60's. Blacks had their counters and water fountains and everything else... and Whites had all the rest. If that segregation wasn't acceptable, why is this segregation acceptable? Segregation should never be acceptable. We are all the HUMAN race. It is "in addition to", not "instead of". If we could just get to "included".....
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 19, 2015 20:40:41 GMT -5
"Texas originally acquired its power over the nation’s textbook supply because it paid 100 percent of the cost of all public school textbooks, as long as the books in question came from a very short list of board-approved options." Full article here: How Texas Inflicts Bad Textbooks on Us
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 19, 2015 21:00:58 GMT -5
When something has been ongoing for a very long period of time, you're not going to erase it with a wave of your wand. Having a BHM gives all a chance to learn if they're willing to take it on. I lived the school segregation debacle. I was in high school in Oklahoma (not the deep south). It was horrible. It was horrible because of ignorance. I'm for anything that decreases that ignorance. We can't come together as a whole if we won't take the time, and the opportunity to learn about one another. MOO
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 19, 2015 22:18:23 GMT -5
I know you've tried to overcome it, but we can still see that Oklahoma influence.... We certainly respect the effort, nevertheless.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Apr 19, 2015 22:27:51 GMT -5
tallguy: You do realize the report you posted without attribution in Reply #143 originates at the Texas Freedom Network, an anti-Christian activist group that's about as likely to be objective as theblaze.com. For a guy who likes to throw rocks...
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 19, 2015 22:27:58 GMT -5
As a diversion, I am watching the special features from The Twilight Zone Season Five DVD set. Part is from an interview with Rod Serling:
He may be right.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 19, 2015 22:30:46 GMT -5
I know you've tried to overcome it, but we can still see that Oklahoma influence.... We certainly respect the effort, nevertheless. I was a city gal, bro. Not a cow in sight! My Opinion Only
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 19, 2015 22:30:57 GMT -5
tallguy: You do realize the report you posted without attribution in Reply #143 originates at the Texas Freedom Network, an anti-Christian activist group that's about as likely to be objective as theblaze.com. For a guy who likes to throw rocks... I just picked the first one I saw, but as I said, there are MANY others to choose from. Pick one. The problem is well-known.
You realize also that the Texas Freedom Network did not perform the reviews. They contracted with professors and doctoral students at three universities. If you read the Executive Summary of the report, of the more than 140 reviewers the State Board of Education used to approve the textbooks, only four appeared to be college faculty members, and one of those teaches in an unrelated field at an out-of-state evangelical college.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 19, 2015 23:41:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you mean by "without attribution." I linked to the Washington Post article which clearly states the Texas Freedom Network's involvement and identifies them as "a watchdog and activist group that monitors far-right issues and organizations." Is that not sufficient for you?
Further, it is a stretch to call it an anti-Christian group, considering how many of them and the related Texas Faith Network are Christian. What they do (according to their site) is fight against the corrupting of religious freedom and civil liberties:
link
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 19, 2015 23:48:27 GMT -5
I know you've tried to overcome it, but we can still see that Oklahoma influence.... We certainly respect the effort, nevertheless. I was a city gal, bro. Not a cow in sight! My Opinion Only Ohhhhhhhh, that's very different. Never mind.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Apr 20, 2015 6:55:43 GMT -5
In reading this thread, I don't know if some of you are being deliberately obtuse or you are just really that dumb that you don't understand the difference having a "segregated" month for one group and the actual intention behind BHM.
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Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Apr 20, 2015 8:35:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you mean by "without attribution." I linked to the Washington Post article which clearly states the Texas Freedom Network's involvement and identifies them as "a watchdog and activist group that monitors far-right issues and organizations." Is that not sufficient for you? The link appears indistinguishable from the text in my browser. I recently changed "themes", and that must be the culprit. Please disregard the criticism. Mea culpa. In reading this thread, I don't know if some of you are being deliberately obtuse or you are just really that dumb that you don't understand the difference having a "segregated" month for one group and the actual intention behind BHM. I have no doubt there are good intentions behind BHM, and that it realizes some success in achieving its goals. I worry that unintended consequences are along for the ride. In particular, the last thing the US needs is anything more to promote tribal mentalities. Indeed. But they do choose which conclusions to publish, and how to present them. My concern was that you had no idea where the report came from, since I didn't realize you'd attributed it.
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