GA teachers get hard time for cheating

[EVT1]

Something is very wrong here.

www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2015/04/atlanta_teachers_cheating_sent.html

True what they did was wrong, even a crime- but a 20 year sentence?  A judge that basically threatened them with as much if they did not plea.  WTF?

Meanwhile even that asshole at Enron that cheated and caused so much damage was out in 6 years- less time than these teachers/administrators will do in the best case scenario.

     Baxter reserved the harshest punishment for three regional directors who oversaw multiple schools and were "at the very top of this scandal." For them, Baxter went above prosecutors' recommendations of three years imprisonment. He ordered them to serve seven years in prison with the remainder of a 20-year sentence on probation, 2,000 hours of community service and a $25,000 fine.

Lesson here- if you are going to be a cheater- better work on Wall Street. 

[The Captain]

So you approve of giving light sentences to authority figures who intentionally corrupt the very youth they are supposed to be role models for?

They were given multiple chances to accept responsibility.  By imposing a long probationary period I'm presuming that will keep them from ever teaching again.  There may be other reasons though.

Lesson here - the molding destruction of children's values is apparently not important.  Let them off with a wrist slap even after they fail to accept responsibility.

In addition, they cheated these children out of an EDUCATION.  But hey, go ahead and twist it into another anti corporate rant.  That's a stretch even for you.

District Attorney Paul Howard told reporters after sentencing that his goal all along was to get the community to pay attention to what happened in Atlanta schools and to make sure the affected children get some relief.

"We believe the loss that we suffered was a community loss," Howard said.

He said his office is in talks to create the Atlanta Redemption Academy, which he said will seek to identify and assess the students who were hurt by the cheating scandal and to provide solutions for them, including help getting a job or GED training or assistance getting into college.

[happyhoix]

I saw something about this on TV - there were two other people charged in this who took plea deals and got much lighter sentences. One got no jail time at all, just probation, the other got a little jail time - I can't remember if it was six months or 2 years - and then probation for a while longer.

I think what pissed the judge off was that all of the defendents had opportunities to take plea deals and accept responsibility for what they did and wouldn't admit to any fault.

And even the 20 year sentence was not 20 years in jail, I think it was like 5 - 7 years in jail and then the rest of the time was probation.

I'm assuming all of them lose their teaching certificate (hopefully).

From what I understand there was no question of their guilt. They had parties where they got together and corrected the test forms before they were submitted for grading. Hard to explain that kind of thing away. I'm not feeling any sympathy for them. Not happy that the Enron guys mostly skated free, either, though, but that kind of white collar crime always seems to get glossed over.

[b2r]

[Value Buy]

I knew you would eventually get around to this subject.
Let's blame the white judge and the fact the defendants were all black.

These people are setting up the black male students for obvious failure a few years down the road, so they can be shooting victims of white policemen.
They are not exactly helping the black female students either. It is time the public school system starts showing some results with graduation and education rates.
How about mentioning the teacher union members involved in the cheating too.

[Value Buy]

Apr 15, 2015 15:50:25 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I saw something about this on TV - there were two other people charged in this who took plea deals and got much lighter sentences. One got no jail time at all, just probation, the other got a little jail time - I can't remember if it was six months or 2 years - and then probation for a while longer.

I think what pissed the judge off was that all of the defendents had opportunities to take plea deals and accept responsibility for what they did and wouldn't admit to any fault.

And even the 20 year sentence was not 20 years in jail, I think it was like 5 - 7 years in jail and then the rest of the time was probation.

I'm assuming all of them lose their teaching certificate (hopefully).

From what I understand there was no question of their guilt. They had parties where they got together and corrected the test forms before they were submitted for grading. Hard to explain that kind of thing away. I'm not feeling any sympathy for them. Not happy that the Enron guys mostly skated free, either, though, but that kind of white collar crime always seems to get glossed over.

The judge asked all of them to plea deal as the evidence was overwhelmingly against them. He told them the sentence would be much lighter if they did.
Two were smart enough to see the writing on the wall. The others evidently could not read the writing on the wall.

[Robert not Bobby]

This will all be appealed, and the sentences will be greatly reduced...still, it wasn't a victimless crime...the first victims are the kids, second, are the tax payers.

In a way you might say it was fraud and theft...I'm not a lawyer, how much does that get you in Georgia?

[Virgil Showlion]

Go judge!

[Virgil Showlion]

Apr 15, 2015 16:10:06 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

It is time the public school system starts showing some results with graduation and education rates.

They're half way there. High school graduation rates are at an all time high across all racial and household income groups.

Test scores have never been higher either. It's really a- ...

Oh. Right.

[Value Buy]

Apr 15, 2015 16:10:06 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

It is time the public school system starts showing some results with graduation and education rates.

They're half way there. High school graduation rates are at an all time high across all racial and household income groups.

Yep.
That's exactly what the Georgia educators were telling everyone when they falsified the tests answers.
Number two pencil with lots of erasers were used.

[Tennesseer]

The teachers were wrong and this went on for a number of years.  Georgia students completed high school who could barely read and write.  This could have been avoided.

[EVT1]

Apr 15, 2015 16:06:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I knew you would eventually get around to this subject.
Let's blame the white judge and the fact the defendants were all black.

These people are setting up the black male students for obvious failure a few years down the road, so they can be shooting victims of white policemen.
They are not exactly helping the black female students either. It is time the public school system starts showing some results with graduation and education rates.
How about mentioning the teacher union members involved in the cheating too.

That's on you pal- because I have no idea what colors the judge or defendants are. I just heard this on the radio yesterday.

[Value Buy]

Apr 15, 2015 16:49:01 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Apr 15, 2015 16:06:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I knew you would eventually get around to this subject.
Let's blame the white judge and the fact the defendants were all black.

These people are setting up the black male students for obvious failure a few years down the road, so they can be shooting victims of white policemen.
They are not exactly helping the black female students either. It is time the public school system starts showing some results with graduation and education rates.
How about mentioning the teacher union members involved in the cheating too.

That's on you pal- because I have no idea what colors the judge or defendants are. I just heard this on the radio yesterday.

Now you get your quoted sites off your radio?
Incidently, your own website shows the black defendants and the white judge.

[EVT1]

Apr 15, 2015 15:50:25 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I saw something about this on TV - there were two other people charged in this who took plea deals and got much lighter sentences. One got no jail time at all, just probation, the other got a little jail time - I can't remember if it was six months or 2 years - and then probation for a while longer.

I think what pissed the judge off was that all of the defendents had opportunities to take plea deals and accept responsibility for what they did and wouldn't admit to any fault.

And even the 20 year sentence was not 20 years in jail, I think it was like 5 - 7 years in jail and then the rest of the time was probation.

I'm assuming all of them lose their teaching certificate (hopefully).

From what I understand there was no question of their guilt. They had parties where they got together and corrected the test forms before they were submitted for grading. Hard to explain that kind of thing away. I'm not feeling any sympathy for them. Not happy that the Enron guys mostly skated free, either, though, but that kind of white collar crime always seems to get glossed over.

I saw it as coercion by a judge- if you don't take the plea I am going to throw you to the dogs.

But my greater point is- why the hell teachers or administrators in this case are being treated so harshly?  What they did is not much different that what happens on a daily basis in other jobs, or in other companies.  Normally people just get fired.

And of course even 5-7 years in jail paid for by the taxpayers is complete overkill- does it not bother anyone that  violent criminals, rapists, people that killed people get a better deal?  Holy shit- better lock them up before they hurt someone

Not going to be a hypocrite about it either- not a whole lot of good happens locking up white collar assholes either- they are not a danger to society.  What you do with those creeps is confiscate their wealth and leave them working at Walmart for the rest of their lives.  Much better than what I would do to them

[Value Buy]

Apr 15, 2015 16:58:59 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Apr 15, 2015 15:50:25 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I saw something about this on TV - there were two other people charged in this who took plea deals and got much lighter sentences. One got no jail time at all, just probation, the other got a little jail time - I can't remember if it was six months or 2 years - and then probation for a while longer.

I think what pissed the judge off was that all of the defendents had opportunities to take plea deals and accept responsibility for what they did and wouldn't admit to any fault.

And even the 20 year sentence was not 20 years in jail, I think it was like 5 - 7 years in jail and then the rest of the time was probation.

I'm assuming all of them lose their teaching certificate (hopefully).

From what I understand there was no question of their guilt. They had parties where they got together and corrected the test forms before they were submitted for grading. Hard to explain that kind of thing away. I'm not feeling any sympathy for them. Not happy that the Enron guys mostly skated free, either, though, but that kind of white collar crime always seems to get glossed over.

I saw it as coercion by a judge- if you don't take the plea I am going to throw you to the dogs.

But my greater point is- why the hell teachers or administrators in this case are being treated so harshly?  What they did is not much different that what happens on a daily basis in other jobs, or in other companies.  Normally people just get fired.

And of course even 5-7 years in jail paid for by the taxpayers is complete overkill- does it not bother anyone that  violent criminals, rapists, people that killed people get a better deal?  Holy shit- better lock them up before they hurt someone

Not going to be a hypocrite about it either- not a whole lot of good happens locking up white collar assholes either- they are not a danger to society.  What you do with those creeps is confiscate their wealth and leave them working at Walmart for the rest of their lives.  Much better than what I would do to them

I wonder if they get to keep all their pensions and insurance?
Insurance, as in, after they are out of jail.

[EVT1]

Apr 15, 2015 16:52:36 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Apr 15, 2015 16:49:01 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

That's on you pal- because I have no idea what colors the judge or defendants are. I just heard this on the radio yesterday.

Now you get your quoted sites off your radio?
Incidently, your own website shows the black defendants and the white judge.

I was on the road 9 hours yesterday and heard about this through both NPR and local radio. I only posted a link- the first one that popped up that seemed neutral- for reference. 

BTW if I had an angle on this it would not be white judge black defendant- it would be GOP enjoys nailing teachers   That would make more sense- but I don't know anything about the judge- white according to you - OK- is he a Democrat?  You have all the answers right?  I don't know and it doesn't matter.

[Value Buy]

Apr 15, 2015 17:06:12 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Apr 15, 2015 16:52:36 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Now you get your quoted sites off your radio?
Incidently, your own website shows the black defendants and the white judge.

I was on the road 9 hours yesterday and heard about this through both NPR and local radio. I only posted a link- the first one that popped up that seemed neutral- for reference. 

BTW if I had an angle on this it would not be white judge black defendant- it would be GOP enjoys nailing teachers   That would make more sense- but I don't know anything about the judge- white according to you - OK- is he a Democrat?  You have all the answers right?  I don't know and it doesn't matter.

I do not know if Georgia elects or appoints judges and whether it is by political party affiliation under both circumstances.

I do assume they do one or the other.

[EVT1]

So we agree it isn't relevant. What is relevant is the idea that some cheating teacher will end up doing more time than violent criminals.

Look it up- they are so far under the bus that armed robbers will get out of jail before they do. Rapists will get out before they do.

The only more people fucked than they are, are the folks still doing 30 years for selling weed.

[Value Buy]

Apr 15, 2015 17:41:15 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So we agree it isn't relevant. What is relevant is the idea that some cheating teacher will end up doing more time than violent criminals.

Look it up- they are so far under the bus that armed robbers will get out of jail before they do. Rapists will get out before they do.

The only more people fucked than they are, are the folks still doing 30 years for selling weed.

Will I am willing to bet if they are doing 30 years for selling weed, they have been found guilty of the charge more than one time, or caught selling it to undercover cops multiple times..
Some people learn their lesson, others say fuck you, and pay the price by committing the same crime over and over.

[tallguy]

Apr 15, 2015 16:09:06 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Apr 15, 2015 15:50:25 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I saw something about this on TV - there were two other people charged in this who took plea deals and got much lighter sentences. One got no jail time at all, just probation, the other got a little jail time - I can't remember if it was six months or 2 years - and then probation for a while longer.

I think what pissed the judge off was that all of the defendents had opportunities to take plea deals and accept responsibility for what they did and wouldn't admit to any fault.

And even the 20 year sentence was not 20 years in jail, I think it was like 5 - 7 years in jail and then the rest of the time was probation.

I'm assuming all of them lose their teaching certificate (hopefully).

From what I understand there was no question of their guilt. They had parties where they got together and corrected the test forms before they were submitted for grading. Hard to explain that kind of thing away. I'm not feeling any sympathy for them. Not happy that the Enron guys mostly skated free, either, though, but that kind of white collar crime always seems to get glossed over.

The judge asked all of them to plea deal as the evidence was overwhelmingly against them. He told them the sentence would be much lighter if they did.
Two were smart enough to see the writing on the wall. The others evidently could not read the writing on the wall.

Maybe if those others hadn't been the product of a school system engaged in such cheating they could have?    

[happyhoix]

Apr 15, 2015 16:29:40 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Good article on the topic: 



www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/eight-atlanta-educators-in-test-cheating-case-sentenced-to-prison/2015/04/14/08a9d26e-e2bc-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html

Critics of standardized testing say cheating is a result of the consequences that policymakers have attached to scores, from closing schools for poor performance to offering merit bonuses to teachers whose students do well.

When the Atlanta educators were convicted this month, the Rev. Bernice King, daughter of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., said they were “victims of a corrupt education system,” and she called for leniency and no jail time.
“Teachers are under tremendous pressure to meet standards and ensure that students pass tests, even to the extent that their jobs, their livelihoods may be threatened,” King said in a statement.

But others, including many in the civil rights movement, defend standardized testing as crucial for ensuring that public schools serve all students, including poor and minority children.

“It’s true that there are too many tests and many of them are redundant and unnecessary. But the basic annual statewide assessments that provide comparable achievement data across a given state, that’s very important,” said Deborah Veney of the nonprofit Education Trust. “Without things like that, we have kids who are valedictorians and end up in remedial ed. That’s a justice issue.”

I'm not a teacher but I have a lot of friends as teachers and while I don't have an opinion on the whole 'no child left behind' test, it isn't popular with teachers because they don't like being forced to 'teach to the test.' And there is apparently no exclusions for kids who are special needs or aren't English speakers, they're expected to take and pass the test along with the rest of the students. There have been complaints, with our own school system, that kids who are underperforming are encouraged by the teachers to drop out, because they're dragging the school test averages down. An unfortunate unintended consequence. 

I understand the argument, too, that if you're a middle school teacher and you get a classroom of kids that never should have been promoted in the first place, it's hard to get them testing at a high level by the end of the year. Should you be judged on how poorly you do, or how poorly the teachers in the previous years did with these kids? Additionally, teachers can't control if the kids even show up for class, or are awake and fed when they get there, and it's hard to instill learning on kids who aren't there.  

I think rather than focusing on test grades and closing schools that fail to get certain test scores we should be doing a better job of judging each teacher directly - providing more mentoring and oversight to new teachers in the profession, and then sending in observers to witness their class room skills periodically. Remove the crappy teachers. That would do more to improve education than just looking at test scores. But this would be pretty much impossible to impliment because 1) teachers unions wouldn't allow it - they make it hard to fire teachers and 2) it's a whole lot cheaper to administer a test to all the students than to send someone into all the classrooms to observe all the teachers.   

I'm not defending what these Atlanta teachers did at all. Better to have let the test scores remain bad and have the schools shut down and reorganize than lie and pretend the kids are improving. But I don't think judging the teachers only on how the kids test is really the best way to improve education. After all, if you're a teacher, why would you ever want to go to work in a badly performing school? That leaves those schools to be taught by teachers who couldn't find jobs at the better schools - and we don't want the worst teachers in those schools, we want the best ones there.

[Deleted]

Apr 15, 2015 14:58:46 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Lesson here- if you are going to be a cheater- better work on Wall Street. 

The problem isn't that these guys got punished, it's that wall street didn't.

[happyhoix]

Apr 15, 2015 17:41:15 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So we agree it isn't relevant. What is relevant is the idea that some cheating teacher will end up doing more time than violent criminals.

Look it up- they are so far under the bus that armed robbers will get out of jail before they do. Rapists will get out before they do.

The only more people fucked than they are, are the folks still doing 30 years for selling weed.

I talked to DH last night (he works in the legal system) and he said these might get dropped on appeal, but even if they don't, typically in GA they would serve half of their jail term and then get parole, and when the parole is over they serve the probation.

So for instance the person who got 20 years, with 7 of them jail time, he would actually serve, worst case, about 3.5 years in jail, 3.5 on parole and 13 years on probation.

[fairlycrazy23]

It is bad what they did, but it does seem extremely harsh for there crimes. Fines, community service, limited jail time and probation seems more appropriate for non-violent crimes.

But my biggest gripe isn't specifically about this case, but that plea bargaining has corrupted our justice system.