Another example of why personal responsibility "is not the

[Value Buy]

problem".

It is always someone else's responsibility or fault.
A stolen electric meter, person is not a registered utility customer at the location, and yet the family says how is he supposed to pay for the electric on a minimum wage job.
Yes a tragic result.
Terrible.
But why hadn't other family members stepped in and helped?
Why is it someone else's responsibility?


www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/8-deaths-in-home-bring-scrutiny-of-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/ar-AAazMZI

[Value Buy]

from the article:
www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/8-deaths-in-home-bring-scrutiny-of-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/ar-AAazMZI

PRINCESS ANNE, Md. (AP) — Utility regulators and police are trying to determine what could have been done to prevent the deaths of a man and his seven children who died of carbon monoxide poisoning from a generator installed after their home's power had been disconnected.

Officials from Maryland's public utility regulator say they are looking into what happened, while Princess Anne police have subpoenaed the power company to document exactly what steps it took and when.

Power company officials said they encourage residents who are having trouble paying their bills to contact them, but that Rodney Todd had not done so.

Todd, 36, and his children were poisoned in their sleep only days after the power company discovered a stolen meter and cut off electricity to their rental home, police said. Delmarva Power said it cut off power for safety reasons on March 25, not because the family was behind on its bills, as family members previously had said.

With the power out, Todd had bought the generator and put it in his kitchen to keep his two sons and five daughters warm. Friends and relatives last saw them alive March 28.

"Probably it was bedtime and they decided they needed some light and probably some heat, because toward the end of March even though it was spring we were having some pretty chilly nights," Princess Anne police Chief Scott Keller said.

Police found their bodies Monday inside the one-story, wood-frame home on Maryland's Eastern Shore after school workers, friends and the father's co-workers knocked on the door with no answer.

"I'm just numb. Like it's a nightmare but it's not," the children's mother, Tyisha Luneice Chambers, told The Associated Press on Tuesday. "If I had known he was without electricity, I would have helped."

She said relatives would meet Wednesday to plan their funerals.

Why Todd had a generator running indoors wasn't clear. The chief speculated that if it had been outside, the noise would have bothered neighbors. He ruled out foul play.

Matt Likovich, a spokesman for Delmarva Power, said the utility was not contacted after the illegal meter was removed. "We had no record of who was living there," Likovich said. "There was no way to determine what their situation was."

Likovich said customers are encouraged to contact the utility if they are having difficulty paying their bill. He said there are options for such customers, including partnerships with social service agencies. But, he said, the customers "have to contact us."

Todd had received assistance with utility bills in the past but did not apply for help this year, said Tom VanLandingham, who directs the Office of Home Energy Programs in Somerset County.

Although Todd received some welfare money, it wasn't enough to pay the bills, his close friend Sarah Hardy said.

"How can a man survive off of basically minimum wage with seven kids, and you can't help him with a utility bill?" Hardy said. "This man was working. And Delmarva Power cuts the lights off?"

[mmhmm]

Need a link for that article, Value Buy. It's a matter of copyright. Thanks.

mmhmm, Administrator

ETA:   I see a link in the OP. Is that the link from which the article is taken? If so, may I add it to the quoted article, please?

[Shooby]

He could have bought a CO2 detector too.

[Value Buy]

The article was from the original post.
I thought I had it covered in post two, with,
"from the article:"

Sorry.

[mmhmm]

Thanks, Value Buy. I wasn't sure it was the right link.

[Opti]

Apr 8, 2015 11:38:07 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

problem".

It is always someone else's responsibility or fault.
A stolen electric meter, person is not a registered utility customer at the location, and yet the family says how is he supposed to pay for the electric on a minimum wage job.
Yes a tragic result.
Terrible.
But why hadn't other family members stepped in and helped?
Why is it someone else's responsibility?


www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/8-deaths-in-home-bring-scrutiny-of-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/ar-AAazMZI

Maybe its just a bad situation and people are blaming each other.

The utility said he should have applied for assistance and Mom said he didn't

let her know how bad things were. Maybe I'm missing something but at least two

parties seem to be putting blame on dead Dad.

[Tennesseer]

My city's untility company will not shut off utilities during the winter and summer months.  But you must ask.  The utility company is not a mind reader.

A very unfortunste end for all.

[EVT1]

So what about this:

     Todd, 36, and his children were poisoned in their sleep only days after the power company discovered a stolen meter and cut off electricity to their rental home, police said. Delmarva Power said it cut off power for safety reasons on March 25, not because the family was behind on its bills, as family members previously had said.

So the plot thickens- isn't the landlord responsible for the meter?  Was electric included in the rent?  Many unanswered questions.

[Value Buy]

Apr 8, 2015 20:26:35 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So what about this:

     Todd, 36, and his children were poisoned in their sleep only days after the power company discovered a stolen meter and cut off electricity to their rental home, police said. Delmarva Power said it cut off power for safety reasons on March 25, not because the family was behind on its bills, as family members previously had said.

So the plot thickens- isn't the landlord responsible for the meter?  Was electric included in the rent?  Many unanswered questions.

EVT, unless they had a few starving puppies, to concern you, you do not have to worry about "the man" holding them down.

[EVT1]

Apr 8, 2015 22:25:00 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Apr 8, 2015 20:26:35 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So what about this:

     Todd, 36, and his children were poisoned in their sleep only days after the power company discovered a stolen meter and cut off electricity to their rental home, police said. Delmarva Power said it cut off power for safety reasons on March 25, not because the family was behind on its bills, as family members previously had said.

So the plot thickens- isn't the landlord responsible for the meter?  Was electric included in the rent?  Many unanswered questions.

EVT, unless they had a few starving puppies, to concern you, you do not have to worry about "the man" holding them down.

You teed off with the assertion of personal responsibility gone awry- and considering all of these questions I though it would be fair to get the facts first before you throw the dad under the bus- a dad that was working a job and caring for a lot of kids mind you- not the deadbeat kind.  That kind of sounds like personal responsibility to me- that ended up in a tragedy.

So do you not think the questions I raised are important? 

[Value Buy]

Apr 8, 2015 23:20:12 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Apr 8, 2015 22:25:00 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

EVT, unless they had a few starving puppies, to concern you, you do not have to worry about "the man" holding them down.

You teed off with the assertion of personal responsibility gone awry- and considering all of these questions I though it would be fair to get the facts first before you throw the dad under the bus- a dad that was working a job and caring for a lot of kids mind you- not the deadbeat kind.  That kind of sounds like personal responsibility to me- that ended up in a tragedy.

So do you not think the questions I raised are important? 

No, not when you state you would feed a starving animal rather than a baby.
You lost all credibility with me.

[happyhoix]

That is a good question - did the landlord pay the electric bill as part of the rent?  I assume it was the landlord that installed the illegal meter.  Possibly the dad was waiting for the landlord to straighten all that out with the power board, and get a legal meter installed so the power could be turned back on.

Unfortunate that the dad didn't understand the hazards of running a generator in the house - but he was living in the home with his kids, working a job to try to support them, concerned enough about their welfare to get a generator to try to keep them warm at night - I don't think it's fair to bash him now.

[Value Buy]

Apr 9, 2015 8:45:37 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

That is a good question - did the landlord pay the electric bill as part of the rent?  I assume it was the landlord that installed the illegal meter.  Possibly the dad was waiting for the landlord to straighten all that out with the power board, and get a legal meter installed so the power could be turned back on.

Unfortunate that the dad didn't understand the hazards of running a generator in the house - but he was living in the home with his kids, working a job to try to support them, concerned enough about their welfare to get a generator to try to keep them warm at night - I don't think it's fair to bash him now.

Why do you assume the landlord installed an illegal meter?

[Value Buy]

And now a word from his ex-wife and mother of the children.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/mom-who-lost-seven-kids-%E2%80%98when-they-told-me-i-felt-like-i-died%E2%80%99/ar-AAaCli5

[The Captain]

Apr 8, 2015 20:26:35 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So what about this:

     Todd, 36, and his children were poisoned in their sleep only days after the power company discovered a stolen meter and cut off electricity to their rental home, police said. Delmarva Power said it cut off power for safety reasons on March 25, not because the family was behind on its bills, as family members previously had said.

So the plot thickens- isn't the landlord responsible for the meter?  Was electric included in the rent?  Many unanswered questions.

Yet another it's someone elses' fault.

As a landlord (and I like to think a pretty conscientious one) I will tell you either DH and I visit our properties once a month.  We do a quick inspection (furnace filters, smoke detector and CO2 detectors working, water heater not leaking) and ask the tenants if there are any problems.  We always have extra batteries because at least one will have had the batteries taken out for (fill in the blank).

I guarantee you I am not checking to make sure the tenant did not install an illegal meter.   I also do not check to make sure they spliced some wires or outlets illegally or made other unallowed modifications.  It's a reasonable expectation of decent human behavior and I don't consider my tenants to be anything other than decent people.

On all our properties tenants are responsible for all utilities except water.  That is very common in my area.

Yes, if I knew there was a problem with the meter I'd get it fixed, but to expect a landlord to inspect the property and be on the lookout for every possible illegal act is just plain ridiculous.

I would also suspect that if the landlord was responsible for the electric it would be paid on time or the tenant would be calling the local free legal aid group. 

ETA - I also have to question what was going on. If electricity was cut off because of something the landlord did you better believe the tenants should have been on the phone to them right away. The one time we had an issue that made a unit uninhabitable we put the tenants up in a hotel until the issue got resolved.

[Tennesseer]

My utility company has a voluntary program where a customer'total bill will be rounded up to the next dollar. For example, if my total bill is $249.01, it is rolled up to $250. The change goes to help folks like this unfortunate family (the kids especially). It is very easy for me to contribute and for a good reason.

Other utility companies have an optional voluntary $1 donation for the same purpose.

[Value Buy]

Apr 9, 2015 9:55:25 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

My utility company has a voluntary program where a customer'total bill will be rounded up to the next dollar. For example, if my total bill is $249.01, it is rolled up to $250. The change goes to help folks like this unfortunate family (the kids especially). It is very easy for me to contribute and for a good reason.

Other utility companies have an optional voluntary $1 donation for the same purpose.

Ours does the same, but I am not sure how "voluntary" it is, as the bill lists it in the total bill.
We have no problem helping others out, and what makes it even better, I assume it helps anyone regardless of skin color, or religious affiliation.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Dang....this makes me too heartsick to even think about placing blame.  I sure hope they just went quietly to sleep.  I don't know much about carbon monoxide poisoning. 

[Tennesseer]

Apr 9, 2015 10:04:35 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Dang....this makes me too heartsick to even think about placing blame.  I sure hope they just went quietly to sleep.  I don't know much about carbon monoxide poisoning. 

GEL-if it happened while they were asleep, and I believe that was the case, they peacefully slipped away. No pain.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 9, 2015 10:01:38 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Apr 9, 2015 9:55:25 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

My utility company has a voluntary program where a customer'total bill will be rounded up to the next dollar. For example, if my total bill is $249.01, it is rolled up to $250. The change goes to help folks like this unfortunate family (the kids especially). It is very easy for me to contribute and for a good reason.

Other utility companies have an optional voluntary $1 donation for the same purpose.

Ours does the same, but I am not sure how "voluntary" it is, as the bill lists it in the total bill.
We have no problem helping others out, and what makes it even better, I assume it helps anyone regardless of skin color, or religious affiliation.

It is completely voluntary here. I can stop any time. And it is listed on my bill-the individual charges and donation must add up to the total monthly bill.

[Deleted]

Apr 9, 2015 9:48:28 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Apr 8, 2015 20:26:35 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So what about this:

     Todd, 36, and his children were poisoned in their sleep only days after the power company discovered a stolen meter and cut off electricity to their rental home, police said. Delmarva Power said it cut off power for safety reasons on March 25, not because the family was behind on its bills, as family members previously had said.

So the plot thickens- isn't the landlord responsible for the meter?  Was electric included in the rent?  Many unanswered questions.

Yet another it's someone elses' fault.

As a landlord (and I like to think a pretty conscientious one) I will tell you either DH and I visit our properties once a month.  We do a quick inspection (furnace filters, smoke detector and CO2 detectors working, water heater not leaking) and ask the tenants if there are any problems.  We always have extra batteries because at least one will have had the batteries taken out for (fill in the blank).

I guarantee you I am not checking to make sure the tenant did not install an illegal meter.   I also do not check to make sure they spliced some wires or outlets illegally or made other unallowed modifications.  It's a reasonable expectation of decent human behavior and I don't consider my tenants to be anything other than decent people.

On all our properties tenants are responsible for all utilities except water.  That is very common in my area.

Yes, if I knew there was a problem with the meter I'd get it fixed, but to expect a landlord to inspect the property and be on the lookout for every possible illegal act is just plain ridiculous.

I would also suspect that if the landlord was responsible for the electric it would be paid on time or the tenant would be calling the local free legal aid group. 

ETA - I also have to question what was going on. If electricity was cut off because of something the landlord did you better believe the tenants should have been on the phone to them right away. The one time we had an issue that made a unit uninhabitable we put the tenants up in a hotel until the issue got resolved.

Given the series of event as I understand them, I can see it being either the landlord or the father who installed the stolen panel.  I don't think anyone is blaming the landlord because he didn't notice a stolen panel, but suspecting him of installing the stolen panel.

First the father didn't know enough about generators to not run one in the kitchen, but somehow got a stolen panel hooked up to his rental house.  It is possible that he managed it or knew someone.  Or he could have been told electric was included.

Second there weren't any late bills.  There were no bills at all, because according to the electric company, there wasn't any power going to that house.  Power was disconnected in October, presumably when the last occupants moved out.  This family moves into the house in November and service was never started.  Father never signs up for power assistance, which he had at his last residence. In March the power company notices the stolen power and disconnects it. 

[The Captain]

Apr 9, 2015 10:32:16 GMT -5 pooks said:

Apr 9, 2015 9:48:28 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Yet another it's someone elses' fault.

Given the series of event as I understand them, I can see it being either the landlord or the father who installed the stolen panel.  I don't think anyone is blaming the landlord because he didn't notice a stolen panel, but suspecting him of installing the stolen panel.

First the father didn't know enough about generators to not run one in the kitchen, but somehow got a stolen panel hooked up to his rental house.  It is possible that he managed it or knew someone.  Or he could have been told electric was included.

Second there weren't any late bills.  There were no bills at all, because according to the electric company, there wasn't any power going to that house.  Power was disconnected in October, presumably when the last occupants moved out.  This family moves into the house in November and service is never started.  Father never signs up for power assistance, which he had at his last residence. In March the power company notices the stolen power and disconnects it. 

I understand what you're saying, but there is just so much about this that doesn't make sense.  Like, if the father knew about the power assistance program why didn't he sign up for it here?

Why would the landlord put in an illegal box if the tenant was responsible for the power (as they are in almost all cases that I'm familiar with)?

Maybe it's different in that part of the country but around here you NEVER hear about anyone messing with water, gas or electric meters.  I can only guess because there are some pretty hefty penalties involved (I'm involved with a real estate investors group so we hear all kinds of stories, but nothing like this).

[justme]

It seems unlikely that the ll would suddenly install a stolen meter if previously renters were paying for electricity. And it seems odd not to question how you're getting power but don't get billed if the lease didn't say it was included.

[happyhoix]

Apr 9, 2015 9:35:04 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Apr 9, 2015 8:45:37 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

That is a good question - did the landlord pay the electric bill as part of the rent?  I assume it was the landlord that installed the illegal meter.  Possibly the dad was waiting for the landlord to straighten all that out with the power board, and get a legal meter installed so the power could be turned back on.

Unfortunate that the dad didn't understand the hazards of running a generator in the house - but he was living in the home with his kids, working a job to try to support them, concerned enough about their welfare to get a generator to try to keep them warm at night - I don't think it's fair to bash him now.

Why do you assume the landlord installed an illegal meter?

Because I assume for a landlord to offer a property for rent, legally, it would have to meet certain city codes, including having a legal and operational electrical system, and because there would be a certain skill level involved in removing a legal meter and installing an illegal one - this guy worked in a commercial kitchen. If he had electrical skills no doubt he would have earned a lot more money as an electrician.

Although yes I suppose he could have paid a buddy to come over and remove the legal one and install the illegal one, if the dad was the one paying the electric bills.

Which is why it would be interesting to know if the landlord paid the electric bill or the renter did - it would show who had the motivation to install the illegal meter.

[Angel!]

I feel horrible for the family, but my opinion is there is no one to blame but the father. He made the horrible decision to run a generator indoor.

[zibazinski]

I'm a LL and I don't pay any of my tenants utilities. I wouldn't even know unless told that something was being done illegaly. I assume my tenants get the utilities put in their name but don't know. I inspect but then again, I rent to people with jobs that can afford to pay rent and utilities. If the LL didn't screen properly, that is concerning as far as rent not being paid and the house being trashed. All else is on the tenant.

[Tiny]

Apr 9, 2015 10:50:53 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Apr 9, 2015 9:35:04 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Why do you assume the landlord installed an illegal meter?

Because I assume for a landlord to offer a property for rent, legally, it would have to meet certain city codes, including having a legal and operational electrical system, and because there would be a certain skill level involved in removing a legal meter and installing an illegal one - this guy worked in a commercial kitchen. If he had electrical skills no doubt he would have earned a lot more money as an electrician.

Although yes I suppose he could have paid a buddy to come over and remove the legal one and install the illegal one, if the dad was the one paying the electric bills.

Which is why it would be interesting to know if the landlord paid the electric bill or the renter did - it would show who had the motivation to install the illegal meter.

He didn't have POWER  he didn't have a "legal" meter that was working - the electric company cut him off a long time ago.
Sometime - probably a year or less ago - someone took the meter from a vacant house and installed it on this guys house - thus reconnecting the power. which generated NO BILL.    I'm guessing at this - because the Utility is saying in past years the guy had signed up for their assistance program and this winter/year he did not.  My guess he didn't sign up again because he had power - FREE POWER - and didn't want to call attention to it.
 
FWIW:  I suspect the guy is not up to date on his rent either.   The landlord might be absent or a slum lord - and just not care if the electric service is paid for or not.


I don't think the Utility is at fault... nor is the landlord.   They may be at fault for other things but not the death of this family.    

[Tiny]

Apr 9, 2015 10:04:35 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Dang....this makes me too heartsick to even think about placing blame.  I sure hope they just went quietly to sleep.  I don't know much about carbon monoxide poisoning. 

If you are conscious - and far enough along with little oxigyn - you'd experience a headache and maybe nausea - and then woozy.    If everyone was asleep odds are they had no idea what was happening.  If someone did wake up during it they may not have been able to get the others to wake up or to get themselves out of the house.   


I wonder if this was a murder/suicide?   I would think that very shortly after starting the generator the fumes would have sent everyone outside coughing and feeling woozy pretty quickly if they had been awake and getting ready for bed.   

The C02 from your furnance chimney is alot less noticable...  a gas generator spits out alot of 'car exhaust' like fumes....      

[happyhoix]

Apr 9, 2015 12:33:07 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Apr 9, 2015 10:50:53 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Because I assume for a landlord to offer a property for rent, legally, it would have to meet certain city codes, including having a legal and operational electrical system, and because there would be a certain skill level involved in removing a legal meter and installing an illegal one - this guy worked in a commercial kitchen. If he had electrical skills no doubt he would have earned a lot more money as an electrician.

Although yes I suppose he could have paid a buddy to come over and remove the legal one and install the illegal one, if the dad was the one paying the electric bills.

Which is why it would be interesting to know if the landlord paid the electric bill or the renter did - it would show who had the motivation to install the illegal meter.

He didn't have POWER  he didn't have a "legal" meter that was working - the electric company cut him off a long time ago.
Sometime - probably a year or less ago - someone took the meter from a vacant house and installed it on this guys house - thus reconnecting the power. which generated NO BILL.    I'm guessing at this - because the Utility is saying in past years the guy had signed up for their assistance program and this winter/year he did not.  My guess he didn't sign up again because he had power - FREE POWER - and didn't want to call attention to it.
 
FWIW:  I suspect the guy is not up to date on his rent either.   The landlord might be absent or a slum lord - and just not care if the electric service is paid for or not.


I don't think the Utility is at fault... nor is the landlord.   They may be at fault for other things but not the death of this family.    

I agree - IF the guy was responsible for paying his own utilities.

I have seen some places where all or some of the utilities are combined in the rent. If the landlord is less than honorable, when the last family moved out, the LL might have decided to improve his profit by having an illegal electrical meter installed and advertising the apartment had utilities included. No electrical bills, more profit for him. Renter isn't any the wiser (I couldn't tell an illegal box from a legal one). Then the power company gets wind of it, renter complains to the LL that the power has been turned off, because as far as he knows, the LL was supposed to be paying the bill.

We don't know, at this point, what the deal was - who was supposed to be paying the electric bill, and who was trying to cheat the power board.  However, that doesn't matter as much as the fact that the dad used a generator inside the house - that was the cause of death, and that was due to dad's ignorance.