One Mistake Can Be Fatal.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 16, 2015 23:18:22 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Mar 16, 2015 20:00:22 GMT -5 Malarky said:

I've mentioned this in other threads.

There is no way to guarantee no cross contamination.  Chances are that every know allergen is in that kitchen, and despite their best efforts humans touch one thing and then another.  And how thoroughly could a grill be cleaned in the middle of a breakfast shift?

It can't....if it's like the grill I used to cook on.  You have to let the grill cool, pour on the special grill cleaning solution, scrub it thoroughly, rinse it like 5 times and then reheat it.  Total time?  A pretty good estimate is 20-25 minutes on an industrial sized grill.  People just aren't going to do that between orders.  They may make a quick wipe down but that won't be sufficient to get rid of all traces of everything.

It doesn't even matter how realistic cleaning the grill is.

An intelligent family with a deathly allergic son says, "Oh, you use dairy on the grill. He'll just have a salad then."

A slightly less intelligent family says, "We'll take the risk that you know the batter ingredients precisely and that the grill and cooking instruments are properly cleaned since we have our emergency equipment here with us."

A family who's son was doomed to a very short lifespan by his family's decision-making abilities says, "Sure, we'll point that revolver with one dairy-filled bullet at our son's head and pull the trigger. We didn't bring any of his emergency meds with us, so what's the worst that could happen?"

[Deleted]

Do menus have disclaimers on them like so much of our packaged food does regarding allergens?

I really don't know as I don't have any food allergies.

They probably should do that if they haven't already.

[Angel!]

What the article doesn't say is if it was dairy in the pancakes or a cross contamination. The restaurant may have done the best could could or they might have fucked up and not identified dairy in the mix. You really have to judge your servers confidence because I have had ones that will say 'oh yeah, dairy free' then with more questions you realize they literally only mean no milk or cheese is added, but it is cooked in butter or something. A good restaurant can easily just cook that order in a separate pan if the grill can't be cleaned. Hu hot will clean the grill right there in front of you. I don't like them for other reasons, but they are very aware when cooking for food allergies.

IMO, it is kind of like getting in a car wreck. It may be someone else's fault, but if my kids aren't wearing their seatbelt, that is my fault.

I'm also curious if they had benadryl or absolutely no meds. If they didn't even have benedryl and still opted to drive home, they are idiots.

[Shooby]

OK, let's assume it is 100% the restaurant's fault. Ok. And, their child is still Dead. So, not sure what the blame laying accomplishes? Does that make them feel better somehow? Does that ease their conscience for not having the sense to travel with an epi pen?  What does it matter where to lay blame? If this was your child, do you really find it logical to leave your child's LETHAL medical condition solely in the hands of someone you don't know, who has no medical training whatsoever, who doesn't understand the difference between a gluten allergy or a peanut allergy or just a food preference? Who doesn't even have the word Anaphylaxis in their personal vocabulary?

[Wisconsin Beth]

The link said the family was known by name at the restaurant - I interpret that to mean that they eat there enough that the issues are known, accepted and dealt with. I bet the staff feels just awful. 

ETA to fix spelling.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Mar 17, 2015 3:15:04 GMT -5 @xmascookie said:

Do menus have disclaimers on them like so much of our packaged food does regarding allergens?

I really don't know as I don't have any food allergies.

They probably should do that if they haven't already.

The places we eat at have notes indicating what can be made gluten free or what is vegan.  Sometimes both.  Several places keep a fryer for gluten free foods only. 

I guess I'm assuming that the restaurant wouldn't do the grill cleaning but would have made the pancakes in a pan.  yeah, it's more of a PITA but apparently less of one than scrubbing the grill down. 

DH is gluten and dairy free.  Gluten really isn't a problem anymore.  It's the dairy that's hard.  People cook with butter.  And casein is in so many things.

[Opti]

FWIW, as a person who avoids dairy, salads are not necessarily a good choice.

Depends if they are pre-packaged, pre-made, whether they put preservatives on them,

plus the issue it is highly likely some or most of their salads have dairy in the

way of cheese or croutons. So you have the cross contamination risk usually.

Dairy and wheat/gluten are very hard things to avoid in general.

Trying to avoid them at a restaurant because you are deathly allergic seems

like Russian roulette to me. (Chinese restaurants, vegan or kosher might work

to avoid dairy, but generally way too risky.)

ETA: 'to avoid dairy' for clarity.

[hoops902]

Mar 16, 2015 22:42:51 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Eh, I blame the restaurant as much as the parents.  If I was the server or cook and someone told me that someone had a severe allergy, then I would tell them to play it safe and order a salad or something.  Why would you tell them it's ok if you're unsure?

That said, I wouldn't leave it up to chance like the parents did in this case.  If we forgot the medication and were about to order food in a restaurant, I'd skip the meal.  

In the article linked I don't see anything about the family claiming he had a severe or life-threatening allergy.  I see that mom asked if the pancakes were dairy-free, and telling the waitstaff that the grill needed to be cleaned.  That is not the same as "my kid is going to die if he comes within 100 yards of dairy".  That could easily be "my kid is lactose intolerant".  They could have cleaned the grill, put his pancakes down, and then put down the other food.  Even the family in the article isn't saying they made it clear just how dire his allergy was. 

If his allergy is that severe, it could also easily be that the pancakes are dairy free, but that they got contaminated in any number of ways in the kitchen with some kind of dairy product.  I don't think it's a restaurant's job to play doctor.  These parents seem massively irresponsible to the point of negligent to know their kid has such a severe allergy that could kill him and not bring along the appropriate medical supplies.

[Deleted]

Chinese and gluten.., good Luck unless they know gluten and do gluten free routinely.

[Opti]

Mar 17, 2015 10:21:28 GMT -5 oped said:

Chinese and gluten.., good Luck unless they know gluten and do gluten free routinely.

Sorry oped, I didn't write clearly. My suggestions were only for avoiding dairy

not gluten.

[Shooby]

Mar 17, 2015 8:08:29 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

The link said the family was known by name at the restaurant - I interpret that to mean that they eat there enough that the issues are known, accepted and dealt with. I bet the staff feels just awful. 

ETA to fix spelling.

So what? You think they are thinking about training every new wait staff on that particular family? 

[Shooby]

I find it interesting the family would try to hold someone MORE accountable then themselves. But, not surprised in the day and age of shirking one's own responsibilities.

[Ryan]

Mar 17, 2015 9:37:53 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Mar 16, 2015 22:42:51 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Eh, I blame the restaurant as much as the parents.  If I was the server or cook and someone told me that someone had a severe allergy, then I would tell them to play it safe and order a salad or something.  Why would you tell them it's ok if you're unsure?

That said, I wouldn't leave it up to chance like the parents did in this case.  If we forgot the medication and were about to order food in a restaurant, I'd skip the meal.  

In the article linked I don't see anything about the family claiming he had a severe or life-threatening allergy.  I see that mom asked if the pancakes were dairy-free, and telling the waitstaff that the grill needed to be cleaned.  That is not the same as "my kid is going to die if he comes within 100 yards of dairy".  That could easily be "my kid is lactose intolerant".  They could have cleaned the grill, put his pancakes down, and then put down the other food.  Even the family in the article isn't saying they made it clear just how dire his allergy was. 

If his allergy is that severe, it could also easily be that the pancakes are dairy free, but that they got contaminated in any number of ways in the kitchen with some kind of dairy product.  I don't think it's a restaurant's job to play doctor.  These parents seem massively irresponsible to the point of negligent to know their kid has such a severe allergy that could kill him and not bring along the appropriate medical supplies.

I don't know if a 400 word news article would give you the whole story/conversation between the mom and the waitress.  I just find it hard to believe that she casually asks about the dairy without mentioning the severe allergy.  

Like I said, very hard to understand why you'd take the risk in a restaurant, esp. when you don't have the medicine., but what can you do.

[Ryan]

Mar 17, 2015 10:44:03 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I find it interesting the family would try to hold someone MORE accountable then themselves. But, not surprised in the day and age of shirking one's own responsibilities.

More accountable?  I think they were already held accountable when they lost their kid.  They are probably just trying to bankrupt the restaurant to send a message that they need to also take responsibility.

This isn't about money...how much money could a "Minnesota Nice" possibly have.  It's about holding restaurants accountable.  

[hoops902]

Mar 17, 2015 11:46:35 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Mar 17, 2015 10:44:03 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I find it interesting the family would try to hold someone MORE accountable then themselves. But, not surprised in the day and age of shirking one's own responsibilities.

More accountable?  I think they were already held accountable when they lost their kid.  They are probably just trying to bankrupt the restaurant to send a message that they need to also take responsibility.

This isn't about money...how much money could a "Minnesota Nice" possibly have.  It's about holding restaurants accountable.  

I agree it isn't about money.  It's about trying to deflect their negligence by suing someone.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

More accountable? I think they were already held accountable when they lost their kid. They are probably just trying to bankrupt the restaurant to send a message that they need to also take responsibility.

This isn't about money...how much money could a "Minnesota Nice" possibly have. It's about holding restaurants accountable.

Why does the restaurant need to be held accountable? And why do they need to take responsibility for the health concerns/life-threatening medical conditions of their patrons?

The restaurant is in the business to serve food. If a diner has such a severe allergic condition that they need to constantly be on guard about not coming in contact with certain foods, or cross-contamination issues, isn't it THEIR responsibility to take precautions? It's not the restaurant's or the restaurant staff's job.

The diner or other members of his family also were not in possession of or carrying his needed Epipen/meds with them.

Why should that be the restaurant's responsibility or blame? It isn't.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 17, 2015 11:46:35 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Mar 17, 2015 10:44:03 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I find it interesting the family would try to hold someone MORE accountable then themselves. But, not surprised in the day and age of shirking one's own responsibilities.

More accountable?  I think they were already held accountable when they lost their kid.  They are probably just trying to bankrupt the restaurant to send a message that they need to also take responsibility.

This isn't about money...how much money could a "Minnesota Nice" possibly have.  It's about holding restaurants accountable. 

It's about punishing the restaurant and attempting to validate their mistaken belief that they (the parents) aren't to blame for their son's death.

Suing the restaurant won't accomplish a bloody thing, and I find it hard to believe they don't know that.

[ArchietheDragon]

Epi pens will soon be legally required to be stocked on site at any restaurant or eating establishment.

[justme]

Until they mistakenly give it to someone not suffering an allergic reaction and kill them.

[zibazinski]

Even my students who were special needs carried their own epi pens at grade 3. Before that, they handed them to me. 

[zibazinski]

Epi pens won't kill you if you're not having an allergic reaction. Still you call 911 immediately while administering it.

[justme]

Mar 17, 2015 12:24:19 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Epi pens won't kill you if you're not having an allergic reaction. Still you call 911 immediately while administering it.

It's a rather large dose of adrenaline. It causes you heart beat to increase and blood pressure to increase, among other things. Part of the reason you still cause an ambulance is because of the downsides of shooting yourself up with epinephrine. I don't know how likely it is to kill, but a sudden burst of it when you don't need it could have dire consequences.

[zibazinski]

It could but it won't kill you. I was told better safe than sorry. 

[Angel!]

Mar 17, 2015 12:03:36 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

More accountable? I think they were already held accountable when they lost their kid. They are probably just trying to bankrupt the restaurant to send a message that they need to also take responsibility.

This isn't about money...how much money could a "Minnesota Nice" possibly have. It's about holding restaurants accountable.

Why does the restaurant need to be held accountable? And why do they need to take responsibility for the health concerns/life-threatening medical conditions of their patrons?

The restaurant is in the business to serve food. If a diner has such a severe allergic condition that they need to constantly be on guard about not coming in contact with certain foods, or cross-contamination issues, isn't it THEIR responsibility to take precautions? It's not the restaurant's or the restaurant staff's job.

The diner or other members of his family also were not in possession of or carrying his needed Epipen/meds with them.

Why should that be the restaurant's responsibility or blame? It isn't.

Depends on what actually happened.  I can envision a situation where I absolutely lay blame with the restaurant.  If the family was very clear on the allergy & the restaurant went & fed him pancakes with whey in the ingredients after claiming they were dairy-free, then the restaurant is absolutely at fault. 

There is a massive difference between lying about checking ingredients & accidental cross-contamination.  So IMO it really depends on what made him sick & communication between the family/server/chef regarding the allergy.

[justme]

Better safe than sorry if you think you have an allergic reaction, if it's been prescribed to you by a doctor that knows your history. In a health adult it will cause problems. In an adult with heart issues and on certain medications it can cause fatal arrhythmia. It's right there in the prescribing label.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Depends on what actually happened. I can envision a situation where I absolutely lay blame with the restaurant. If the family was very clear on the allergy & the restaurant went & fed him pancakes with whey in the ingredients after claiming they were dairy-free, then the restaurant is absolutely at fault.

Again, I have to disagree. The family took the restaurant employee's word for it.

That's like playing Russian Roulette if you have such a severe allergy. Since the boy was a teenager, I'd assume he and other family members would have been more prepared for a "what if" situation by at least being in possession of his needed meds at all times "just in case".

They also didn't rush him to Emergency OR call 911 for an ambulance/paramedics. They were headed home to get the boy his meds instead.

Punching 3 numbers into a phone would have taken a few seconds.

[Angel!]

Mar 17, 2015 12:56:12 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Depends on what actually happened. I can envision a situation where I absolutely lay blame with the restaurant. If the family was very clear on the allergy & the restaurant went & fed him pancakes with whey in the ingredients after claiming they were dairy-free, then the restaurant is absolutely at fault.

Again, I have to disagree. The family took the restaurant employee's word for it.

That's like playing Russian Roulette if you have such a severe allergy. Since the boy was a teenager, I'd assume he and other family members would have been more prepared for a "what if" situation by at least being in possession of his needed meds at all times "just in case".

They also didn't rush him to Emergency OR call 911 for an ambulance/paramedics. They were headed home to get the boy his meds instead.

Punching 3 numbers into a phone would have taken a few seconds.

I'm not saying the family made great choices.

I just believe there should be repercussions if the restaurant lied to the family about the ingredients.  Interesting you think they shouldn't be held accountable even if outright negligence led to him ingesting dairy.  You also ok with restaurants intentionally mislabeling items as Vegan, Kosher, gluten-free?

[Deleted]

He was eating pancakes that were labeled dairy free...

Bottom line, this wasn't a single mistake. It was a series of them. And if you write them all out, the fault is on the side of the family ...

[Ryan]

Mar 17, 2015 12:09:18 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 17, 2015 11:46:35 GMT -5 Ryan said:

More accountable?  I think they were already held accountable when they lost their kid.  They are probably just trying to bankrupt the restaurant to send a message that they need to also take responsibility.

This isn't about money...how much money could a "Minnesota Nice" possibly have.  It's about holding restaurants accountable. 

It's about punishing the restaurant and attempting to validate their mistaken belief that they (the parents) aren't to blame for their son's death.

Suing the restaurant won't accomplish a bloody thing, and I find it hard to believe they don't know that.

Actually it will accomplish something.  It will make restaurant owners put protocols in place for how they deal with customers when they notify them of food allergies.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

No - the restaurant employee probably didn't check the labels on the pancake mix to be sure or guarantee that it didn't contain certain ingredients. The server took the cook's word for it, and the family took the word of the server after he/she relayed the message back to the table.

I still don't see how the restaurant can be held accountable. Where were the boy's meds? Obviously not with them. Is that the restaurant's fault? That Epipen very likely would have saved the young man's life IF he'd only had it with him.

It should have been routine to always have one readily available.