My Tenant Bliss Ended Yesterday Update at Post 92

[Bonny]

I titled this thread Tenant Bliss because for the past three months I've been saying that I currently have the best group of tenants I've ever had. That ended today when I got an e-mail from my N. County San Diego tenants citing eight "substandard" conditions and that they want out of their lease December 3rd. Six of the conditions are nonsense. They were conditions that were disclosed up front or items that were immediately repaired when reported.

The real PITA was dealing with a washing machine drain issue which would cause the machine to over flow if large or xtra large loads were washed. I didn't know about the problem until the walk-through with the last tenant and thought the issue was resolved when I had the drain cleaned.  The drain was tested on the large load cycle and I lived at the house myself for three weeks while I was painting the entire interior of the house and didn't have any issues. As soon as the new folks moved in they started having problems. It took a while but the problem was eventually traced to a failed laundry drain pipe. Apparently there was a small crack in the pipe when it was cast some 50 years ago. Over time the interior corrosion reduced the capacity of the drain. Put in a large load with lots of dog hair or link and pipe would clog and back up and flood the laundry room.

Apparently this had been going on for a while. Once the contractor got in there he found mold under the vinyl flooring, sheet rock and we had to spend a week drying out the crawl space under the laundry room. From initial complaint until final resolution was about 60 days. During those 60 days they could use the washing machine but only on medium loads except for the week or so when the area was torn up to dry out the crawl space. Work was completed about a month ago.

I KNOW this was an enormous PITA for them. I reduced rent, offered to reimburse them for their laundry mat expenses and offered them a dinner out for the hassle. They took the rent reduction, declined the laundry reimbursement and have not followed up on the dinner out.

Conversations and communication has always been cordial before which was why I was surprised at the tone of the letter. He is a real estate agent and is offering to market the property. I called him when I got the letter and we went over his responsibilities. I also followed up with a letter reiterating those responsibilities addressing each of the eight issues.

Frankly I don't think these folks are cut out to live in a older home. They sold their "newer" (<10 years old) condo this summer and said they would be looking for a house to buy. I think if they can't handle these issues they no business buying a house, LOL.

I suspect a real motivating factor is that the guy is accepting a job with the City of San Diego. While he states this is a field job and that he doesn't have to commute downtown I think he realizes that commuting to San Diego city limits (about 20 miles away) during commute period is going to suck.

Of course I'm seriously annoyed and concerned. I spent a lot of time, effort and money "turning" this place this summer. I'd have to double-check my records but I'm guessing that we're pushing 10K. And while I had no problem renting out the house this summer (two weeks with a $400 bump) I think it's going to be much more difficult to rent out in the fall/winter. It's a 2900 sq.ft. 3/2 so ideally a young family would take it. And in my experience most families want to move during the summer when school is out.

I think my tenant will try marketing the house for about 45 days and then I'll get the "Keep my deposit I'm outta here" letter towards the end of November.

People suck!  ...well not you guys here...except for some of you...and you know who you are!

[DagnyT]

So sorry to here of your rental troubles. Myself, I would just let them go, but you know your market and clientele much better than I would. The one time I had someone want to terminate the lease early, I just let them. It seemed to me that if they had to stay, they might do damage to retaliate.  Good luck!!

[Bonny]

DagnyT,

I don't think they will retaliate. We actually discussed the issue. He is a real estate professional who is taking a job with the City as a real estate professional. He has a professional reputation to maintain. I fully expect that if he can't find someone quickly he'll do what I stated in the above post. Then it's up to me to decide whether I would go after them. While legally I would be entitled I don't think we would pursue that course of action. I think we'd probably put the house up for sale in January. LOL, while that's not the best time to put a family house on the market that's when we bought almost 10 years ago.

[schildi]

Bonny, what are their other 7 complaints?
As a renter, the 60 days issue with the washing machine would be concerning, plus mold, etc.
In this particular situation, I think you might be best off to just let them go.

[DagnyT]

Thanks, Bonny. Hopefully it will work out. Both of my rentals are  lower to middle income. Taking them to court would not be worth the price or the effort.

[Nazgul Girl]

   Very sorry, Bonny.   It sounds like a long-distance PITA.   We've had to address plumbing issues at both of our rental houses this year, too.   

   If you can sell the house for more money at a later time of the year, then I wouldn't put it on the market in January.   You could lose a lot of money by marketing it too soon.

  Are you sure they're not trying to get the house at a knock-down price ?    Just wondering.

[thyme4change]

I refuse to believe this.  Paul says (and I would never doubt Paul...ever) that buying and renting homes is absolutely fool-proof and the perfect way to make money and nothing ever goes wrong.  I think you are making this up.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry Bonny! I know what a PITA it can be! 

[Bonny]

Oct 4, 2014 11:43:36 GMT -5 schildi said:

Bonny, what are their other 7 complaints?
As a renter, the 60 days issue with the washing machine would be concerning, plus mold, etc.
In this particular situation, I think you might be best off to just let them go.

Hi Schildi, I was away from the computer most of yesterday and wasn't able to respond to your questions. Here's his laundry list of complaints. I responded to his complaints in a professional manner but my comments in parentheses here are much more direct.

1. 2 ½ months of no Laundry Due to Flooding, mold and mildew repair (see prior post. They were unable to use the laundry at all for about 7 full days.)
2. Numerous Gas leaks (The plumber found two gas leaks while he was there. One was from the repair of the spa and the other was from the local utility provider when they changed out the meter. Both were immediately repaired)
3. Fire place still non functional (The house has three fireplaces. The tenant was advised before we signed a lease and again noted in the walk-through that a specialty made insert would need to be ordered and that there would be a long lead time. Tenant said no problem, they didn't expect to use the fireplace until winter. Fireplace was actually repaired the day he wrote the letter.)
4. Hot tub none operational upon move in (True. The day of our walk-through the spa guy told me it wasn't working. I disclosed to tenant. Repairs were completed within a week. Half of that time tenants were away camping. Oh and I should note that they asked to move in early!).
5. Toilet repairs made by me (never advised me before he made the repair. Technically he was in violation of the lease. As a LL tenant "repairs" by non-qualified professional can turn out to be disasters. I did not call him out on this as I thought it would just escalate the matter. I did thank him at the time and offered to reimburse him for the parts. He did not take me up on my offer).
6. Over 40 hours spent at the home waiting for service companies to reply and complete work. (I have no idea whether this is accurate. He never complained. In fact several times he assured me that it was no problem because he worked from home. Had it been a problem I could have made other arrangements).
7. We have experienced an infestation of spiders, received numerous bites and paid for pest control ourselves. (None of my other tenants have complained about spiders. In the past we had a termite problem (which I caught and had the house fumigated), a rat problem because I had piggy tenants who let their kid throw food all over the floor and their caregiver (mother) never cleaned it up but no complaints about spiders. I lived in the house the three weeks before these new tenants moved in. I was the only blooded creature in the house and I did not get any spider bites. We do have spiders at the coast (up here in the SF Bay Area too) but I've never known them to bite. I think these are "apartment" people who have very low "bug" tolerance and believe in killing every bug.)

Schildi, I hope you can understand my frustration with the situation. While there is some "truth" in his statements, it's pretty clear he's twisting and exaggerating the situation trying to build a case for non-habitability. I'm not falling for it.

There is a saying among landlords that you never want to rent to a real estate agent or an attorney and this situation shows why. Instead of 'fessing up that they really are "apartment" people and with the new commute this house doesn't make sense, they come up with a BS laundry list of items to make their problems yours.

[Bonny]

And as a separate update; the tenant posted an ad on Craig's List. There were two misspellings in the title and the pictures (which I provided) were a mess. I also listed some corrections and suggestions. He did some but not all changes.

I can't believe he didn't proof his work. Even after the clean up it looks sloppy and that he was in hurry. I know this seems like a nit but on Craig's List it's a big deal. People assume that you're either a fraudster or a lazy LL.

While I could "fire" him as my agent and do it myself (as usual) it's too early for that. I have the sinking feeling I'm going to be spending most of December in San Diego dealing with this.

I hate stupid tenant drama!

[Nazgul Girl]

   Personally, I wouldn't let him out of the lease.   He and his wife signed the lease with consciousness of the disclosures, and he's not acknowledging that you made the repairs.   I would just hold his feet to the fire and make him live up to the terms of the lease.  

   ETA:  We have a tenant like this.   She's behind on her rent by $ 75, plus 2 late fees, plus one bounced check fee, for a total of $ 167, plus she owes $ 263 for this month's water bill.   We've spent a lot of time and money getting minor fixes made due to her allergies, and she hasn't paid the rent in full. We also lowered the rent by $ 75 per month and she signed a years' extension on the lease.   

   She says she'll bring the money she owes us up to date by the end of the month.   She'd better not come up with anymore b.s. allergy repairs in the meantime.   Sorry, but I can't help it if she has bad seasonal allergies.   There is no mold anywhere in the house, and everything's been caulked.   Don't know what else to tell her except, " Here is your notice to quit." 

[Bonny]

Oct 5, 2014 13:32:31 GMT -5 Nazgul Girl said:

   Personally, I wouldn't let him out of the lease.   He and his wife signed the lease with consciousness of the disclosures, and he's not acknowledging that you made the repairs.   I would just hold his feet to the fire and make him live up to the terms of the lease.  

   ETA:  We have a tenant like this.   She's behind on her rent by $ 75, plus 2 late fees, plus one bounced check fee, for a total of $ 167, plus she owes $ 263 for this month's water bill.   We've spent a lot of time and money getting minor fixes made due to her allergies, and she hasn't paid the rent in full. We also lowered the rent by $ 75 per month and she signed a years' extension on the lease.   

   She says she'll bring the money she owes us up to date by the end of the month.   She'd better not come up with anymore b.s. allergy repairs in the meantime.   Sorry, but I can't help it if she has bad seasonal allergies.   There is no mold anywhere in the house, and everything's been caulked.   Don't know what else to tell her except, " Here is your notice to quit." 

My former tenant in the AZ house was like that. I put up with a certain amount of it because in 2009 well qualified tenants appropriate for this house were few and far between. She was extremely OCD and because she didn't work would find all kinds of little stuff around the house to fixate on. She was a good payer though so I tolerated her through a lease extension. Then she started getting really weird and crazy. Part of it I suspect was due a serious illness (and maybe medication) but the mean, personal insults (some of them would flabbergast you) were shocking. I started copying her agent (really nice guy) and asked him to please talk to her. She finally had a complete melt down and I advised her that I thought it was best for us to go our separate ways when the lease ended. I know she was expecting me to beg her to stay ('cuz she was such a good tenant). It was all I could do to resist from saying "Don't let the door hit your *ss on your way out".

[Deleted]

Naz, I think the issue here is it's probably easier for Bonny to let them out of the lease than to go down to San Diego to prevent him from doing so.

Bonny, we have both been telling each other to sell a property pretty much since we first met IRL LOL!

But your places are really far away from each other, and you have your MIL to deal with as well. I know you're in great shape financially, and you're attached to all of them, for different reasons.

But looking it at from the outside, it seems like you've been dealing with MIL / RE issues pretty much since your DH retired and you both left Germany, what, two years ago? 

MAYBE it's time to let one place go? Not necessarily this place, and not necessarily now. But maybe it's something to consider.

You always told me to get rid of the wonky place, and we FINALLY did. You also told me not to buy the new studio, and we are buying it. But, we can drive to ALL of those places in anywhere from 10 min to 1.5h, depending on location and traffic. BIG difference, both for better and for worse, because none of those rentals provide us with a change of scenery the way yours do. I do realize that.

But most of your rentals (and your MIL) are MANY hundreds of miles away from wherever you are at any given point in time.

So maybe it's time to consider streamlining things and selling ONE of the rentals. If I'm not mistaken, you have two places in SD, a house and an apt. So personally, I'd start there.

Time is money and money is time. You have enough money, but is this really how you and your DH want to spend all your free time for the foreseeable future? I know how you love to travel. I also know that you can't travel right now because of your ailing cat. 

And I know you'd rather get rid of your MIL, but you can't. 

Hugs to you!

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"I refuse to believe this. Paul says (and I would never doubt Paul...ever) that buying and renting homes is absolutely fool-proof and the perfect way to make money and nothing ever goes wrong. I think you are making this up.":::...

I'm pretty sure he's also stated that he has the resources to pursue people who try to shaft him, and would spare no expense in tracking them down and getting a garnishment.

So Bonny if they DO walk, what does the lease prescribe?  Would they be on the hook for the remaining months -- but you'd have to chase them and get legal action to get them?  Given his profession and proximity, finding him and his new employer shouldn't be hard.  You'd probably win out in the long term if you are willing to carry the campaign.

The other bloated issues aside (which are probably there just to add substance to their request to be released), the laundry issue is certainly serious.  It sounds like you handled it as cordially as you could.  I am not sure how I'd react on either side.

That being said, it is possible that they see an opportunity to get out by distorting the facts, and they are taking it.  Maybe you could offer them a buy out or something for a few months rent?

[Nazgul Girl]

   If they walk after signing the lease just a few months prior, then there should be some pretty bad credit report repercussions.    The laundry was fixed when the tenant made the LL aware of it, and it didn't render the house uninhabitable.   She already gave them a lowered rent amount, which they accepted, and continued to live in the structure.   Now, they just want out.    If Bonny and her DH hadn't already fixed everything, the tenant would have something to bellyache about.    But, it is fixed.  
The tenants owe them money, and they should fulfill the terms of their lease.   He can drive 20 miles each way until the lease is up.   Also, it looks more and more like they might be trying to buy the house at a knock-down price.

   I would not let them out of the lease, Bonny.   I sure wouldn't let him market the house for me, since he's a jerk, and doesn't have your best interests at heart.

   The next step in his puny little mind has cooked up will be, " See, Bonny, the house didn't sell despite my masterful mis-spellings on craigslist."   Now, Mrs. Tenant and I will be happy to take it off of your hands despite it's terrible flaws, which you've already fixed for them.   

   They are tricksters and are trying to shake your confidence.   Don't  take the crap.    Good luck.

[Bonny]

Oct 5, 2014 16:55:57 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

...:::"I refuse to believe this. Paul says (and I would never doubt Paul...ever) that buying and renting homes is absolutely fool-proof and the perfect way to make money and nothing ever goes wrong. I think you are making this up.":::...

I'm pretty sure he's also stated that he has the resources to pursue people who try to shaft him, and would spare no expense in tracking them down and getting a garnishment.

So Bonny if they DO walk, what does the lease prescribe?  Would they be on the hook for the remaining months -- but you'd have to chase them and get legal action to get them?  Given his profession and proximity, finding him and his new employer shouldn't be hard.  You'd probably win out in the long term if you are willing to carry the campaign.

The other bloated issues aside (which are probably there just to add substance to their request to be released), the laundry issue is certainly serious.  It sounds like you handled it as cordially as you could.  I am not sure how I'd react on either side.

That being said, it is possible that they see an opportunity to get out by distorting the facts, and they are taking it.  Maybe you could offer them a buy out or something for a few months rent?

CA law dictates that they are responsible for payment in rent full through the term of the lease. However CA also states that a LL has a duty to "mitigate tenant damages" primarily by making a good faith effort to find a similarly qualified tenant. The LL can charge the tenant the costs of commissions, advertising et cetera. Also since it's so early in the lease and I just painted the entire interior of the house if they have significant wear and tear I can charge for a new paint job.

The laundry issue was a PITA, no doubt which is why I gave them a rent credit, offered to reimburse them for their costs and to pay for a dinner out just for the hassle. But it's not a habitability issue. Habitability issues are no running water, sewer, heat, vermin, et cetera.

Of course they are trying to intimidate me with their laundry list of "complaints". But I keep good records and can demonstrate how they are inflating/distorting "the facts". Since the laundry issue was resolved over a month ago you know the driver is his commute (will be an hour long crawl in each direction vs working from home). I think the real problem is that he hasn't been able to make a full-time wage in real estate and had to get a "real job" working for the City. He made a crack about how it didn't pay anything and so you have to figure that he's not a happy camper anyway. It's got to be LL's fault!

Since he offered to be my agent, I feel that I have to let him try. But based on what I've observed so far I have a good idea why he couldn't make a living at it.

As I said in one of my earlier posts I fully expect that marketing this big family home during the late fall is going to be tougher than he thinks. I'm betting that he throws in the towel the end of November. My "buy-out" would be deciding not to pursue him beyond his security deposit. That decision will be driven by how he leaves the house.

And of course my approach would be different if:

1) Genuine issue (health, job loss, et cetera).

2) If he didn't understand what his responsibilities were.

3) 'Fess up that you've changed your mind/made other plans. Don't insult me with the "substandard" housing argument.

[Bonny]

Oct 5, 2014 17:37:24 GMT -5 Nazgul Girl said:

   If they walk after signing the lease just a few months prior, then there should be some pretty bad credit report repercussions.    The laundry was fixed when the tenant made the LL aware of it, and it didn't render the house uninhabitable.   She already gave them a lowered rent amount, which they accepted, and continued to live in the structure.   Now, they just want out.    If Bonny and her DH hadn't already fixed everything, the tenant would have something to bellyache about.    But, it is fixed.  
The tenants owe them money, and they should fulfill the terms of their lease.   He can drive 20 miles each way until the lease is up.   Also, it looks more and more like they might be trying to buy the house at a knock-down price.

   I would not let them out of the lease, Bonny.   I sure wouldn't let him market the house for me, since he's a jerk, and doesn't have your best interests at heart.

   The next step in his puny little mind has cooked up will be, " See, Bonny, the house didn't sell despite my masterful mis-spellings on craigslist."   Now, Mrs. Tenant and I will be happy to take it off of your hands despite it's terrible flaws, which you've already fixed for them.   

   They are tricksters and are trying to shake your confidence.   Don't  take the crap.    Good luck.

I agree with everything that you've said Naz except I really don't think they want to buy the house.

ETA: And it's in his best interest to market the house for rent. I think I'd have a bigger problem if I didn't let him try because then I'd have a reporting duty to HIM advising advertising dates, how many prospects were shown the house, why any of them were rejected blah, blah. I'm going to be traveling a week this month and another week next month. I'll let him struggle with the process instead.

And who knows, maybe he'll get lucky in spite of himself. A quick look on Craig's List only has one listing for a furnished rental at $4500 (!) in this very popular neighborhood.

[Nazgul Girl]

   Hi Bonny, I hope he can get somebody to rent your house.    I'm sure he knows that he can't put just anybody in there  .   They have to be qualified renters, just like and his wife were.   I can see a lot of whiney-pants stuff over that, if he finds somebody but they're sketchy  .

[Nazgul Girl]

   We've had our laundry room leaks and drainage issues, too, in the big rental.    We just had to fix some plumbing issues, replace some tiles, and put in all new trim along the wall behind the washer/dryer due to leakage issues.   All is well now, I guess.  

[gooddecisions]

At least he pays. My renter has been behind since month 2. I got a partial payment in August, nothing in September and nothing yet for October. I guess I'll have to evict and figure out how to get my money.

[gooddecisions]

I also let me previous perfect renters terminate the lease early when they bought a house. I didn't make them find a renter either and ended up with ones who don't pay. So, what I know.

[Bonny]

Oct 5, 2014 21:09:17 GMT -5 Nazgul Girl said:

   Hi Bonny, I hope he can get somebody to rent your house.    I'm sure he knows that he can't put just anybody in there  .   They have to be qualified renters, just like and his wife were.   I can see a lot of whiney-pants stuff over that, if he finds somebody but they're sketchy  .

Actually when he wrote up the Craig's List ad he put in about 8 conditions including things like the prospective tenant needs to bring in 3 months of proof of income, W2s et cetera.

I don't ask for that much myself. So

But I just got an e-mail from him. The toilet he "repaired" is running again. Since this will be the third time it's "broke" I'm thinking I'm buying a new toilet tomorrow. It's probably 30 years old so not unexpected. Just more money I really don't want to spend given what's likely to be a period of no rent.

[Nazgul Girl]

Oct 5, 2014 22:26:18 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Oct 5, 2014 21:09:17 GMT -5 Nazgul Girl said:

   Hi Bonny, I hope he can get somebody to rent your house.    I'm sure he knows that he can't put just anybody in there  .   They have to be qualified renters, just like and his wife were.   I can see a lot of whiney-pants stuff over that, if he finds somebody but they're sketchy  .

Actually when he wrote up the Craig's List ad he put in about 8 conditions including things like the prospective tenant needs to bring in 3 months of proof of income, W2s et cetera.

I don't ask for that much myself. So

But I just got an e-mail from him. The toilet he "repaired" is running again. Since this will be the third time it's "broke" I'm thinking I'm buying a new toilet tomorrow. It's probably 30 years old so not unexpected. Just more money I really don't want to spend given what's likely to be a period of no rent.

   I totally understand.   We had to put a new toilet in the Hud Hut ( the repo we redid last year ), and the tenants had messed it up within 9 months.   However, it's been repaired.   We're never gonna sell that little house !   It has to pay back what we put into it, and I think we're eventually divert the rent from it to pay off our primary residence.   I (we) hate to put money into repairs if the tenants are bad, or are leaving.   

[Hypersion]

I would call the tenant buff and tell them they have to stay until the lease's end.  I've had roommates threaten to break leases and leave but then ended up staying once they tried to find some other place to stay.

[Bonny]

Oct 5, 2014 23:25:21 GMT -5 Hypersion said:

I would call the tenant buff and tell them they have to stay until the lease's end.  I've had roommates threaten to break leases and leave but then ended up staying once they tried to find some other place to stay.

Well I can't "make them" stay. I can only hold them accountable for the rent until the place is rented. I'm pretty sure I can rent it again in 30 days. But it might be at a lower rent and it's a major PITA for MY time and effort.

And I agree with you that they may change their minds. At some level moving again so soon and planning to move again when they find a place to buy is expensive and a hassle. Personally I would just suck it up but I truly think they just are "apartment/condo people" who can't deal with things going wrong with their home.

[whoisjohngalt]

I've never been a landlord (may be...someday) and I don't know if he is just BSing you or not, but  I can kind of see his some of his complaints.

I've been dealing with a refrigerator issue right now and the biggest thing that pisses me off is the amount of time I am spending to deal with it.  And I am SAHM.  So you would think that I have nothing but time on my hands.  But it's annoying.  It's annoying to wait for appts bc they NEVER give you time, it's always 3-4 hrs windows.  Time I had to spent calling all kinds of people - managers/customer service, etc bc it's been over 2 months and it hasn't been fixed.   Time I had to spent to go look at a new refrigerator bc now they want to replace it.

Time is something that I can never get back. 

Re: toilet issue  - I know self-repairs can be tricky when you are renting.  But for me, again, it would have gone back to time thing.  Would it be quicker for me to fix it myself or call/wait for someone else to do it.   So,

I don't take fireplaces and hot tubs issues seriously bc well.....I just don't.

But time aspect would be huge for me.  And spiders.  I live in a rural area and my tolerance for living creatures is very high.  I still wouldn't want spiders in the house

But on a bright side of things - I have a family of 5 with 3 small kids who see nothing wrong with getting dirty 5 minutes after they had a bath and I STILL don't do laundry every week, so 7 days without washing machine would  not be a problem for me

[Hypersion]

Oct 5, 2014 23:44:22 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Oct 5, 2014 23:25:21 GMT -5 Hypersion said:

I would call the tenant buff and tell them they have to stay until the lease's end.  I've had roommates threaten to break leases and leave but then ended up staying once they tried to find some other place to stay.

Well I can't "make them" stay. I can only hold them accountable for the rent until the place is rented. I'm pretty sure I can rent it again in 30 days. But it might be at a lower rent and it's a major PITA for MY time and effort.

And I agree with you that they may change their minds. At some level moving again so soon and planning to move again when they find a place to buy is expensive and a hassle. Personally I would just suck it up but I truly think they just are "apartment/condo people" who can't deal with things going wrong with their home.

Right now it's a seller/landlord market in North SD.  I'm guessing they won't be able to find a equivalent place unless they pay a lot more or downgrade.  I've had roommates complain for 3-4 years that my place is too far from their job and has problems.

[Deleted]

No need for a new toilet... new guts are what $10 at Home Depot?

[Wisconsin Beth]

Oct 6, 2014 1:15:03 GMT -5 @workingshasta said:

No need for a new toilet... new guts are what $10 at Home Depot?

Been there, done that.  Got a new toilet after dropping a lot more than $10 into repairs.  But the toilet I was fixing was an off brand from the days of non-standardized toilet guts.  I like the new one better. 

[thyme4change]

My "new" toilet is amazing.  They have really come a long way in performance.