Mother abandons baby to die story with a twist

[The Captain]

news.yahoo.com/newborn-found-trash-ventilator-mom-arrested-154636187.html

"The young woman told authorities that she hid the pregnancy from her parents and hoped the newborn girl would die in the trash and solve her problems, according to a probable cause statement. The mother told police the baby had been in the trash for about an hour before she was found. The baby had not received any medical care or food, police said."

"Her father, Robert Englert, told The Associated Press on Wednesday that he's trying to make sure everyone is safe but declined to comment further. Earlier in the day, he told Utah media outlets that his daughter had a learning disability and didn't understand her actions"

There is a picture of the woman, who appears to have features consistent with Downs (or some other similiar condition). 

I can't even imagine.  What in the hell is to be done in this case?

On the one hand - we argue that people with mental disabilities have the right to enjoy the same "freedoms" as those without, including having sex and giving birth. 

On the other hand, she appears to be incapable of understanding her actions, or at least that will be the argument.  However - she understood things well enough to hid the pregnancy from her parents.

And - should the father of the baby be charged with anything? 

[zibazinski]

The last case I knew of was my suitemate in college's family. Her sister had the adult body and desires but the mind of a 4 year old. Her family sued unsuccessfully to have her sterilized. She used to run naked down the streets. Her parents are now trying to get either of the two siblings to take care of her. I know my suitemate won't. Her husband gave her the "excuse" she needed to get out of it. I get the disabled have rights but where's the common sense? If you can't care for yourself, how can you care for another even more helpless?

[NancysSummerSip]

In Florida, we have a statute that deals with assault or abuse of a person with a disability, whether the disability is physical or mental. I wonder if Utah has a similar statute, and if so, could it apply in this case?

[zibazinski]

It darn well should!

[zibazinski]

It should be no different than having sex with a child.

[billisonboard]

I think a better first step would be identifying the father rather than deciding to execute him. Another good step would be to determine more accurately the woman's true mental ability based on something more than "Dad said" and in a picture "it looks like".

[Deleted]

She hid the pregnancy and her newborn. She obviously knew it was wrong. What I really don't understand is how her parents couldn't tell she was pregnant. I don't know...maybe I'm just more aware of what's going on with my girls, than some.

[NancysSummerSip]

Aug 28, 2014 9:45:04 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

She hid the pregnancy and her newborn. She obviously knew it was wrong. What I really don't understand is how her parents couldn't tell she was pregnant. I don't know...maybe I'm just more aware of what's going on with my girls, than some.

I worked with a gal who hid a pregnancy. Not the same as parent and child, I know. But I saw this girl every day for eight hours, five days a week. You think I would notice. No one in the office did.

Turns out her boyfriend was in one of the U.S. military academies, and there is a rule about them being married or having kids while in the academy (or at least there was a rule years ago). So she had to hide her condition from everyone, including most of both families.

I went away for a week, came back and found out she had the baby. She was unable to go public, and I think had to leave his name off the birth certificate until he made officer.

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2014 11:06:47 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

Aug 28, 2014 9:45:04 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

She hid the pregnancy and her newborn. She obviously knew it was wrong. What I really don't understand is how her parents couldn't tell she was pregnant. I don't know...maybe I'm just more aware of what's going on with my girls, than some.

I worked with a gal who hid a pregnancy. Not the same as parent and child, I know. But I saw this girl every day for eight hours, five days a week. You think I would notice. No one in the office did.

Turns out her boyfriend was in one of the U.S. military academies, and there is a rule about them being married or having kids while in the academy (or at least there was a rule years ago). So she had to hide her condition from everyone, including most of both families.

I went away for a week, came back and found out she had the baby. She was unable to go public, and I think had to leave his name off the birth certificate until he made officer.

I can kind of see it with a co-worker, but wasn't this woman living with her parents? They never saw her semi-clothed or knew she was no longer needing feminine supplies for all those months?

[greeniis10]

Aug 28, 2014 9:33:36 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I think a better first step would be identifying the father rather than deciding to execute him. Another good step would be to determine more accurately the woman's true mental ability based on something more than "Dad said" and in a picture "it looks like".

This is what I was wondering.  Admittedly, I did not read the full story that was linked, but I think finding out how this happened (the where, then when, the circumstances, etc.) and with whom would be valuable.

[swamp]

Aug 28, 2014 9:45:04 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

She hid the pregnancy and her newborn. She obviously knew it was wrong. What I really don't understand is how her parents couldn't tell she was pregnant. I don't know...maybe I'm just more aware of what's going on with my girls, than some.

Maybe she didn't know. Maybe she's a little chunky and you really couldn't tell.

We have no idea how limited she is.

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2014 12:20:55 GMT -5 swamp said:

Aug 28, 2014 9:45:04 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

She hid the pregnancy and her newborn. She obviously knew it was wrong. What I really don't understand is how her parents couldn't tell she was pregnant. I don't know...maybe I'm just more aware of what's going on with my girls, than some.

Maybe she didn't know. Maybe she's a little chunky and you really couldn't tell.

We have no idea how limited she is.

True

[toomuchreality]

I saw the dad on the local news last night, saying his daughter had diminished mental capacities. He likened her to be like an 11-12 year old. It seemed to me, like he was trying to get people thinking along those lines, to help her defense, more than that he believed it. But that's just my opinion.

The part I have trouble with, is that she knew to hide the pregnancy and then dispose of the baby. She obviously thought about what to do, and the consequences a lot.

Same freedom, same responsibility, in my mind. But then it's not my kid, so

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Aug 28, 2014 9:45:04 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

She hid the pregnancy and her newborn. She obviously knew it was wrong.

No, we don't know that she "obviously knew it was wrong".

I think just immediately arresting her on charges was wrong, in this case. She should have been placed into the custody of a medical professional (hospital environment perhaps), for counseling/therapy to get to the bottom of how her pregnancy actually came about and who it was.

She could very possibly have been molested or raped by a family member, neighbor, friend of family, or "Uncle" and not even realized what was happening to her or what sex even is.

If she was molested or raped, she may also have been threatened not to say anything to anyone "or else".

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2014 12:46:15 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Aug 28, 2014 9:45:04 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

She hid the pregnancy and her newborn. She obviously knew it was wrong.

No, we don't know that she "obviously knew it was wrong".

I think just immediately arresting her on charges was wrong, in this case. She should have been placed into the custody of a medical professional (hospital environment perhaps), for counseling/therapy to get to the bottom of how her pregnancy actually came about and who it was.

She could very possibly have been molested or raped by a family member, neighbor, friend of family, or "Uncle" and not even realized what was happening to her or what sex even is.

If she was molested or raped, she may also have been threatened not to say anything to anyone "or else".

I hadn't thought about the threat to keep quiet. Interesting. More to come, I'm sure.

[toomuchreality]

Aug 28, 2014 12:46:15 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Aug 28, 2014 9:45:04 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

She hid the pregnancy and her newborn. She obviously knew it was wrong.

No, we don't know that she "obviously knew it was wrong".

I think just immediately arresting her on charges was wrong, in this case. She should have been placed into the custody of a medical professional (hospital environment perhaps), for counseling/therapy to get to the bottom of how her pregnancy actually came about and who it was.

She could very possibly have been molested or raped by a family member, neighbor, friend of family, or "Uncle" and not even realized what was happening to her or what sex even is.

If she was molested or raped, she may also have been threatened not to say anything to anyone "or else".

This makes it okay to put your kid in the trash? -At the neighbor's house, no less. (if I remember correctly)

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I didn't say it was okay - but just arresting a mentally challenged person without getting to the bottom of what brought it to this seems extreme, given her condition.

If indeed she had been taken advantage of and then threatened (either threats to her or threats to hurt her family), she may have been so frightened when the baby came, that she had to "hide" it so nobody would find out or be hurt.

She may not even have realizee that it was a little human being she was abandoning. We really won't know until more on this story comes to light.

My first concern would be for the welfare of the young woman.

[toomuchreality]

Aug 28, 2014 13:38:49 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I didn't say it was okay - but just arresting a mentally challenged person without getting to the bottom of what brought it to this seems extreme, given her condition.

If indeed she had been taken advantage of and then threatened (either threats to her or threats to hurt her family), she may have been so frightened when the baby came, that she had to "hide" it so nobody would find out or be hurt.

She may not even have realizee that it was a little human being she was abandoning. We really won't know until more on this story comes to light.

My first concern would be for the welfare of the young woman.

Gotcha.  Too often, it seems people's welfare is not much of a consideration.

[gooddecisions]

Aug 28, 2014 9:45:04 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

She hid the pregnancy and her newborn. She obviously knew it was wrong. What I really don't understand is how her parents couldn't tell she was pregnant. I don't know...maybe I'm just more aware of what's going on with my girls, than some.

At 12 years old, I lied and hid more stuff than any other age. I remember being afraid of getting in trouble and wanting to hide the truth instead of coming clean- even when it was stuff that wouldn't necessarily get me in trouble. So, if that is her mindset, I could see it. This is also why pedophiles get away with so much.