Letter of recommendation...

[The Captain]

So I very recently had an employee leave my department to go to another firm.  They'd been with me less than a year but apparently are getting a HUGE bump in pay (that I can't match) due to the skills they acquired while in my area (I had hired them straight out of school into a junior staff position).

In some respect I can't blame them as I know they are the sole source of income right now for their family.  OTOH it is a REALLY sucky time of the year to leave (we have a boatload of returns due 9/15 and 10/15).  I will be in a least one day, if not more, on the weekends for the next two months to make sure everything gets filed on time. 

They've asked me for a letter of recommendation.  I'm on the fence because, while they did do great work for me, I personally would never (and have never) put my boss/employer in this position.

What would you do?

[The Captain]

Aug 8, 2014 7:24:08 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

I'm confused what do they need the LoR for if they already have a new job?

In my area it's fairly common to request LoR from prior employers to have a stack ready when you look for your next job.  It's now pretty rare for someone in my field to stay with one employer for more then 3-5 years especially when you are newer in your career.

All of my interns commonly request LoR's from me even though they get jobs upon graduation.  Usually the same for younger staff as well.

[ArchietheDragon]

Politely decline.  IMHO, his future prospective employers are not going to want them anyway, so it is would just to sit in a drawer, anyway.   Unless, you want to keep the option of rehiring them at some point.  Then write it so that the bridge isn't burned. 

[Opti]

I know the timing is inconvenient, but jobs often are available when they are available, i.e.

not always at convenient times. Did they give a two week notice to leave?

If people generally get them to have them, you could always tell the person yes, but not until

things slow down again, probably November.

[Bluerobin]

Time to make a company policy:  We do not issue letters of recommendation.

[The Captain]

Aug 8, 2014 8:48:43 GMT -5 Opti said:

I know the timing is inconvenient, but jobs often are available when they are available, i.e.

not always at convenient times. Did they give a two week notice to leave?

If people generally get them to have them, you could always tell the person yes, but not until

things slow down again, probably November.

 

There has never been a shortage of jobs in my field.  Two weeks notice was all I got from them, and at that level it's appropriate.  The time of the year they decided to leave is what I take issue with. 

It's ok to look out for #1.  However, the more I reflect on it, the more I think it's cheeky to ask for a LoR when you know you've screwed your boss by picking the second worst time of the year to resign.  That, and the fact that the significant amount of my own time I invested in training this person will not pay me any dividends. 

When I take a job I commit to stick with it a certain period of time.  Apparently not everyone else has the same belief.

And people wonder why companies don't have any loyalty to the employee anymore.

[wvugurl26]

Aug 8, 2014 9:09:08 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Aug 8, 2014 8:48:43 GMT -5 Opti said:

I know the timing is inconvenient, but jobs often are available when they are available, i.e.

not always at convenient times. Did they give a two week notice to leave?

If people generally get them to have them, you could always tell the person yes, but not until

things slow down again, probably November.

 

There has never been a shortage of jobs in my field.  Two weeks notice was all I got from them, and at that level it's appropriate.  The time of the year they decided to leave is what I take issue with. 

It's ok to look out for #1.  However, the more I reflect on it, the more I think it's cheeky to ask for a LoR when you know you've screwed your boss by picking the second worst time of the year to resign.  That, and the fact that the significant amount of my own time I invested in training this person will not pay me any dividends. 

When I take a job I commit to stick with it a certain period of time.  Apparently not everyone else has the same belief.

And people wonder why companies don't have any loyalty to the employee anymore.

Just curious on how long they were there and what you thought would have been an appropriate length of time to stay. I probably wouldn't have asked for the letter but apparently that's standard procedure in your industry.

I get that the timing is bad for you but I'm having a hard time saying they should have stuck around until late fall making far less money and hoping the job would still be available so your company and you aren't scrambling to cover work. I don't see much of a benefit to the employee in that. You can't match the offer so I'm doubting you could do anything to compensate them for sticking around for a few more months.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 8, 2014 9:09:08 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Aug 8, 2014 8:48:43 GMT -5 Opti said:

I know the timing is inconvenient, but jobs often are available when they are available, i.e.

not always at convenient times. Did they give a two week notice to leave?

If people generally get them to have them, you could always tell the person yes, but not until

things slow down again, probably November.

 

There has never been a shortage of jobs in my field.  Two weeks notice was all I got from them, and at that level it's appropriate.  The time of the year they decided to leave is what I take issue with. 

It's ok to look out for #1.  However, the more I reflect on it, the more I think it's cheeky to ask for a LoR when you know you've screwed your boss by picking the second worst time of the year to resign.   That, and the fact that the significant amount of my own time I invested in training this person will not pay me any dividends. 

When I take a job I commit to stick with it a certain period of time.  Apparently not everyone else has the same belief.

And people wonder why companies don't have any loyalty to the employee anymore.

Take umbrage with the employer who posted a job during your company's second worst time of the year.  But how is that your soon-to-be ex-employee's fault?

[Opti]

The Captain, the reason I asked as there are some really bad employees out there notice-wise.

I've watched people walk out the door and just not come back. More than once.

Its your choice, but if they are someone who needed more money, odds are jobs are more likely

to offer such at a busy time not a slow time. I'm slow to move from a job unless its really bad.

However, it appears those who are not often get better pay and careers.

Companies don't have loyalty to employees and its not just on based on employee behavior.

Unless you hired him with a expectation he stays at least 1 year or whatever time, he broke

no employment expectations except one you never voiced and wasn't part of the job description.

This is guessing of course, he didn't leave you in the first month or two.

[sesfw]

They've asked me for a letter of recommendation

I had one supervisor tell a person that wanted a LOR that they had to write the letter and he would sign it.

The person asking declined.  Problem solved.

[The Captain]

Aug 8, 2014 9:14:11 GMT -5 wvugurl26 said:

Aug 8, 2014 9:09:08 GMT -5 The Captain said:

There has never been a shortage of jobs in my field.  Two weeks notice was all I got from them, and at that level it's appropriate.  The time of the year they decided to leave is what I take issue with. 

It's ok to look out for #1.  However, the more I reflect on it, the more I think it's cheeky to ask for a LoR when you know you've screwed your boss by picking the second worst time of the year to resign.  That, and the fact that the significant amount of my own time I invested in training this person will not pay me any dividends. 

When I take a job I commit to stick with it a certain period of time.  Apparently not everyone else has the same belief.

And people wonder why companies don't have any loyalty to the employee anymore.

Just curious on how long they were there and what you thought would have been an appropriate length of time to stay. I probably wouldn't have asked for the letter but apparently that's standard procedure in your industry.

I get that the timing is bad for you but I'm having a hard time saying they should have stuck around until late fall making far less money and hoping the job would still be available so your company and you aren't scrambling to cover work. I don't see much of a benefit to the employee in that. You can't match the offer so I'm doubting you could do anything to compensate them for sticking around for a few more months.

I hired them straight out of college. They were with me for one year.

Usually in our industry you're seen as a job hopper if you don't stick with an employer for at least three years.  This is especially true if you can't last a stint in public accounting for three years.

I invest a significant amount of my personal time (yes MY time as I work later hours and weekends because of it) to teach/train my employees well and it shows.  A majority of the staff who move on from my department move into higher roles.  Opportunities for advancement here are limited (I get that) and I'm ok with moving on after a few years.  I have a problem with only one year.

My last two hires (besides this one) were from big 4 and both those staff told me they learned more from me in one year then the 3-4 years they spent in public. 

[The Captain]

Aug 8, 2014 9:17:36 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Aug 8, 2014 9:09:08 GMT -5 The Captain said:

There has never been a shortage of jobs in my field.  Two weeks notice was all I got from them, and at that level it's appropriate.  The time of the year they decided to leave is what I take issue with. 

It's ok to look out for #1.  However, the more I reflect on it, the more I think it's cheeky to ask for a LoR when you know you've screwed your boss by picking the second worst time of the year to resign.   That, and the fact that the significant amount of my own time I invested in training this person will not pay me any dividends. 

When I take a job I commit to stick with it a certain period of time.  Apparently not everyone else has the same belief.

And people wonder why companies don't have any loyalty to the employee anymore.

Take umbrage with the employer who posted a job during your company's second worst time of the year.  But how is that your soon-to-be ex-employee's fault?

You would be ok with someone whom you have to train/teach heavily leaving after only one year?

[The Captain]

And, I want to clarify because I obviously did not stress this enough in my first post.  This person was straight out of college, hired into a profession where what you need to know is NOT taught in college.

I have to invest heavily in training new hires at any level up to manager.

It would be like a manufacturing company hiring a HS graduate then teaching them about welding enough to get certified.  Then one year later the person goes to a competitior who pays better.

If you would seriously be ok with this then we simply are not on the same page.  

Let me give you some numbers.

Hired,  accounting degree 3.0 GPA (so public accounting firms wouldn't even look at them) at $55K a year.

Last review - got a $4K a year raise so up to $59K a year.

The job they were offered is at a second tier accounting firm that is giving them a 35% boost (yes, $80K - I can't match that).  Now they are going to find out the hard way that the promises about work/life balance are bullshit - but I can't do anything about that.

I'm not paying peanuts, and apparently the knowledge I transmit does have value.  I may be wrong, but think one year sucks.  Leaving during busy season after only one year really sucks.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 8, 2014 10:00:07 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Aug 8, 2014 9:17:36 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Take umbrage with the employer who posted a job during your company's second worst time of the year.  But how is that your soon-to-be ex-employee's fault?

You would be ok with someone whom you have to train/teach heavily leaving after only one year?

The Captain-you state you believe the employee is the sole income provider.  Your company was unable to match the salary offered.  The cost of living continues to increase by the day.  Why should the employee be 'penalized' for that?   You are making the issue personal.  

It is your call ìn the end.  Not providing a LoR is not much a penalty.  The employee sounds young.  (S)he will survive.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Maybe you need to hire them as interns and assume they'll leave after 12-18 months.  Set up conditions where you'll train them but they can't leave during busy seasons.  Have a good contract.  You say you know you excel at teaching them what they need to know, so see about changing your hiring process somehow. 

[swasat]

Aug 8, 2014 10:18:58 GMT -5 The Captain said:

And, I want to clarify because I obviously did not stress this enough in my first post.  This person was straight out of college, hired into a profession where what you need to know is NOT taught in college.

I have to invest heavily in training new hires at any level up to manager.

It would be like a manufacturing company hiring a HS graduate then teaching them about welding enough to get certified.  Then one year later the person goes to a competitior who pays better.

If you would seriously be ok with this then we simply are not on the same page.  

Let me give you some numbers.

Hired,  accounting degree 3.0 GPA (so public accounting firms wouldn't even look at them) at $55K a year.

Last review - got a $4K a year raise so up to $59K a year.

The job they were offered is at a second tier accounting firm that is giving them a 35% boost (yes, $80K - I can't match that).  Now they are going to find out the hard way that the promises about work/life balance are bullshit - but I can't do anything about that.

I'm not paying peanuts, and apparently the knowledge I transmit does have value.  I may be wrong, but think one year sucks.  Leaving during busy season after only one year really sucks.

It seems to me your major issue is that its YOUR busy season and you won't be able to cover the work. Understandable.

But you are expecting someone to give up a good job opportunity with a HUGE pay raise and just think about the workload you will be left with. Why would he/she? I wouldn't. Ultimately he is responsible for his own career and his own family. If he is getting an opportunity to move ahead in life and provide a better life for his family (being the sole earner) why do you expect him to give up his ambitions?

I understand you trained him and such. But many employers do that. You can expect loyalty in return , but only to a certain extent. His ultimate loyalty lies with whats better for his family and him. It would be foolish to expect someone to give up a great job with a much better pay just because you were the one who hired him and trained him.

I would be gracious and give a LOR.

[Opti]

Aug 8, 2014 10:18:58 GMT -5 The Captain said:

And, I want to clarify because I obviously did not stress this enough in my first post.  This person was straight out of college, hired into a profession where what you need to know is NOT taught in college.

I have to invest heavily in training new hires at any level up to manager.

It would be like a manufacturing company hiring a HS graduate then teaching them about welding enough to get certified.  Then one year later the person goes to a competitior who pays better.

If you would seriously be ok with this then we simply are not on the same page.  

Let me give you some numbers.

Hired,  accounting degree 3.0 GPA (so public accounting firms wouldn't even look at them) at $55K a year.

Last review - got a $4K a year raise so up to $59K a year.

The job they were offered is at a second tier accounting firm that is giving them a 35% boost (yes, $80K - I can't match that).  Now they are going to find out the hard way that the promises about work/life balance are bullshit - but I can't do anything about that.

I'm not paying peanuts, and apparently the knowledge I transmit does have value.  I may be wrong, but think one year sucks.  Leaving during busy season after only one year really sucks.

We probably aren't on the same page for many reasons. Both my old industries have mostly dropped training

plus layoffs and company buyouts usually happen in two to three year time-frames so even having the

expectation to have a job that would still exist after 4 years is somewhat novel to my experience.

Things change. I don't know what this person's expectations were, but it happens.

Maybe they will regret the move, maybe they won't. But if they need the $$, its understandable

they would try.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 8, 2014 10:30:25 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Maybe you need to hire them as interns and assume they'll leave after 12-18 months.  Set up conditions where you'll train them but they can't leave during busy seasons.  Have a good contract.  You say you know you excel at teaching them what they need to know, so see about changing your hiring process somehow. 

And a pretty nice bonus ìf they stay through the busy season.  That too should be ìn the hiring contract.  Otherwise there ìs no financial ìncentive to stay.

[The Captain]

The suggestions about hiring contracts sound good, but the reality is they are not enforceable.  The constitution prohibits involuntary servitude.  The only thing we could try to do is recover expenses paid for the employee, but at the staff level those are minimal.

The nice bonus is a better idea, my problem is my company considers my area on an equal footing with another area and I'm having to fight tooth and nail for a different compensation structure.  The old "if we give your employees X then we have to give everyone X" is wearing kinda thin.  However, I think the perception may be changing because the recruiters fees are starting to add up.  Yes, I know this is my problem.

Tennesseer is right, I am making this personal - which I don't normally do.  Right now I'm just really frustrated and not looking forward to working weekends for the next 8-10 weeks.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 8, 2014 11:50:45 GMT -5 The Captain said:

The suggestions about hiring contracts sound good, but the reality is they are not enforceable.  The constitution prohibits involuntary servitude.  The only thing we could try to do is recover expenses paid for the employee, but at the staff level those are minimal.

The nice bonus is a better idea, my problem is my company considers my area on an equal footing with another area and I'm having to fight tooth and nail for a different compensation structure.  The old "if we give your employees X then we have to give everyone X" is wearing kinda thin.  However, I think the perception may be changing because the recruiters fees are starting to add up.  Yes, I know this is my problem.

Tennesseer is right, I am making this personal - which I don't normally do.  Right now I'm just really frustrated and not looking forward to working weekends for the next 8-10 weeks.

Understandable.  Better to vent here than ìn the office or directly at the employee in question.  

[hoops902]

You're upset that an employee who by your own accounts was HUGELY underpaid chose to be fairly compensated somewhere else at a time that was inconvenient for you? 

They didn't spit in your face and steal your files, they gave 2 weeks and went with a company that would pay them what they are worth.

When your company chooses to fire someone, do they first sit down with them and find out when would be a convenient time to terminate them?

What was that employee's alternative?  Stay at your company, continue to be hugely underpaid, and hope something opens up when it is more convenient for the same company that's already underpaying them?

Obviously frustrating to have to train someone just to have them leave, but that's pretty typical when a company vastly underpays people.  People join, learn some skills, and move as quickly as possible somewhere else for market compensation.

[greeniis10]

Aug 8, 2014 11:50:45 GMT -5 The Captain said:

The suggestions about hiring contracts sound good, but the reality is they are not enforceable.  The constitution prohibits involuntary servitude.  The only thing we could try to do is recover expenses paid for the employee, but at the staff level those are minimal.

The nice bonus is a better idea, my problem is my company considers my area on an equal footing with another area and I'm having to fight tooth and nail for a different compensation structure.  The old "if we give your employees X then we have to give everyone X" is wearing kinda thin.  However, I think the perception may be changing because the recruiters fees are starting to add up.  Yes, I know this is my problem.

Tennesseer is right, I am making this personal - which I don't normally do.  Right now I'm just really frustrated and not looking forward to working weekends for the next 8-10 weeks.

Sorry you're dealing with this.  Pretty much everyone else is right that the employee has to do what is best for themselves financially, but I also think you are very hard working, engaged, and obviously care about your employees and the quality of knowledge they obtain.  Good for you! 

[Peace Of Mind]

Aug 8, 2014 11:50:45 GMT -5 The Captain said:

The suggestions about hiring contracts sound good, but the reality is they are not enforceable.  The constitution prohibits involuntary servitude.  The only thing we could try to do is recover expenses paid for the employee, but at the staff level those are minimal.

The nice bonus is a better idea, my problem is my company considers my area on an equal footing with another area and I'm having to fight tooth and nail for a different compensation structure.  The old "if we give your employees X then we have to give everyone X" is wearing kinda thin.  However, I think the perception may be changing because the recruiters fees are starting to add up.  Yes, I know this is my problem.

Tennesseer is right, I am making this personal - which I don't normally do.  Right now I'm just really frustrated and not looking forward to working weekends for the next 8-10 weeks.

I agree with Tenn too and was going to say you are allowing your personal feelings to affect your decision which IMO wouldn't be fair to the employee who did a good job for you and is only leaving due to the higher pay.  I would be upset too but it wouldn't be right to not do that for them.  Also - what if they hate the new job?  You might get a good employee already trained by you back so I wouldn't burn that bridge. 

I wonder though - could you ask them to work on the weekends for you until you get somebody else trained?  Maybe they need the money bad enough and they could help you out for a bit. 

[lynnerself]

While I agree that the employees need to look after their own interests, I think they also should be willing to accept any consequences that come with that decision.
If they leave for better positions after a short employment and at an inconvenient time, I don't think it is unreasonable to realize they might not get the best (or any) letter of commendation.