Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 26, 2014 9:10:33 GMT -5
I wonder what makes it an "Exclusive Poll"? Outside of the Revolution War of 1812 The Civil War WWI WWII I imagine most Americans would feel all other conflicts and wars we were involved in were not worth it. Not sure if there ever was a poll for the Spanish American war, so did not include that one. Wars in most people's minds, are not worth it. Unless you live in the Middle East.
Well the Civil War cost about 1000 million dollars and liberated the slaves, WWII cost 296 billion dollars and liberated Europe, and the Iraq war cost about 1.1 trillion dollars and did what? Kill a tin plated dictator who, by the way, had no weapons of mass destruction? Or was it because we were exporting democracy to the Middle East - only looks like that didn't really 'take', did it, given current events?
I can't think of anything, anything at all we gained by killing Sadam. Iraq is not a safer place, or a better US ally, because he's dead. So that's 1.1 trillion down the hole for squat.
The poll was not about the cost of the particular conflict. It was whether the conflict was worth it emotionally and the resultant result. I do wonder if the cost of the Civil War also included the cost of destruction of cities in the south, and also includes the monetary expenditure of the south, but then I imagine the dollar was worth a little bit more back then .......Federal largesse has killed the value of the dollar to what, about twenty nine cents
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 26, 2014 9:49:37 GMT -5
This is a waste of time. There are plenty of Constitutional options the GOP could have exercised to address Obama's use of power. This risky strategy (suppose the court upholds abuse of executive authority as perfectly legitimate?) is just a distraction.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 26, 2014 11:21:49 GMT -5
This is a waste of time. There are plenty of Constitutional options the GOP could have exercised to address Obama's use of power. This risky strategy (suppose the court upholds abuse of executive authority as perfectly legitimate?) is just a distraction. how does this relate to Megyn Kelly and/or Dick Cheney and/or the Iraq War, Paul?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 26, 2014 13:22:05 GMT -5
Wrong thread. Oops.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 26, 2014 14:16:57 GMT -5
Yes but I would argue that how you feel emotionally about something is very closely tied to the financial cost.
Given the size of the threat that Hitler was, I think many people would feel that defeating him was worthwhile, even if the cost was twice or three times what it actually was.
With the Iraq war, most people struggle to understand what the benefit was to the US. Personally I wouldn't have thought it worthwhile to pay $100,000 to eliminate Saddam; maybe if we could have hired some mercenary sniper to take him out for $20,000 that might have been worth it. The fact that we ended up paying 1.1 trillion is outrageous.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 26, 2014 22:10:49 GMT -5
Yes but I would argue that how you feel emotionally about something is very closely tied to the financial cost.
With the Iraq war, most people struggle to understand what the benefit was to the US. Personally I wouldn't have thought it worthwhile to pay $100,000 to eliminate Saddam; maybe if we could have hired some mercenary sniper to take him out for $20,000 that might have been worth it. The fact that we ended up paying 1.1 trillion is outrageous. We tried that in Vietnam. The U.S. decided to have a coup ousting South Vietnam's President, placing our favored person in the office. Didn't work out too well there either.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 26, 2014 22:35:43 GMT -5
We always fuck up the putting a US puppet government in place part. If we just focused on killing the fucker and being done with it we would be far more successful and it would cost a tiny fraction of the price. How much does a single drone strike or long range smart bomb cost? Maybe $25k or so. That's all it would have taken to remove Saddam from power. Maybe another $25-50k to do the same thing to his successor and his. For under $250k we could have killed enough of them to get a guy leading Iraq that doesn't openly support terrorists.
Worst case scenario we kill Saddam, Iraq falls into chaos, and various jihadist groups start using the chaos as a proving/training ground for their soldiers which is what we have now anyway, but we'd only be out $25k with no US troops killed or injured.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 27, 2014 10:11:24 GMT -5
There is a certain segment of our leadership who believe that the purpose of the US government is to strong arm other countries into becoming democracies, because this will defeat the commies and the terrorists.
Iraq is crazy quilt of tribal lands artificially forced together by the British back in their colonial period. The various tribal and religious factions there have been fighting each other since before we were even a country. They aren't ready to be a democracy.
We were idiots to think we could go in, kill the ass wipe we didn't like, restore order, set up the framework for a democratic form of government, supervise some elections, and then leave, leaving behind a country that would forever be our strong ally in the regions. This isn't the first time we've made this mistake. You would think we were learn to stop meddling in other people's shit.
If we want to encourage democracies, we make them favored trading partners. We give them foreign aid. We help them out however we can. But you don't go in, blow shit up and then tell them they're all voters now.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 27, 2014 14:37:38 GMT -5
Eh... I don't know. When you put it that way... it works for the Borg!
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Jun 27, 2014 14:48:52 GMT -5
At least GW had the decency to slink off into the desert and go away. No, belay that- he had the decency to stand aside and let the next person lead without interference from the previous occupant. A trait he shares with or got from his father. Dik Cheney has no such morals. Or any morals at all from what I can see. He is truly- evil. Anybody prepared at this early juncture to guess whether future ex-President Obama will be more Bush or Cheney in this regard?
I just want to gauge our consensus view of Mr Obama on the decent/evil axis...
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 27, 2014 15:19:38 GMT -5
It depends on how popular Obamacare is roughly three years after he leaves office. If low income folks like getting subsidized healthcare, I'm betting they will, he'll be popular enough for the Dems to trot him out and have him help campaign. Fair or not he's going to be judged in the future pretty much entirely on Obamacare.
I do expect he'll avoid the spotlight and disappear for a while right after leaving office. The question is whether he'll pop back up to help the Dems in 2020.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 27, 2014 15:29:35 GMT -5
At least GW had the decency to slink off into the desert and go away. No, belay that- he had the decency to stand aside and let the next person lead without interference from the previous occupant. A trait he shares with or got from his father. Dik Cheney has no such morals. Or any morals at all from what I can see. He is truly- evil. Anybody prepared at this early juncture to guess whether future ex-President Obama will be more Bush or Cheney in this regard?
I just want to gauge our consensus view of Mr Obama on the decent/evil axis...
I think he will follow his own path - which will lead him to a show on Comedy Central.
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genericname
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Post by genericname on Jun 27, 2014 16:18:58 GMT -5
I would be really interested to see wyouser's opinion on this thread. My DH grew up in the Equality State and has very strong negative opinions of Cheney. Every time I go in and out of the Dick Cheney Federal Building in Casper I get a bad feeling. The Cheney's are either loved or hated in this state, no in betweens it seems.
(Equality State: Wyoming was the first state to give women the right to vote. If they hadn't, there wouldn't have been enough people to apply for statehood)
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 27, 2014 16:24:36 GMT -5
At least GW had the decency to slink off into the desert and go away. No, belay that- he had the decency to stand aside and let the next person lead without interference from the previous occupant. A trait he shares with or got from his father. Dik Cheney has no such morals. Or any morals at all from what I can see. He is truly- evil. Anybody prepared at this early juncture to guess whether future ex-President Obama will be more Bush or Cheney in this regard?
I just want to gauge our consensus view of Mr Obama on the decent/evil axis...
Milqetoast
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jun 28, 2014 14:49:10 GMT -5
Cheney is both a war criminal and guilty of high treason for the outing of Valerie Plame.
Iraq was a complete mistake but planned for years by the PNAC and their support of Israel. Getting W in was key. The hi-tecjh Jim Crow in Jebville clinched it.
Paul is wrong in his assertion that taking Saddam out after 9/11 was the right thing to do. As he bought into all the BS spewed by his conservo pals about Saddam's connectivity to that ttragic event, it must be hard for him to admit how wrong they all were, or that the Iraq invasion was really about something elde entirely. It was originally Operation Iraqui Liberation until they changed the name. Greg Palast says it was all about preventing Saddam from giving the finger to OPEC and western oil suppliers and flooding the world market to lower the price. He had to be taken out. 9/11 simply had nothing to do with it other than the required marketing to sell it to enough dupes.
Professor Stiglitz, a noted economist, has placed the final cost of Iraq at over $3 trillion. That the party of fiscal conservatism rode this horse into battle is hypocrisy of the highest order.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 29, 2014 10:46:44 GMT -5
Cheney is both a war criminal and guilty of high treason for the outing of Valerie Plame. Iraq was a complete mistake but planned for years by the PNAC and their support of Israel. Getting W in was key. The hi-tecjh Jim Crow in Jebville clinched it. Paul is wrong in his assertion that taking Saddam out after 9/11 was the right thing to do. As he bought into all the BS spewed by his conservo pals about Saddam's connectivity to that ttragic event, it must be hard for him to admit how wrong they all were, or that the Iraq invasion was really about something elde entirely. i think it is more regional than that. this is about asserting domination of the middle east, or if you prefer a less politically charged term: control. if you have an ally in Iraq, you suddenly can build bases, and assert power in a way that Israel can't. having lost Saudi Arabia to Al Qaida (something Obama has reversed- getting no credit from the hard right), we had to find another client state from which to protect our "security". Saddam was an excuse to invade. the one that stuck. but he was not the reason.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jun 29, 2014 13:15:38 GMT -5
Whatever the reason, the bottom line is we were lied into Iraq by the war criminal BushCo. administration. Over 5000 heroes are dead while the rightwingnuts pull pud over the 4 dead in Benghazi.
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Post by Willing Sniper on Jun 29, 2014 13:36:41 GMT -5
Cheney is both a war criminal and guilty of high treason for the outing of Valerie Plame. Iraq was a complete mistake but planned for years by the PNAC and their support of Israel. Getting W in was key. The hi-tecjh Jim Crow in Jebville clinched it. Paul is wrong in his assertion that taking Saddam out after 9/11 was the right thing to do. As he bought into all the BS spewed by his conservo pals about Saddam's connectivity to that ttragic event, it must be hard for him to admit how wrong they all were, or that the Iraq invasion was really about something elde entirely. It was originally Operation Iraqui Liberation until they changed the name. Greg Palast says it was all about preventing Saddam from giving the finger to OPEC and western oil suppliers and flooding the world market to lower the price. He had to be taken out. 9/11 simply had nothing to do with it other than the required marketing to sell it to enough dupes. Professor Stiglitz, a noted economist, has placed the final cost of Iraq at over $3 trillion. That the party of fiscal conservatism rode this horse into battle is hypocrisy of the highest order. You are correct.
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Willing Sniper
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Post by Willing Sniper on Jun 29, 2014 13:48:17 GMT -5
Nothing o see here folks move along
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 30, 2014 7:29:02 GMT -5
Whatever the reason, the bottom line is we were lied into Iraq by the war criminal BushCo. administration. Over 5000 heroes are dead while the rightwingnuts pull pud over the 4 dead in Benghazi. Yep. And I can't believe Cheney now has the balls to go on the talking head shows to whine about how Obama is doing it wrong.
Why would he think anyone other than a handful of die hard neo cons would give a shit what he has to say? He needs to have the good grace to sink back into his swamp and stay quiet.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Jun 30, 2014 8:49:31 GMT -5
We used to call this Carter Doctrine.
Of course, back then, we didn't think we needed to worry about the political right enough to demonize them. Who were they going to nominate? Some washed-up actor?
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Jun 30, 2014 8:50:13 GMT -5
Whatever the reason, the bottom line is we were lied into Iraq by the war criminal BushCo. administration. Over 5000 heroes are dead while the rightwingnuts pull pud over the 4 dead in Benghazi. Offensive, oversimplistic, unprovable.
Trifecta
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Jun 30, 2014 9:01:59 GMT -5
This is a sufficiently interesting claim that I'd like to see what lies behind it.
www.globalresearch.ca/barack-obama-and-saudi-arabia-behind-the-scenes-of-the-visit/5376447
rt.com/op-edge/obama-saudi-break-away-257/
Both the linked articles allude to a cooling of relations between Riyadh and Washington directly attributable to Obama's Middle East "policy" (I'm being kind). I fail to see how that's helped win the Saudis back. Wait, Obama bravely boarded a chopper in the dead of night and killed bin Laden with a tweet. I keep forgetting that part.
And, obviously, I'm missing something else in this Big Picture. It seems to me a lot like Obama's lost Egypt, lost Libya, lost Syria, and lost Iraq, and done the square root of nothing to keep Saudi Arabia unless we count encouraging al Qaeda to flourish against oppression in the Yemen and Bahrain, which still ends up looking like a big net negative to me.
Why shouldn't terrorists have the same inalienable rights to self-determination as the rest of us?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 30, 2014 9:30:22 GMT -5
... But here during the visit a serious shift took place, and satisfaction literally oozes between the lines of the official commentaries on the negotiations. ... (from link one) Relations between Washington and Riyadh were at their lowest in October 2013, when then Saudi intelligence chief Prince Bandar bin Sultan vowed to make a"major shift" in relations with the US ... (from link two) And then Bandar was gone: www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/prince-bandar-saudi-intelligence-syria
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jun 30, 2014 11:07:44 GMT -5
Whatever the reason, the bottom line is we were lied into Iraq by the war criminal BushCo. administration. Over 5000 heroes are dead while the rightwingnuts pull pud over the 4 dead in Benghazi. Offensive, oversimplistic, unprovable.
Trifecta
Al Libbi, caskets, Bugliosi...https://www.google.com/#q=the+prosecution+of+george+w.+bush+for+murder&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDgzYHsxCnfq6-gZFBWm6uEheIaWJmUmlWpiXgWFqSkV8Uku-Un5_tn5dTudyqSWe94rcnBw5uevfoR2RwrlO4LQCnNHQsSAAAAA
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 30, 2014 13:38:38 GMT -5
Whatever the reason, the bottom line is we were lied into Iraq by the war criminal BushCo. administration. Over 5000 heroes are dead while the rightwingnuts pull pud over the 4 dead in Benghazi. Yep. And I can't believe Cheney now has the balls to go on the talking head shows to whine about how Obama is doing it wrong.
he either lives in an irony free world, he has no ability to see his own actions for what they are, or both.
Why would he think anyone other than a handful of die hard neo cons would give a shit what he has to say? He needs to have the good grace to sink back into his swamp and stay quiet.
which shows he has no good graces, on top of his many, many, many other faults.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 30, 2014 13:39:55 GMT -5
Yep. And I can't believe Cheney now has the balls to go on the talking head shows to whine about how Obama is doing it wrong.
Why would he think anyone other than a handful of die hard neo cons would give a shit what he has to say? He needs to have the good grace to sink back into his swamp and stay quiet.
Just shows how clueless the old ba$tard is. This is HIS F'up, and his (their) fingerprints are all over it. Maybe he is just trying to deflect blame, but what is going on in Iraq now is so clearly the direct result of the ill conceived invasion that the Neo-cons cooked up that it really is rather pathetic of him to blabber on the way he is. the only thing worse that a villainous failure is a villainous failure who thinks he is a success.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 30, 2014 13:41:51 GMT -5
This is a sufficiently interesting claim that I'd like to see what lies behind it.
www.globalresearch.ca/barack-obama-and-saudi-arabia-behind-the-scenes-of-the-visit/5376447
rt.com/op-edge/obama-saudi-break-away-257/
Both the linked articles allude to a cooling of relations between Riyadh and Washington directly attributable to Obama's Middle East "policy" (I'm being kind). I fail to see how that's helped win the Saudis back. Wait, Obama bravely boarded a chopper in the dead of night and killed bin Laden with a tweet. I keep forgetting that part.
And, obviously, I'm missing something else in this Big Picture. It seems to me a lot like Obama's lost Egypt, lost Libya, lost Syria, and lost Iraq, and done the square root of nothing to keep Saudi Arabia unless we count encouraging al Qaeda to flourish against oppression in the Yemen and Bahrain, which still ends up looking like a big net negative to me.
Why shouldn't terrorists have the same inalienable rights to self-determination as the rest of us?
that was not my point. my point had to do with our bases in SA. sorry, tho- reading it back, that was about as clear as mud. edit: i think the idea of "terrorism as an enemy" is horribly flawed. there are some forms of terrorism we support. there are others that we have no opinion or stake in. and there are some that are against us. we should ONLY be focused on the latter.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jul 1, 2014 8:52:06 GMT -5
Just shows how clueless the old ba$tard is. This is HIS F'up, and his (their) fingerprints are all over it. Maybe he is just trying to deflect blame, but what is going on in Iraq now is so clearly the direct result of the ill conceived invasion that the Neo-cons cooked up that it really is rather pathetic of him to blabber on the way he is. the only thing worse that a villainous failure is a villainous failure who thinks he is a success. When did this thread switch to President Obama?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 1, 2014 11:21:33 GMT -5
the only thing worse that a villainous failure is a villainous failure who thinks he is a success. When did this thread switch to President Obama? in the pantheon of Villainous Failures, Obama barely registers.
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