Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jun 12, 2014 11:04:40 GMT -5
Let's remember this is a woman who loved her husband very much, is currently dealing with her spouse's terminal diagnosis and likely will be a grieving widow. All advice I've ever seen for someone who loses their spouse is to make no major changes for at a year.
Thank you, GG. This is where I sit right now. If stepmom wants to move after the dust settles, then we will make it happen. My biggest concern is for her future. She cannot depend upon her own kids for help, and where ever she settles (I very much doubt she will want to stay in the house indefinitely), I want to make sure she as the resources, and that the few resources she has left will not be mooched away by her kids. In reality, I know I don't have the power to stop her from doing this. She has to protect her own resources. But with my dad alive, he could cash flow vehicle purchases and his finances were not dependent upon my dad receiving timely payments. If she tries to help her kids this way, she could find herself in trouble. The way my Dad and his brothers protected my Grandmother from a sibling who was always asking for money was to convince my Grandmother to have them "invest" the money from the sale of the farm and send her the "interest" every month to cover her living expenses. That way the brother couldn't spend the car payment on beer, then hit Grandma up for money to make the car payment. Another version of this strategy would be to convince your stepmom to invest any money in something like an annuity, so she has lifetime income, but she doesn't have control of the principle to gift it to the kids. tskeeter, given the circumstances an annuity may be the right thing for the stepmom. I'm tagging @wxyz so he can link an annuity product he's investing in. Although it's not The Walk of the Penguin Mich's responsibility it's something she might like to know about. But in any case since we don't know what the stepmother's financial situation is, she really should talk to a good financial advisor. If not USAA, then a fee only advisor like we often recommend.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 12, 2014 11:06:31 GMT -5
Another version of this strategy would be to convince your stepmom to invest any money in something like an annuity, so she has lifetime income, but she doesn't have control of the principle to gift it to the kids.
I guess I need to look into this....
Some of this stuff is best done face to face. I really need to sit down and talk to both of them and tell them my concerns....or maybe I need to talk to my dad about my concerns. He has lived around her kids more than I have and has a better idea of how they 'work'.
I hate the idea of butting in, but I hate more the idea of my stepmom's kids taking advantage of her.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jun 12, 2014 11:08:53 GMT -5
The Walk of the Penguin Mich,
I'm guessing your stepmom is about 70? Yes, there's a point where people say "enough" their system is good enough. But in her case I'm guessing that she's not that financially sophisticated and is easy prey for the sponging children. Locking up her assets in an annuity may be a very good solution...if you can convince her.
ETA: After reading your post above, it sounds like the way to do it is to have Dad set one up for her.
Not sure when wxzy will be back on but here is a link to the annuity: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/thread/14441/long-term-investor?page=113 it's post 3360. I had a few follow up questions in the subsequent posts.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 12, 2014 11:18:41 GMT -5
ETA: After reading your post above, it sounds like the way to do it is to have Dad set one up for her.
This is the conclusion that I am coming to. I just don't know a lot about annuities, and I don't know exactly how much money we're talking about, I think somewhere around $50K so not a huge amount of money.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jun 12, 2014 11:29:41 GMT -5
ETA: After reading your post above, it sounds like the way to do it is to have Dad set one up for her.This is the conclusion that I am coming to. I just don't know a lot about annuities, and I don't know exactly how much money we're talking about, I think somewhere around $50K so not a huge amount of money. They only have $50k saved? No IRAs or anything else? That just seems, really really low. DFIL was squirreling away money for 3rd wife (he had done the same for wife #2). Between the sale of her primary house, the money DFIL had set aside for her and the equity in the Palm Desert condo, she was well north of $500k when he passed...in 2001. Of course all that money was invested in CDs with Dean Witter "because she trusted him".
ETA: 3rd Wife also had a CA teacher's pension of her own. DFIL Navy pension went to wife #2 and their divorce decree stated that he would maintain a life insurance policy for her. Wife #3 was also not eligible for any SS benefits DFIL might have had because they were only married for 7 years.
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kjto1
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Post by kjto1 on Jun 12, 2014 11:43:57 GMT -5
Mich - what would stop her from putting in her will that her 25% of the house to go to her kids?
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jun 12, 2014 11:51:10 GMT -5
Mich - what would stop her from putting in her will that her 25% of the house to go to her kids? It's driven by the granting language in the Grant Deed. The house goes to the Dad, stepmom, mich and the siblings with the right of survivorship. So when one person dies his/her share goes to the remaining owners. Stepmom's kids are not in the chain of title unless stepmom outlives mich's father, mich and her siblings.
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kjto1
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Post by kjto1 on Jun 12, 2014 12:06:30 GMT -5
Thanks, Bonny!
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 12, 2014 12:09:40 GMT -5
ETA: After reading your post above, it sounds like the way to do it is to have Dad set one up for her.This is the conclusion that I am coming to. I just don't know a lot about annuities, and I don't know exactly how much money we're talking about, I think somewhere around $50K so not a huge amount of money. They only have $50k saved? No IRAs or anything else? That just seems, really really low. DFIL was squirreling away money for 3rd wife (he had done the same for wife #2). Between the sale of her primary house, the money DFIL had set aside for her and the equity in the Palm Desert condo, she was well north of $500k when he passed...in 2001. Of course all that money was invested in CDs with Dean Witter "because she trusted him".
ETA: 3rd Wife also had a CA teacher's pension of her own. DFIL Navy pension went to wife #2 and their divorce decree stated that he would maintain a life insurance policy for her. Wife #3 was also not eligible for any SS benefits DFIL might have had because they were only married for 7 years.
Dad is saving over 2/3 of his retirement income right now, and has been taking RMDs from his IRA (he's 80). They do not have a huge amount of expenses, if I had to hazard a guess, their expenses are way less than $1000/mo right now including everything. They really don't have any of their wants not met. That is just what my dad has. I have no idea what his wife's accounts look like, or whether or not she has any IRAs herself. Both are as unsophisticated with regards to investing as they are with banking. That's another story though.....
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 12, 2014 12:10:58 GMT -5
Mich - what would stop her from putting in her will that her 25% of the house to go to her kids? If the house is kept until she dies, her 25% goes to us. She cannot will it to her kids.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 12, 2014 12:13:10 GMT -5
A female age 70 who begins to receive income payments immediately will get about $300 per month for life from an annuity costing $50,000. I'm liking this idea more and more......
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 12, 2014 12:17:13 GMT -5
Another version of this strategy would be to convince your stepmom to invest any money in something like an annuity, so she has lifetime income, but she doesn't have control of the principle to gift it to the kids.I guess I need to look into this.... Some of this stuff is best done face to face. I really need to sit down and talk to both of them and tell them my concerns....or maybe I need to talk to my dad about my concerns. He has lived around her kids more than I have and has a better idea of how they 'work'.
I hate the idea of butting in, but I hate more the idea of my stepmom's kids taking advantage of her. Not to bash on anyone, but you'd be surprised at how much and how quickly people can change, especially when they think their back is against the wall. I've posted before about my BFF in college who's father died halfway through her sophmore year. I'm sure her Dad never thought her step-mom would cut her off in favor of her younger half-siblings but that's exactly what happened. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 12, 2014 12:22:41 GMT -5
I'm sure her Dad never thought her step-mom would cut her off in favor of her younger half-siblings but that's exactly what happened. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.
I don't *need* anything from my father's estate. I am not dependent upon him and the one thing (family home) has been dealt with already. As me and my sibs are in the majority, we could force the sale of the house and be done with everything.
It is not in stepmom's best interest to do a 180, me and my sibs can help her more than her own kids could.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 12, 2014 12:23:28 GMT -5
Wow. So when your dad passes everyone (2 sibs?) get a 1/4 interest. And the last person alive gets the whole thing.That's the way I read it. However, in the back of my mind I had the idea that my dad's wife could live in the house as long as she wanted to or until her death. At that point, the house would be put on the market as neither me nor my siblings (yes, I have 2) have any interest in maintaining a stake in upstate NY with my dad no longer there. I don't think this has been addressed elsewhere but you have 4 folks, only one of whom (with a very limited income) will be living in the house. If any one of the 4 who have an ownership interest fails to maintian the property (or pay the taxes) all four will suffer. I've seen this happen with family vacation homes where one sibling will happily use the property, but never have the funds for repairs, taxes etc. Not to say you Dad's wife will do this, but it's another possiblity to consider building some protection against (especially if she may be the type to help out her kids over getting the gutters cleaned or roof fixed).
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 12, 2014 12:33:45 GMT -5
If any one of the 4 who have an ownership interest fails to maintian the property (or pay the taxes) all four will suffer. I've seen this happen with family vacation homes where one sibling will happily use the property, but never have the funds for repairs, taxes etc.
If this happens, then I will cover the costs and will get reimbursed after the house sells.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jun 12, 2014 13:05:09 GMT -5
Wow. So when your dad passes everyone (2 sibs?) get a 1/4 interest. And the last person alive gets the whole thing.That's the way I read it. However, in the back of my mind I had the idea that my dad's wife could live in the house as long as she wanted to or until her death. At that point, the house would be put on the market as neither me nor my siblings (yes, I have 2) have any interest in maintaining a stake in upstate NY with my dad no longer there. I don't think this has been addressed elsewhere but you have 4 folks, only one of whom (with a very limited income) will be living in the house. If any one of the 4 who have an ownership interest fails to maintian the property (or pay the taxes) all four will suffer. I've seen this happen with family vacation homes where one sibling will happily use the property, but never have the funds for repairs, taxes etc. Not to say you Dad's wife will do this, but it's another possiblity to consider building some protection against (especially if she may be the type to help out her kids over getting the gutters cleaned or roof fixed). Yes we discuss it in post #36. They need to reach some kind of written agreement which spells out the responsibilities. No matter how well intentioned, it's not fair that stepmom gets the benefit of living in the house but only has to pay 1/4 of the costs.
I think it's an opportunity to lay out some ground rules (such as her kids can't move in, smoke on the premises or use drugs while they are there). Failure to either reach an agreement or failure for any of the other owners to uphold their end of the bargain is support to force a sale, especially if it threatens the others' interests.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 12, 2014 13:11:50 GMT -5
I think it's an opportunity to lay out some ground rules (such as her kids can't move in, smoke on the premises or use drugs while they are there). Failure to either reach an agreement or failure for any of the other owners to uphold their end of the bargain is support to force a sale, especially if it threatens the others' interests.
I will probably be making a trip out there sometime this summer (at least it's a nicer place in July or Aug than it is in Jan) and will be making noises about this.
It seems to me that this is best that this is done in person.
I hate being the oldest!
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jun 12, 2014 14:04:04 GMT -5
The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:
I hate being the oldest Lol, welcome to the club!
My other favorite sayings are;
It sucks to be the responsible one! and
I'm tired of being the experiment!
But honestly I don't think I would have it any other way. If things were left to my Bro my mother's estate settlement would have been a bigger mess than it was. And with respect to my father's situation it's actually an honor to be able to help...and an eye opener how little some people live on...and still get by.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 12, 2014 15:33:35 GMT -5
I think it's an opportunity to lay out some ground rules (such as her kids can't move in, smoke on the premises or use drugs while they are there). Failure to either reach an agreement or failure for any of the other owners to uphold their end of the bargain is support to force a sale, especially if it threatens the others' interests.I will probably be making a trip out there sometime this summer (at least it's a nicer place in July or Aug than it is in Jan) and will be making noises about this. It seems to me that this is best that this is done in person. I hate being the oldest! Yeah- welcome to the oldest club. I think it sounds like an opportunity to start a huge fight with her and her kids which may not end well. I would urge you to go for the amicable divorce. Try to get her OUT. And I will say that I urge this because I function well with this thing called CLARITY. I hate muddy water, and muddled situations. I don't think I could sleep at night if I owned a house, and someone else lived there-- but there was no lease, no formal agreement of any kind, and frankly-- I would not want to go ask for this kind of agreement from family. Maybe your other sibs would want to buy you out? Same difference. Gets you out of the situation. These things rarely go well. That's why people say business / money and family do not mix.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 12, 2014 15:44:27 GMT -5
OP I understand... So if your siblings and you are in need for nothing how about just "gifting" her the house after your father passes?I explained this further up. The house was paid off before my mother died, and the down payment for it was the inheritance my mom got from her mother. The idea of my mom's inheritance winding up in those losers hands galls me, and tht ish at would happen if we gifted the house to their mother. It is not all the money, but the principle. You're probably worried for a reason. Intuition isn't supernatural, it's the knowledge of some relevant fact, or set of facts-- often that a person is not even aware that they know. You have a read on the situation, you expect it to deteriorate, and honestly-- all the emotional angst over her weirdo "kids" notwithstanding, I'd rather GIFT her the house than be involved in this situation.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 13, 2014 7:22:18 GMT -5
What about when you go out there, talk to your dad and then to her about coming to live closer to you so you can keep an eye on her and help her as she ages? The house can be sold after your dad dies. Everyone gets their cut and she gets cared for by someone who seems to genuinely care for her. I intend to live close to my kids so that if I need something, they can help me. Not close enough to be a burden but close enough so that if I need some help, I'm not a huge burden. I like the system my one older friend has. Every day at 5pm she turns her front porch light on. Her SIL drives by her house on his way home. If its on, she's okay. If it isn't, he stops in to make sure she's okay. She turns it off at 6 pm. On his way to work, it needs to be on again or he stops. That way, of something were to happen to her, the max would be 12 hours or so. But she has her privacy and her daughter has peace of mind.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Jun 13, 2014 7:48:57 GMT -5
Hi WalkofthePenguin, I'm very sorry about your Dad's illness. I hope that he is as pain-free and lucid and possible during this time. We are seeing a similar inheritance issue taking place on my daughter's father's side of the family, but everything is in an iron-clad trust, so we don't know if she will inherit anything or not. Her grandmother is 95 y.o.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 13, 2014 10:59:20 GMT -5
What about when you go out there, talk to your dad and then to her about coming to live closer to you so you can keep an eye on her and help her as she ages? The house can be sold after your dad dies. Everyone gets their cut and she gets cared for by someone who seems to genuinely care for her. I intend to live close to my kids so that if I need something, they can help me. Not close enough to be a burden but close enough so that if I need some help, I'm not a huge burden. I like the system my one older friend has. Every day at 5pm she turns her front porch light on. Her SIL drives by her house on his way home. If its on, she's okay. If it isn't, he stops in to make sure she's okay. She turns it off at 6 pm. On his way to work, it needs to be on again or he stops. That way, of something were to happen to her, the max would be 12 hours or so. But she has her privacy and her daughter has peace of mind. That won't happen, Zib. I don't even have to ask. Step mom grew up in this area of the country and she knows everyone. I don't see her moving 3000 miles away from her family and friends. And believe me, I do NOT want her kids out here! I just don't need that kind of drama in my life. I know she and dad talked briefly about moving to FL, as I do know she is tired of upstate NY winters. But dad has friends there and I think she would have been more amenable to doing something like this. I would have no problem giving step mom a home out here. Lord knows we have the room. And if things deteriorate, getting her out of NY to decompress isn't a bad idea. This town is small enough that it wouldn't freak her out. She will not drive in either Burlington or Albany.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 13, 2014 11:02:37 GMT -5
Well, maybe she will be more amenable. She can't be totally clueless as to her own children. I love mine, too, and would do almost anything for them, but I come first. They're adults now.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 13, 2014 11:19:21 GMT -5
No, she is not totally clueless....especially after what happened earlier this year.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 13, 2014 11:23:18 GMT -5
Then she needs to go to someone who obviously cares for her and about her. You need to make that clear to her that you won't be able to be at leave if you don't know she is well cared for and you can do that for her.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 13, 2014 11:23:38 GMT -5
Be at peace.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 13, 2014 13:15:49 GMT -5
Thanks, Zib....
Just talking this through and listening to other opinions has given me ideas. I'll just have to see how this plays out.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jun 13, 2014 15:03:41 GMT -5
No, she is not totally clueless....especially after what happened earlier this year. What happened earlier this year? Did I miss something im a previous post?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 13, 2014 17:08:09 GMT -5
Dad was in the hospital and her daughter went against medical advice and wound up in the ER....again. Long story short, daughter (the one who is an addict) had gastric bypass surgery. She discovered that if she ate certain things, it would put her in the ER and get her admitted with pain meds.
The month I was in NY, every time dad had a crisis, daughter damaged herself and tried to divert the attention away. I think she was admitted 4x in a month and every single time it was caused by something she did to herself. The hospital realized this and would no longer deal with her, so they turfed her out to Albany, 150 miles down the road.
So daughter would call, all drugged up wanting her mom (who is a nervous driver, at best) to drive through the 30 days of snow that hit the area, to come to Albany. At this point, we were going from doctor to doctor with my dad trying to either figure out what was wrong, or clear him for surgery and no doctor was in agreement.
Oh, and there was one car available. I refused to rent a car at my expense to be to her beck and call, and I really wasn't game for driving in phenomenally crappy weather through mountains. But daughter made her mom feel like shit because she wasn't running down the northwaay every day. It go so bad that I started to intercept phone calls.
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