Replacing the HVAC unit: another household debate

[gooddecisions]

We're on an HVAC service plan for the house we bought this summer. It's got the original unit from 1997. The HVAC service people have been getting in my husband's head about the urgency in replacing it and provided quotes. They gave me the same song and dance 3 years ago in our previous residence, also from 1997 (currently rented). It's been working fine for the last 3 years and I have the money to replace it when it breaks.

I don't replace my cars until they fall apart and my current car is a 1998, figuring that if I replace a car every 10 years- I would end up buying 6 cars over the course of 60 years. If I waited until they fell apart- at least 15+, then it would be more like 3-4 cars. In my mind, that would save $60-100,000+ in car purchase monies per person.

So, it doesn't seem like a big leap to just wait until the HVAC breaks before replacing it to minimize the number of total units needed over a lifetime. Yes, it's a little inconvenient when it happens, but it's not anything that we couldn't live with.

What are your thoughts about HVAC replacement?

[jeep108]

We didn't replace ours until it started to break a lot. 

[haapai]

Divide the cost of the new unit by it's expected useful life.  Use this calculation to estimate what the existing unit is worth.  Compare that number to the costs of patching it up and the excess costs of replacing it at an inopportune time. 

It's possible that the existing unit has so little life left in it that it is worth replacing in the slow season.  Or maybe not. 

[gooddecisions]

It hasn't actually broken down yet to even need to be fixed. This latest visit from HVAC is just the 6 month service visit. So, it's not like a broken down car where you can consider the cost of repairs. I figured if it broke, we would cross the bridge to replace it instead of repairing it, since it is considered well past its prime. But, instead we'll probably replace it now because I'm wrong. It sounds like we're looking at $15K to replace it.

[alabamagal]

Wait until it breaks. 

Look at what they get out of it when you buy a new one.  Install costs, plus a service plan on a new unit that likely will not need repair for a while.  With an old unit, you may have multiple calls  a year.

I live in a place where A/C is critical 8 months out of the year and would still do that.  Last time I had to replace mine, new one was in in 2 days.

[resolution]

My recommendation is to keep the HVAC people away from your husband.

[gooddecisions]

Feb 6, 2014 13:15:29 GMT -5 resolution said:

My recommendation is to keep the HVAC people away from your husband.

Too late, he's been talking his ear off in the kitchen for the past 90 minutes. It's all I can do not to walk in and pitch my argument. I don't really care enough to make a big stink over it.

[doxieluvr]

We did not replace ours until it needed a $1500 part. Replacing it was $4k.

[haapai]

If it's the unit in your residence, not the rental, the decreased operational costs should also be considered.  I don't have any feel for how much more efficient HVAC units have gotten in the last 15 years, but it might be quite relevant.  I know that the improvements over the last 30 years have been incredible. 

Since you seem to have two units of the same age, you have twice as much incentive to build spreadsheets. 

[sapphire12]

I replaced my furnace when it started making lawn mower sounds. Prior to that, I didn't have any problems with it. But, I didn't want the furnace to actually die on me. I'm guessing I was close though. The other good thing for me is that the original furnace was too small for the house. The new one heats up nicely. I have natural gas so I only needed an inside unit. Heat bills have been lower with the newer furnace.

As for AC, that will be replaced when it dies. There is no danger of pipes freezing when the AC dies. I can tolerate the heat, much better than the cold. My unit is also from 1997.

I'm with you on the cars, though my first car didn't make it 15 years; it was 12.5. I felt like I got my money's worth.
The current truck will be 10 later this month. I have far fewer miles on this one than I did on my Accord at this age. I'd like to keep my truck an additional 5 years. I really do not like buying cars.

[Deleted]

We had a 900 pound cast iron oil fired boiler from 1949 that we replaced a couple of years ago.   The burner was not original, but the boiler was.   We decided to replace it before it died because we knew we wanted to replace it with a high efficiency gas boiler which was a job that took a couple of days.  We didn't want it to break in the winter and be without heat for a couple of days. 

[mcsangel2]

Feb 6, 2014 13:21:13 GMT -5 doxieluvr said:

We did not replace ours until it needed a $1500 part. Replacing it was $4k.

Ditto. I don't know where you live, OP, but dang, I am really impressed that your unit is 17 years old. The one that died that we replaced in August was 11 yo. But we live in Phoenix. Apparently the average lifespan out here is 10-15 years.

As stressful and awful as that experience was (it was 3 days before they could replace it, got up to 96 degrees in the house, all three cats went into heat distress), I would never consider actually replacing an entire unit until it was good and broken!

[gooddecisions]

The quote for my other residence (townhouse) is also $4K. This house is a lot larger and requires multiple units for different floors.

[The Captain]

I'm in the Chicago area and the supposed average lifespan is 15-20 years.  Our last house had one that was 25 years before it was replaced.  I will say the difference in energy consumption was huge.

We put in an all new HVAC system when we moved into our current house 10+ years ago.  Still going strong.

[gooddecisions]

I would have liked to understand the efficiency gains that would be made for replacing. But, that wasn't shared as far as what to expect from the monthly heating and power bill. I do know that our current AC units in both places still take freon, which is an issue in itself. We will probably switch from thermal heat to gas heat. Thermal heat has not been a good experience this winter because when the heat is on in the house, our showers aren't very hot. Also, our hot water tank will be smaller with the new system, so there should be some savings there.

[phil5185]

But we live in Phoenix. Apparently the average lifespan out here is 10-15 years.

Ours last closer to 20 or 25 years in Phoenix. . We put a new heat pump on a rental house about 8 months ago, $3510. The old unit was original, 1979, ie 34 years.  I never had annual services done, had maybe 4 or 5 service calls in the last 10 yrs - condenser fans, etc.

Don't remember the ages on the other rental houses but all were 20 yrs or more, we replaced a couple of them as a condition of the house sale, buyers would not buy a house with the original 20+ yr old AC. (But the old units were operating.)

We put a new unit on our home about 15 years ago ($4400) - the original was 26 years old.

I use all-in-one roof-mount units - they seem to last better than the split evap - condenser set-ups. As for service - in Phx we get flooded with calls to do the $29.99 service, the $59.99 service the $89.99 service, yada. Modern units have sealed bearings, no service needed - and I've had units go 30 years w/o adding refrigerant (same as your fridge). So I never do periodic service, in fact no one (including me) has touched the 15 yr-old unit on our home (I wonder if I'll wish that I hadn't said that??)

[Bonny]

Feb 6, 2014 14:19:51 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

But we live in Phoenix. Apparently the average lifespan out here is 10-15 years.

Ours last closer to 20 or 25 years in Phoenix. . We put a new heat pump on a rental house about 8 months ago, $3510. The old unit was original, 1979, ie 34 years.  I never had annual services done, had maybe 4 or 5 service calls in the last 10 yrs - condenser fans, etc.

Don't remember the ages on the other rental houses but all were 20 yrs or more, we replaced a couple of them as a condition of the house sale, buyers would not buy a house with the original 20+ yr old AC. (But the old units were operating.)

We put a new unit on our home about 15 years ago ($4400) - the original was 26 years old.

I use all-in-one roof-mount units - they seem to last better than the split evap - condenser set-ups. As for service - in Phx we get flooded with calls to do the $29.99 service, the $59.99 service the $89.99 service, yada. Modern units have sealed bearings, no service needed - and I've had units go 30 years w/o adding refrigerant (same as your fridge). So I never do periodic service, in fact no one (including me) has touched the 15 yr-old unit on our home (I wonder if I'll wish that I hadn't said that??)

We do the annual servicing to keep the warranty in effect for our AZ house. Last year our guy did wind up filing a repair claim. He also cleans it out when the pack rats figure out how to get in.  Thankfully it's the only house that has A/C.

[Deleted]

If the unit is going on 17 years, I'd probably get proactive about it and make the switch off-season.  Sure, maybe you can squeeze a little time out of it, but it's going to break when it's cold out.  Being without a/c is one thing, but being without heat is much tougher.  

[phil5185]

Being without a/c is one thing, but being without heat is much tougher.

Maybe in OP's area. In Phx, going w/o AC for 3 or 4 days in 115 degree weather is really rough - involves visiting malls & going to movies by day - and sleeping in the back yard by night.   (actually sleeping outside is OK, only 80 degrees at nite & we don't have mosquitoes). 
As for being w/o heat - no problem, a Carhart Hoodie is plenty.

[phil5185]

We put a new unit on our home about 15 years ago ($4400) - the original was 26 years old.

I should mention (this could affect OP's decision) - when we replaced the 1975 unit with 1999 unit, our heating/cooling costs were almost cut in half.  And that's apples-to-apples, both units were 4 Ton, roof-mounted.

Our electric bill for 2012 was $1404.  I estimate about $600 for H/AC & $800 for H20  heater, oven, stove, washer, drier, lites, TV, yada - it's a total electric house, 2000 feet, 4bd3ba.  Wish I had the pre-1999 numbers but I recall being astonished at the change, both summer & winter.

[beenherebefore]

In which part of the Country do you live? Is your heating system attached to the Air?

[phil5185]

In which part of the Country do you live? Is your heating system attached to the Air?

beenhere - not sure if your ? is for me or for OP - but I'll give my answer -

We're in Arizona - we have a Heat Pump, it is refrigeration in the summer and reverses in the winter to heat the house.

[beenherebefore]

Thanks, we're in Las Vegas and we upgraded the HVAC system 3 years ago, the house was built in 1996 and the AC was always running and very inefficient. After we replaced it and upgraded the motor, it's much more comfortable, uses less energy and cools the house down a lot faster. The 8 year warrenty was good, too.

There was a change to the Freon or coolant regulations so that's something to take into consideration.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"It's possible that the existing unit has so little life left in it that it is worth replacing in the slow season.":::...

I didn't replace mine until it broke; and I was very fortunate with the timing.  It was before the summer, and just in time for the $1,500 tax credit.  You can roll the dice and hope for the best.  But if that puppy breaks in July, you won't have much room to negotiate.

...:::"I don't have any feel for how much more efficient HVAC units have gotten in the last 15 years, but it might be quite relevant.":::...

Yes.  Mine was replaced with a unit that uses Puron instead of Freon.  My bills went down, and the unit hasn't given me any problems.

[Apple]

I just had a very similar discussion on another board.

I've repaired my 30(?) year old ac/furnace four times (it is forced air/gas heat).  The house is over 2300 sq ft, we can spend weeks over 100° in the summer, and have cold winters.  Highest my electric bill has been in any summer was about $100 for one or two months, usually my max bill in summer is $50-$75 (can't remember what was going on that summer).  I also have a freezer, two refrigerators, etc...  So, yes, I understand there are more energy efficient units out there, but I think it would take a long time for me to recover any expense in energy savings.

The first time was the "furnace ignitor element". About a $15 part. I could see that it had burnt open.

Second time was the PC board. $200 part.

Third time was the flame sensor, $10 (I was told "those NEVER go out", and that I must be wrong, but I was right...)

Fourth time was the blower motor, $175(?) part.

All this was spread out over 10 years. So, about $40 a year to keep it running well. It has many, many years left.

However, I did do the troubleshooting myself and went to the repair place in town to get the parts, so that saved money.

If mine went out and really did need a replacement, I've got wall heaters and baseboard heaters on both upper floors.  In the summer, I have a portable ac unit I could use, a window ac unit in the kitchen (they left everything in even after installing the central air unit).  It all works, so no extreme discomfort while waiting.  An inconvenience, yes, but I won't really be too cold or too hot.

I'd ignore the push for replacement myself.

[Anne_in_VA]

We've got the same issue with our HVAC company. We had a minor issue and they came out to do a service call. The unit is about 8 years old and they wanted us to replace it "since they only last about 10 years or so". I don't think so! We decided not to cave into their pressure tactics and will wait until it breaks.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Our furnace (gas, single stage, supposed HE) died at the end of Oct.  Actually, we discovered it was dead at the end of Oct. when we tried to turn it on.  It probably died in late spring.  I think it was 19-20 years old. 

Cost of a dual stage, HE, gas replacement was just under $4K with a few hundred in tax credits and rebates.  I'll have to ask DH about the bills.  He's not been bitching about $250+ utility bills this winter and it's been freaking cold here.  Our utility bills are gas and electric combined.  Our AC was not replaced at the same time. 

[chiver78]

Feb 6, 2014 13:48:55 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

Feb 6, 2014 13:21:13 GMT -5 doxieluvr said:

We did not replace ours until it needed a $1500 part. Replacing it was $4k.

Ditto. I don't know where you live, OP, but dang, I am really impressed that your unit is 17 years old. The one that died that we replaced in August was 11 yo. But we live in Phoenix. Apparently the average lifespan out here is 10-15 years.

As stressful and awful as that experience was (it was 3 days before they could replace it, got up to 96 degrees in the house, all three cats went into heat distress), I would never consider actually replacing an entire unit until it was good and broken!

this is what the field tech that's been out to my house twice so far this winter's telling me about units in general. mine is 22 years old, and he ws the guy that did the original install on it when my complex was built.

so far this winter, I've had three calls for no heat. the first two were quick fixes (at $200 a pop for the diagnostic visit) while the 3rd required a $150 part to be ordered. that part got installed yesterday - no extra charge for the visit.

I'm hoping to be able to sell my place this year, and I really don't want to have to replace the system while I'm still here. if I end up having to do so, it's going to be the least expensive system I can get away with.



OP - keep your DH away from the sales guy as best you can. if you haven't needed even a repair yet, you've still got plenty of time to plan this out.

[zibazinski]

When you do replace it, get a scratch and dent model. I saved almost 2k on each unit. I replaced the one on my own home and then asked the guy to keep an eye on another one for me for my rental. One came up a few days after the one in my rental died so perfect timing! Saved huge on electric bills, like half and the air was so much cooler.