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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 24, 2013 14:44:28 GMT -5
A little background.... My sister and I have an interesting relationship. Despite the fact that both of us have very similar backgrounds, we have taken different paths in life. She left a lucrative job with a near 6 figure salary (in the early 1990s) to raise her 4 kids. Her choice, but I would be incredibly uncomfortable with that scenario and I have kept my mouth shut about that. Over the years, she has gotten increasingly more religious. Again, her choice but I don't drink the kool-aid so I just let those topics roll off my back. I don't agree with what she's teaching her kids and have kept my mouth shut about that, despite the fact that some of the stuff that she tells me about her oldest daughter would have me driving her to PP in a heartbeat. Her daughter is thisclose to being a sexually active 17 year old, if she's not already. My sister teaches abstinence. I called her yesterday at her request so she could make sure that my phone# was in her new phone. After a little chit chat, she asked me if I had read her blog. I had. She asked me what I thought (the blog entry was about her 17 year old daughter's creative writing class, where the lyrics to Blurred Lines were dissected). The teacher (female) had shown the uncut version of the video and my sister was appalled. I hadn't seen the video, so went looking myself. I thought it was a less than smart thing for the teacher to do, but I understood her motivation. She was trying to use current topics in order to engage the kids and I told my sister this. My sister is furious about this and is ready to take it to the school board. The only thing that is holding her back is that I think she is worried about the repercussions on her daughter.
So I got a lecture on what her kids were and were not allowed to wear to school. I pointed out to her that it has been <ahem> 35+ years since I stepped foot into a high school classroom and my basis of knowledge is limited to this what I remember. I also pointed out to her that I had stopped offering opinions as I have heard far too many times that "you don't know how it is because you don't have kids". I only offered an opinion on this because she asked me to and I did so reluctantly. I pointed out to her that her daughter is far more advanced sexually at 17 than either of us were at that age, and from some of the reading that I have done, many kids that age are. I also pointed out to her that in our era, Madonna produced the same results from parents in some of her videos back then that Robin Thicke is today. She got off the phone quickly and said she'd call me back. She hasn't. But I know this subject is going to come up again and I think that this is just a subject that we need to agree to disagree on. But I know my sister and know that she is going to force me to her way of thinking....or try to anyway. Some things are just not worth arguing over and IMO this is one of them. Any suggestions on how to divert?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 24, 2013 14:46:28 GMT -5
We're done talking about this. We don't agree. How about them Red Sox?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2013 14:49:58 GMT -5
"They're your kids, it's your choice. You don't need my permission"
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 24, 2013 14:50:36 GMT -5
We're done talking about this. We don't agree. How about them Red Sox
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 24, 2013 14:54:18 GMT -5
Drink some of the koolaid?
JUST KIDDING!
Your sister does not have to accept the overly-sexualized message our society sends to kids today. There is nothing wrong with advising our kids to wait to engage in adult activities until they are fully matured.
However, it is SMART to make sure they have a complete understanding of how the plumbing and biology works and to give our kids as much protection as possible, should they make certain choices. I know some folks think that's encouraging certain behaviours but I don't agree.
The fact that your sister is asking your opinion at least (to me) indicates she is not 100% certain of her position, and is willing to consider other views. I'd consider that a step in the right direction.
Good luck!
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Oct 24, 2013 14:55:22 GMT -5
We're done talking about this. We don't agree. How about them Red Sox
this is the path I have had to take with my mom on certain topics. as soon as she starts talking about them, I just find something else to talk about. if she insists on that topic, I calmly tell her that we don't agree, and that I'm not going to discuss it with her anymore. if she continues, I hang up the phone. sorry, Mich. personally, I would be looking for a way to make sure that my niece was getting appropriate and accurate information (yes, even without her mother's consent) because at 17, she'll be legally able to obtain all that info soon enough anyway. at 17 she's physically an adult. she should at least be equipped with the same information about her body and how to protect it that the rest of us are working with. flame away.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 24, 2013 14:56:32 GMT -5
Unfortunately, my sister is like a terrier when she is trying to prove a point. I actually tried some of those suggestions before I opened my mouth. I tried to bean dip her and she was having none of it. What I *should* have done was manufacture some sort of excuse to get off the phone, but Monday morning quarterbacking isn't helping at this point.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Oct 24, 2013 14:57:08 GMT -5
Mich, I think you've made it clear to your sister that there is no middle ground for the two of you. I think you have the more sensible approach here, even though you don't have kids. You seem to understand that 1) times have indeed changed, 2) the daughter is, at age 17, close to being a grown-up and will do what she will do, and at some point, mom needs to let go, 3) your sister's head is up her proverbial butt end, so to speak, when it comes to having even a vague understanding of what is taught in the schools today and what kids face. Mind you, I'm not passing judgement on either mother or daughter. Just pointing out that the two of them have very different realities. Mom will not have control over daughter's behavior much longer, if in fact she still does. I think when you said this: <<She asked me what I thought (the blog entry was about her 17 year old daughter's creative writing class, where the lyrics to Blurred Lines were dissected). The teacher (female) had shown the uncut version of the video and my sister was appalled. I hadn't seen the video, so went looking myself. I thought it was a less than smart thing for the teacher to do, but I understood her motivation. She was trying to use current topics in order to engage the kids and I told my sister this. My sister is furious about this and is ready to take it to the school board. The only thing that is holding her back is that I think she is worried about the repercussions on her daughter.
So I got a lecture on what her kids were and were not allowed to wear to school. I pointed out to her that it has been <ahem> 35+ years since I stepped foot into a high school classroom and my basis of knowledge is limited to this what I remember. I also pointed out to her that I had stopped offering opinions as I have heard far too many times that "you don't know how it is because you don't have kids". I only offered an opinion on this because she asked me to and I did so reluctantly.
I pointed out to her that her daughter is far more advanced sexually at 17 than either of us were at that age, and from some of the reading that I have done, many kids that age are. I also pointed out to her that in our era, Madonna produced the same results from parents in some of her videos back then that Robin Thicke is today.>>you pretty much took a hammer to the nice, respectable wall your sister thought she built around her family. I don't think there's anything wrong with what you said. Probably gave your sis a case of the faints, though. The thought of her dear, sweet, innocent girl child...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2013 14:58:04 GMT -5
Young women can get their own birth control without parents knowledge at 16. Paying might be an issue, but confidentiality and access aren't.
ETA - In Ontario that is.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 24, 2013 14:59:34 GMT -5
We're done talking about this. We don't agree. How about them Red Sox
this is the path I have had to take with my mom on certain topics. as soon as she starts talking about them, I just find something else to talk about. if she insists on that topic, I calmly tell her that we don't agree, and that I'm not going to discuss it with her anymore. if she continues, I hang up the phone. sorry, Mich. personally, I would be looking for a way to make sure that my niece was getting appropriate and accurate information (yes, even without her mother's consent) because at 17, she'll be legally able to obtain all that info soon enough anyway. at 17 she's physically an adult. she should at least be equipped with the same information about her body and how to protect it that the rest of us are working with. flame away. No flames here. One of my good friends was the "stepmother" (she lived with the father, never married him) of a teen girl. The teen girl became sexually active at 15, and her mother found out because of the condom wrapper in the garbage. Mom refused to let the girl go on the pill because "it would be condoning sex." My friend saw that she got on the pill on dad's insurance and dad's permission. To this day, even though my friend and dad have broken up, she calls my friend for sex questions and concerns instead of her mother.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 24, 2013 14:59:50 GMT -5
Your sister does not have to accept the overly-sexualized message our society sends to kids today. There is nothing wrong with advising our kids to wait to engage in adult activities until they are fully matured.
I understand her logic. But at this point, when her daughter was 16 years old, she was slipping boys into her bedroom for a booty call. As a 17 year old, she has been drinking and the booty calls are in hotel rooms.
Her abstinence messages are not getting through IMO.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 24, 2013 15:02:37 GMT -5
Your sister does not have to accept the overly-sexualized message our society sends to kids today. There is nothing wrong with advising our kids to wait to engage in adult activities until they are fully matured. I understand her logic. But at this point, when her daughter was 16 years old, she was slipping boys into her bedroom for a booty call. As a 17 year old, she has been drinking and the booty calls are in hotel rooms. Her abstinence messages are not getting through IMO. they aren't having sex, they're praying. listen to them say "oh, God."
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Oct 24, 2013 15:03:29 GMT -5
booty calls with multiple boys at 16? her abstinence messages are absolutely not getting through. ugh... Swamp, that's awesome that your friend was and still is there for the younger woman.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 24, 2013 15:03:50 GMT -5
Believe me, if I was anywhere near my niece right now, I'd be dragging her ass to PP. And my sister would probably disown me for that action. I'd still do it.
My niece is a beautiful and very smart young woman. I would hate to see her screw up her life by doing something stupid.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 24, 2013 15:03:52 GMT -5
I think I'd just tell sis there can be no meeting of the minds between the two of you over this issue. If she insists on continuing to caterwaul, I'd just tell her I'm hanging up, and that I love her. Then, I'd hang up.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Oct 24, 2013 15:04:34 GMT -5
Since the bean dip isn't working. I say be more direct. "If you are looking for validation of your decisions/actions/beliefs, I can not agree with you. But it's your life, your choice and I respect that. However, I would make different decisions in the same situation, and you need to respect that as well." Then pass the bean dip again.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 24, 2013 15:05:33 GMT -5
Your sister does not have to accept the overly-sexualized message our society sends to kids today. There is nothing wrong with advising our kids to wait to engage in adult activities until they are fully matured. I understand her logic. But at this point, when her daughter was 16 years old, she was slipping boys into her bedroom for a booty call. As a 17 year old, she has been drinking and the booty calls are in hotel rooms. Her abstinence messages are not getting through IMO. Good grief! Sis has already lost this battle. She just doesn't want to recognize it. There's nothing you can do to make her recognize it. She's got her head in the sand and she's determined to keep it there.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 24, 2013 15:07:17 GMT -5
Your sister does not have to accept the overly-sexualized message our society sends to kids today. There is nothing wrong with advising our kids to wait to engage in adult activities until they are fully matured. I understand her logic. But at this point, when her daughter was 16 years old, she was slipping boys into her bedroom for a booty call. As a 17 year old, she has been drinking and the booty calls are in hotel rooms. Her abstinence messages are not getting through IMO. Whoops! I must've missed that part...
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Oct 24, 2013 15:09:17 GMT -5
She may not recognize it until there is a baby. Maybe you can try and talk with the niece about safe sex. Somebody needs to.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Oct 24, 2013 15:10:24 GMT -5
Your sister does not have to accept the overly-sexualized message our society sends to kids today. There is nothing wrong with advising our kids to wait to engage in adult activities until they are fully matured. I understand her logic. But at this point, when her daughter was 16 years old, she was slipping boys into her bedroom for a booty call. As a 17 year old, she has been drinking and the booty calls are in hotel rooms. Her abstinence messages are not getting through IMO. There is indeed nothing wrong with advising the kids to wait. But advising and expecting them to take the advice are two different things. And clearly, mom and daughter are at opposite ends of this see-saw. The daughter may be drinking and booty-calling just to spite mom; it likely has nothing much to do with desire or love or even enjoyment of the act of sex. More along the lines of, "I'm gonna do it because I can and she cannot stop me, so there." And don't forget the thrill of the chase; and the feeling of being a grown-up. Mom wants to keep the daughter "safe" and "protected" from what mom sees as bad in the world. If they haven't had honest communication between them as to what each perceives as right, wrong, dangerous, safe, or even if life has any gray area, then there's going to be a problem.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 24, 2013 15:11:05 GMT -5
Your sister does not have to accept the overly-sexualized message our society sends to kids today. There is nothing wrong with advising our kids to wait to engage in adult activities until they are fully matured. I understand her logic. But at this point, when her daughter was 16 years old, she was slipping boys into her bedroom for a booty call. As a 17 year old, she has been drinking and the booty calls are in hotel rooms. Her abstinence messages are not getting through IMO. Good grief! Sis has already lost this battle. She just doesn't want to recognize it. There's nothing you can do to make her recognize it. She's got her head in the sand and she's determined to keep it there. Yep. That's my reading on it. My sister is all about control. I understand that because I am that way too. But after the last couple years, I realize that there are simply some things that you cannot control and no matter how much you kick and scream about it, the best thing you can do is damage control. I think that she needs to do some damage control.
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 24, 2013 15:15:19 GMT -5
"They're your kids, it's your choice. You don't need my permission" If she insists on having conversation about it after you've said all of these things then just be honest and say "Look. We just don't agree and I don't want to get into an argument with you about this." Can you talk to your niece privately about bc? Even if it's just using rubbers? Or will she tell your sister? I've had this happen with friends (don't have any sisters). One became a religious freak and although I still care very much about her I can't relate to her in any way. We almost never talk or visit when she is back here to visit her family because of it but we still love each other and we are always there for each other for the important stuff like cancer, death in the family, etc. I also have a very good friend who is having great difficulties with her 17 year old daughter. She gave me 3 options that were on the table on what they may do. She asked me what I'd do if I was her. I told her and she gave tons of reasons why that wouldn't work and when I brought to her attention the contradictions (she said when she was 18 she was on her own and could do it then) but the problems she claimed would be issues now would magically go away when she's 18? Not! So I just said "No skin off my nose. Do whatever you feel is best." She said "No! I really want and value your opinion!" I said "No you don't. You just want to argue which I hate!" I left out the part that that is why she is always butting heads with her daughter and DH.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Oct 24, 2013 15:22:11 GMT -5
*kittensaver shakes her head sadly*
We just had (another) very sad example of what happens when parents who want to "protect" their children live in denial and/or fail to educate them about the pitfalls of certain adult behaviors.
We live very close to a large religion-based university. Many parents send their children there because they fear "the evils" of "the Big U," and expect their kids to be protected and supported by the religious environment. Every year (without fail!) for the first couple of weekends of the school year, underage kids troll our neighborhood (sometimes in large groups) looking for house parties (they obviously can't go to bars to drink and can't drink in the dorms). We also have our share of drinking and driving mishaps those first few weeks - though TG nothing really horrible has happened in the last dozen or so years.
The kids quickly learn that they go to school in a very quiet residential neighborhood (that attracted their overprotective parents in the first place!) and move on to traveling (by car) across town to one of the two large (nationally recognized) "Big U" universities to start trolling those neighbohoods - where they find lots and lots of fraternities/sororities and house parties.
A few weekends ago, a young freshman female from the religious university was at one of those cross-town frat parties, got very drunk and sustained a life-threatening head injury when she fell off a table she was dancing on. Guess who the parents are blaming?
I hope your sister wakes up on time to realize she is NOT doing her daughter ANY favors by trying to shield her from life. Ignorance is waaaaaaaay more damaging than information. Too bad more parents don't realize this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2013 15:24:57 GMT -5
Have you tried eating her brain? ... It's possible my advice is tainted by zombification. More seriously, What she wants from you is validation. She knows hers is a minority viewpoint - beyond a certain level, it ceases to matter how insane that viewpoint is, the fact that it's widely derided makes adherence a matter of self-preservation. She wants to believe that she's raising her daughter right. She wants to believe that the school is corrupting her daughter. She wants someone to blame if and when her daughter becomes a teen mom out of wedlock. If your conscience won't let you just nod along with her - mine wouldn't - then you need to turn everything she says into a harangue of your own about something else... "You don't think the school should show videos like that...? I don't think these darn moles should tear up my lawn!" "Your daughter was raised better...? My lawn was laid better than these cotton-picking moles have made it! Look at these molehills! I got one of those sonic things you can - hey, don't interrupt, I let you talk - one of those sonic things that's supposed to keep them away, but does it work, nooooo..." Unless you actually want to keep talking to her, in which case pretending you're going through a tunnel, even on your home phone, may be your only hope. (I think the zombie 'advice' was better, sorry )
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Oct 24, 2013 15:35:33 GMT -5
I'm no prude, but I would be very upset if a teacher showed the UNCUT version of Blurred Lines in class. It's beyond my comprehension why the edited for T.V. version wasn't used instead, and even that is debatable for why on earth it would be appropriate. You can dissect the lyrics without being forced to watch completely naked women. Teachers have been fired for a lot less, like the teacher who used the song to choreograph a dance number for the cheer squad.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Oct 24, 2013 15:38:27 GMT -5
I think your sister also needs to realize that there is a big difference between condoning it, and excepting the fact that it's happening. She can except the fact her daughter is having sex, and get her the help she needs to be safe, without condoning the behavior.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Oct 24, 2013 15:42:09 GMT -5
How to divert?
She asked me what I thought (the blog entry was about her 17 year old daughter's creative writing class, where the lyrics to Blurred Lines were dissected). The teacher (female) had shown the uncut version of the video and my sister was appalled.
Response: yes, that is really appalling what an inappropriate thing to do. (continue listening)
I hadn't seen the video, so went looking myself. I thought it was a less than smart thing for the teacher to do, but I understood her motivation. She was trying to use current topics in order to engage the kids and I told my sister this. My sister is furious about this and is ready to take it to the school board. The only thing that is holding her back is that I think she is worried about the repercussions on her daughter.
Response: yes, there could be repercussions and you're smart to consider that. (continue listening)
After it's all said: Sounds like a tough situation. Good luck with whatever you decide and let me know how it turns out.
Now you have listened to her vent, agreed with her assessments and not pissed her off with how your life style choices are different than hers. But, what would sisterly love be without dissension...
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Oct 24, 2013 15:48:57 GMT -5
Maybe I'm wrong but I think your sister called you Mich because she knows her approach hasn't worked and she was hoping unconciously for you to help her. If she wasn't calling knowing her method didn't work then why specifically call the person she knows disagrees with her?
As the parent of an 18 year old her having a baby scares the crap out of me!
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 24, 2013 15:49:45 GMT -5
Now you have listened to her vent, agreed with her assessments and not pissed her off with how your life style choices are different than hers. But, what would sisterly love be without dissension...
It would have been fine if she had vented. But she was not only venting, she was asking me very pointed questions and she asked me what I thought.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 24, 2013 15:52:05 GMT -5
I started asking people "Do you want me to be honest or do you want me to say what you want to hear because I need to know which answer to give".
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