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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 19:10:28 GMT -5
That "scut work" is so essential to the functioning of society that even substantially immoral means to the end of having it performed become, not merely justifiable, but actively desirable.
Being desirable does not make it morally justifiable. To coerce or trick people into doing your dirty work is only justifiable in an amoral sense and most of us don't admit to living that way.
There is an assumption floating around that everyone gets a sense of value, accomplishment or meaning from "work". That is untrue of a significant portion of the population. The work gets done as a means to another end, not an accomplishment in and of itself. Those that do claim to have meaning to their work have infused that meaning and could do so with any task they chose.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 19:21:30 GMT -5
btw dj I do get the point of this thread and the point you are trying to sell despite not using 3 syllable words to express myself or writing dissertations every post. Even in abstract discussions there comes a point where you are distorting the criteria too much to push your view and imo you had passed that mark.
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 9, 2013 19:25:19 GMT -5
There's a lovely young man who works as a bagger at our local Publix grocery. He also schleps groceries to the car for those who wish that service. He's always got a smile and a greeting for all he sees. He has Down Syndrome. Is his work scut work? Perhaps, to you it is. Perhaps, to many it is. I can assure you, to him it is not.
Is cleaning the mess for a very ill, incontinent patient scut work? Maybe. Maybe, it's even a pain in the posterior to have to stop figuring a cardiac output, cardiac index, and pulmonary wedge pressure to take care of such a mess. For me, however, and for every good nurse I've ever known, it wasn't scut work, at all. It was a blessing to be able to help someone with something they were unable to take care of themselves. How often do most of us get that chance on an everyday basis? Do you believe it's a good opportunity? I always did. YMMV.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:02:04 GMT -5
i was earlier asked about debtors prison, and where this fell on the spectrum, and i put it between what we call slavery and scut work, on the freedom scale. i am not sure that was accurate, in retrospect. after all, if one lived a life of splendor on that unpaid money, that is more of a life than either a slave OR a scut worker. upon reflection, i think the indentured servant is further away from slavery than the scut worker. he made that debt. If it makes you feel better to think that indentured servants ran up credit card debt buying crab legs and pimped out clothing fine, but realize that is really really far from the thruth for the vast majority. Most were either "sold" by their relative who reaped the benefit if there was one, or just got out of having to take care of them. Or they were round up as criminals and sent to the colonies to be forced labor. In the beginning of the colonies getting someone to work for you was very difficlut. Most people just worked on their own families farm with no time to do paid employment. It was a big problem with what seemed like an easy solution. This is just wiki, cause it was easy to find, but it is historically accurate. truthfully, i have sort of a Hollywood, Dickensians image of indentured servancy. thanks for straightening me out.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:05:35 GMT -5
dj - I think you're at some risk of begging an important question about the intrinsic and instrumental value of work to the worker. At the very least, even homogenizing the workforce into interchangeable units, you're conflating the former and latter categories of value, which smacks of error.. maybe. i have discussed the basic value of work, elsewhere. i am actually adopting a contrarian position to the one i stated earlier for purposes of discussion, and say that there is, basically, work that NOBODY wants to do.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:09:05 GMT -5
jkapp raises a useful question, I think, in at least opening the door to the possibility that the slave might view his slavery differently in terms of its utility or intrinsic worth than might the drudgery his drudge - and that this subjective appreciation, in defiance of my earlier assertion, constitutes a valid metric for asserting the one enjoys some moral superiority over the other. have you read through this thread? because i discussed the perception angle in detail. and i asked the question: is it not possible, for someone who thinks little of freedom, to feel happy being a slave? i am not sure that the perceived happiness is actually that important to the argument. however, it DOES suggest that if you take a broad enough sampling, you will probably find people that actually prefer slavery over scut work.
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 9, 2013 20:10:06 GMT -5
I'm curious, dj. What work would you say NOBODY wants to do? I'm not saying there is not such thing, but I'm curious what you think such work might be.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:11:16 GMT -5
If you're thinking about bringing in anything from the many National Socialist philosophers or their proxies, I'd advise against it. Likewise if you decide to take "pro" on "Was slavery necessary for the founding of the United States?" or "Given the present state of many African nations, was the US slave trade a boon to the descendants of these nations?". Simply put, it is impossible to debate these subjects objectively on an open forum. Finally, if you're planning on going Star Trek with "Should artificial or virtual intelligences be granted 'human' rights?", just... don't. Aside from that, knock yourself out. no, i am just asking if the first salvo is over. i don't think it is. this thread warmed up in my 2 hours away.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:12:14 GMT -5
I'm curious, dj. What work would you say NOBODY wants to do? I'm not saying there is not such thing, but I'm curious what you think such work might be. imagine cleaning up people's messes. now imagine the grossest, filthiest, most toxic mess imaginable. now, imagine making scut wages doing it. how good is your imagination?
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:13:38 GMT -5
I think that depends on the person, the work being done, and the beneficiaries of said work, dj. One can grow as a person by providing for the needs of others and be useful, and even creative, while doing so. To the person(s) for whom you're cleaning up a mess, you're most certainly important. While it might seem like scut work to one, it can be very fulfilling to another. i am talking about "caring for people" (using your abstraction) that don't give a hill of beans for you, and treat you like the scut they think you are.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:15:34 GMT -5
mmhmm, mmhmm There is also the (to my mind more important) question of the intrinsic and instrumental worth of work to society. Harking back to dj's implicit libertarian argument for a higher rate of pay for menial labor, it should be obvious that society as a whole has greater need of "scut workers" than, say, estate agents or TV repairmen. ..or lawyers. an ideal society would VALUE work that is really unpleasant. instead, we hire "illegals" to do it. not joking.I hope it is neither redundant nor premature to float this notion: That "scut work" is so essential to the functioning of society that even substantially immoral means to the end of having it performed become, not merely justifiable, but actively desirable.interesting argument. mind if i save it for later?
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:17:39 GMT -5
That "scut work" is so essential to the functioning of society that even substantially immoral means to the end of having it performed become, not merely justifiable, but actively desirable.
Being desirable does not make it morally justifiable. To coerce or trick people into doing your dirty work is only justifiable in an amoral sense and most of us don't admit to living that way. corporations not only admit it, they have a feduciary responsibility to behave in that way.There is an assumption floating around that everyone gets a sense of value, accomplishment or meaning from "work". That is untrue of a significant portion of the population. The work gets done as a means to another end, not an accomplishment in and of itself. Those that do claim to have meaning to their work have infused that meaning and could do so with any task they chose. i have surveyed this question before, and i stand by what lb says here. some people, given the opportunity, would lie back on their couch and watch Oprah (or whatever replaced her) rather than work. they see no value in it at all.
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 9, 2013 20:19:25 GMT -5
I'm curious, dj. What work would you say NOBODY wants to do? I'm not saying there is not such thing, but I'm curious what you think such work might be. imagine cleaning up people's messes. now imagine the grossest, filthiest, most toxic mess imaginable. now, imagine making scut wages doing it. how good is your imagination? I don't need an imagination. I've seen some things, and cleaned them up, that would probably make you vomit. Toxic in the poisonous sense? No, not really. However, if you're talking about swabbing out a sewer, or something like that, I get your drift. I don't imagine many people would find that sort of thing uplifting; however, I can certainly imagine people who would do so with minimal complaint if it was the only honest work they could find.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:21:26 GMT -5
btw dj I do get the point of this thread and the point you are trying to sell despite not using 3 syllable words to express myself or writing dissertations every post. dissertation is a four syllable word. and i respect ALL posters, lb. i just don't want to argue about things that can't be compared. i THINK that menial labor and slavery CAN be compared. if you don't, that's cool- but it won't make for much of a debate.Even in abstract discussions there comes a point where you are distorting the criteria too much to push your view and imo you had passed that mark. no, i am just trying to make it a "fair comparison", or as "fair as possible". if you are going to watch a sporting event- do you want to watch some 24 year old olympic qualifier clobbering the crap out of some obese retirement age fellow, or do you want to watch two olympic qualifiers. limiting the scope of what "slavery" is, for purposes of argument, makes for a better debate. that is all. i hope that you understand that i am not advocating slavery. what i am trying to say is that i don't think scut work has much value EITHER to the individual performing it.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:23:09 GMT -5
There's a lovely young man who works as a bagger at our local Publix grocery. He also schleps groceries to the car for those who wish that service. He's always got a smile and a greeting for all he sees. He has Down Syndrome. yes.Is his work scut work? Perhaps, to you it is. Perhaps, to many it is. I can assure you, to him it is not. that's wonderful. maybe we need to breed older adults to make down's syndrome kids?Is cleaning the mess for a very ill, incontinent patient scut work? Maybe. Maybe, it's even a pain in the posterior to have to stop figuring a cardiac output, cardiac index, and pulmonary wedge pressure to take care of such a mess. For me, however, and for every good nurse I've ever known, it wasn't scut work, at all. It was a blessing to be able to help someone with something they were unable to take care of themselves. How often do most of us get that chance on an everyday basis? Do you believe it's a good opportunity? I always did. YMMV. i have already debated that point, and i am tired of it. i am not cut out for your trade, but God Bless Youse anyways.
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 9, 2013 20:23:45 GMT -5
There's little doubt there are some people who would do this. Yet, I don't believe they're anything more than a very small minority. Those who strive will sometimes be heard to say they'd love the chance to do nothing; however, when given that chance it's not long before they're looking for "something to do".
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:24:41 GMT -5
imagine cleaning up people's messes. now imagine the grossest, filthiest, most toxic mess imaginable. now, imagine making scut wages doing it. how good is your imagination? I don't need an imagination. I've seen some things, and cleaned them up, that would probably make you vomit. Toxic in the poisonous sense? No, not really. However, if you're talking about swabbing out a sewer, or something like that, I get your drift. I don't imagine many people would find that sort of thing uplifting; however, I can certainly imagine people who would do so with minimal complaint if it was the only honest work they could find. i think that term is very interesting. let's discuss it later. think Chernobyl Cleanup Worker. with insufficient shielding. think rendering plant cleanup. think of the foulest thing ever. and then think minimum wage.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 9, 2013 20:25:47 GMT -5
There's little doubt there are some people who would do this. Yet, I don't believe they're anything more than a very small minority. Those who strive will sometimes be heard to say they'd love the chance to do nothing; however, when given that chance it's not long before they're looking for "something to do". i am sure you will remember our many conversations on this. and i hope you will recall that my position on this thread is contrary to those discussions. it is that way for purposes of the discussion. i am advocating Devilry here. but there is a point to it.
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 9, 2013 20:26:30 GMT -5
Thing is, dj, this isn't all about you. This is, as I see it, as philosophical discussion that involves all of the human race and those things that motivate us, demotivate us, and downright drive us away!
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 9, 2013 20:27:52 GMT -5
There's little doubt there are some people who would do this. Yet, I don't believe they're anything more than a very small minority. Those who strive will sometimes be heard to say they'd love the chance to do nothing; however, when given that chance it's not long before they're looking for "something to do". i am sure you will remember our many conversations on this. and i hope you will recall that my position on this thread is contrary to those discussions. it is that way for purposes of the discussion. i am advocating Devilry here. but there is a point to it. LOL! Oh, I'm sure you are! I'm also sure you're not alone in doing so! There are many sides to a discussion like this, and many voices join the choir - inner voices and outer voices.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 20:30:50 GMT -5
no, i am just trying to make it a "fair comparison", or as "fair as possible". if you are going to watch a sporting event- do you want to watch some 24 year old olympic qualifier clobbering the crap out of some obese retirement age fellow, or do you want to watch two olympic qualifiers.
What you are doing is more akin to having Billy Jean and whathisface play tennis by different rules and then saying she plays better.
limiting the scope of what "slavery" is, for purposes of argument, makes for a better debate. that is all. i hope that you understand that i am not advocating slavery. what i am trying to say is that i don't think scut work has much value EITHER to the individual performing it.
No work has value until we assign it value. Some people, mmmhmmm seems to be one of them, assign value when their efforts have a positive impact for others. In contrast sports figures seem to feel a sense of accomplishment in setting records and being the best in the world at something even though there is nothing inherently valuable about being able to run a mile .5 seconds faster than the next guy.
But in furtherance of your assertion that any of us that work for wages are comparably enslaved, this is the result of allowing the accumulation of private property and being able to deny use of and access too said property to others. I'm not talking about clothes and homes and iphones, I mean things like land and food.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 20:34:35 GMT -5
corporations not only admit it, they have a feduciary responsibility to behave in that way.
That's why I said most of us. Corporations are actually a small percentage of society.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 9, 2013 20:43:48 GMT -5
I have to agree with DJ. Define it like this if you prefer: Get every adult in the US to fill out a survey that gives the descriptions and mean salaries of various occupations and asks respondents to sort them in order of preference as a career. Define any job with mean rank in the lowest quartile as "scut work". Ergo "scut work" is synonymous for "generally unpopular work". Is it possible for somebody to enjoy scut work? Absolutely. More power to anyone who does. We need more such people. But it's fair to say that scut work exists, even if it isn't perfectly correlated with happiness, fulfillment, mobility, influence, etc. ... Sort the following gifts in order of preference for receiving: a) $100,000,000 b) $ 25,000,000 c) $ 50,000,000 d) $ 75,000,000
Define the gift with mean rank in the lowest quartile as a "scut gift", Thus proving that "scut gifts" exist and $25,000,000 is such a gift.
If forced to rank order, then 25% of the jobs listed must be in the lowest quartile. I'm aware that the definition is relative, billis. I'm simply offering mmhmm an exact definition.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 21:13:14 GMT -5
... really? you don't see work that is something you really want to do, that makes you feel as if you are being creative, growing, and useful (maybe even....gasp....IMPORTANT) as a person is ANY DIFFERENT than work where you are basically cleaning up someone's mess? really? really really? I certainly see them as different. However, I do see them both as useful and think it is important that people will do both types of jobs well. This summer I walked to a far end of a highway rest stop to thank the person who was taking a break after having cleaned the toilet I just used to thank him for doing the work that he did so I could have a pleasant experience walking into that restroom. I do similar at every opportunity I have. Great. Not only does that person do a tough job, now they have to keep one eye open for crazed stalkers with nothing better to do with their time than to disconcert and perplex lavatory cleaning personnel.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 21:22:09 GMT -5
corporations not only admit it, they have a feduciary responsibility to behave in that way. That's why I said most of us. Corporations are actually a small percentage of society. Of course they are... they're just like antebellum plantation owners... a very small minority. (Are we counting each of the people enslaved in their service as "whole people" or as "3/4" of a person, or what? )
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 9, 2013 21:26:52 GMT -5
I certainly see them as different. However, I do see them both as useful and think it is important that people will do both types of jobs well. This summer I walked to a far end of a highway rest stop to thank the person who was taking a break after having cleaned the toilet I just used to thank him for doing the work that he did so I could have a pleasant experience walking into that restroom. I do similar at every opportunity I have. Great. Not only does that person do a tough job, now they have to keep one eye open for crazed stalkers with nothing better to do with their time than to disconcert and perplex lavatory cleaning personnel. Come on. Two 'likes' for a post spitting on a random act of kindness? Did you guys mistake the thumbs up button for a little trash can icon again?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 21:32:38 GMT -5
Great. Not only does that person do a tough job, now they have to keep one eye open for crazed stalkers with nothing better to do with their time than to disconcert and perplex lavatory cleaning personnel. Come on. Two 'likes' for a post spitting on a random act of kindness? Did you guys mistake the thumbs up button for a little trash can icon again? Virg, relax, we're not in competition. If I give you my "hot potato" will you stop pouting?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 21:34:04 GMT -5
I guess I should have challenged the use of the phrase "fiduciary responsibility" as well. It assumes that the needs of shareholders are a higher moral responsibility than those of employees, customers or society as a whole. A more accurate statement would be that corporations claim to have a fiduciary responsibility to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 21:36:23 GMT -5
Great. Not only does that person do a tough job, now they have to keep one eye open for crazed stalkers with nothing better to do with their time than to disconcert and perplex lavatory cleaning personnel. Come on. Two 'likes' for a post spitting on a random act of kindness? Did you guys mistake the thumbs up button for a little trash can icon again? It was funny
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 9, 2013 22:19:32 GMT -5
Come on. Two 'likes' for a post spitting on a random act of kindness? Did you guys mistake the thumbs up button for a little trash can icon again? Virg, relax, we're not in competition. If I give you my "hot potato" will you stop pouting? You can't seriously be characterizing people who thank the cleaning staff as "crazed stalkers". I realize that it might well be satire that went way the heck over my head, but please help settle my nerves by confirming that you're not being serious.
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